RE: The True Job Creators (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:58:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

He seems to be doing pretty well for himself, and bringing a lot of people along with him.  Might be worth listening to him.



Glad to hear this is your view, as ROMNEY is "doing pretty well for himself" as well, and "might be worth listening to" -- does that mean you'll be voting for ROMNEY then?!!  Oh wait... he's not a Lib-Idiot -- so I'm sure you'll be IGNORING your OWN advice.



Why should anyone listen to a vulture capitalist? Romney and the other rich kids who used their parents money to buy companies and destroy them, i.e. Bain Capital and fellow travelers, are the group most precisely to blame for what is wrong in the US today.

The nation, and the free world, was a much better place when a company with a stable stock price and a sub 5% profit marginwas considered a success not a target to be acquired, dismantled and whatever jobs are left shipped overseas.




Moonhead -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:02:35 PM)

On that level, welfare increases might actually prove a lot more beneficial than tax cuts for people who spend most of their outgoings outside of the country. If the scroungers have more money, and more scroungers can get access to the money, then they're more likely to spend than save it, and it will go into the service industry sector that's been touted as a serious replacement for manufacturing ever since the Reagan/monetarist economic miracle got rolling back in the early '80s.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:06:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

...most people will never have any taxable capital gains.



Really?!!  Last I checked, those low capital gains rates apply to every homeowner in America... every stock and bond sold in America (so they benefit every investor and 401 saver)... every business owner?!!  Maybe you could at least flirt with the concept of reality?!!





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:08:17 PM)

 
Why should anyone listen to the PROVEN FAILURE that is Baroccoli O'Failure?!! [8|]





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:11:05 PM)

No one in this thread is talking about listening to Obama (who is really Bush Light on these matters).

It's about following a better model in place of one that isn't working--a model that in fact is already proven to work, before we abandoned it a few decades back.





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:11:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

So riddle me this, Batman... how do "consumers" gain income in order to purchase goods?!!


From the jobs that aren't being created



By the Idiot-In-Chief, Baroccoli O'Failure!!!  [8|]





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:12:36 PM)

Again, no one in this thread (except you) is talking about listening to Obama (who is really Bush Light on these matters).

It's about following a better model in place of one that isn't working--a model that in fact is already proven to work, before we abandoned it a few decades back.





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:14:56 PM)

quote:

capital gains rates apply to every homeowner in America... every stock and bond sold in America (so they benefit every investor and 401 saver)


401k distributions are taxed as earned income, not capital gains.





DarkSteven -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:20:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You and me both, Steven. He's applied what I've been doing in my business work to a macro-economic scale. You'd be amazed what you can start on a shoe-string, and I help people start to see that and get going.



Agreed. I recall a book on entrepreneurship stating that if you identify a solid market gap and have a good management team for a viable business, investment money will somehow get there.
quote:



We are resource rich, and investment is just not a problem here--tight credit is.


And here we disagree. Credit is nothing more than the ability to borrow. Loosening credit is what caused the crash that took out the entire banking industry.

Hanauer's premise is that spending ability should be based on cash position, not borrowing ability. I agree.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:21:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's about following a better model in place of one that isn't working.



You can't build on "model" on asking consumers who are unemployed/underemployed (or scared shitless) to SPEND what they don't have -- that is the basic flaw Nicky NumbNuts' rant.

This may help explain why...

The Conference Board Consumer Confidence
Index Virtually Unchanged

24 Apr. 2012

The Conference Board Consumer Confidence Index®, which had declined slightly in March, was virtually unchanged in April. The Index now stands at 69.2 (1985=100), down slightly from 69.5 in March. The Expectations Index declined to 81.1 from 82.5, while the Present Situation Index improved to 51.4 from 49.9 last month.

The monthly Consumer Confidence Survey®, based on a probability-design random sample, is conducted for The Conference Board by Nielsen, a leading global provider of information and analytics around what consumers buy and watch. The cutoff date for the preliminary results was April 12.

Says Lynn Franco, Director of The Conference Board Consumer Research Center: “Consumer Confidence was virtually unchanged in April, following a modest decline in March. As was the case last month, the slight dip was prompted by a moderation in consumers’ short-term outlook, while their assessment of current conditions continued to improve. Overall, consumers are more upbeat about the state of the economy, but they remain cautiously optimistic.”

Consumers’ assessment of current conditions improved in April. Those claiming business conditions are “good” increased to 15.3 percent from 14.3 percent.  However, those claiming business conditions are “bad” edged up to 33.5 percent from 33.2 percent. Consumers’ appraisal of the job market remained mixed. Those stating jobs are “hard to get” declined to 37.5 percent from 40.7 percent, while those stating jobs are “plentiful” decreased to 8.4 percent from 9.0 percent.

Consumers were, once again, slightly less optimistic about the short-term outlook. Those expecting business conditions to improve over the next six months decreased to 18.8 percent from 19.3 percent, while those anticipating business conditions will worsen increased to 14.2 percent from 13.7 percent.

Consumers’ outlook for the labor market was less upbeat. Those anticipating more jobs in the months ahead decreased to 16.9 percent from 17.4 percent, however, those anticipating fewer jobs decreased to 18.0 percent from 18.5 percent. The proportion of consumers expecting an increase in their incomes declined to 14.0 percent from 15.5 percent.

http://www.conference-board.org/data/consumerconfidence.cfm


What Little Nicky is proposing is no different from what the Bush Administration pushed immediately after 9-11.  The difference is, the current economy, unemployment/under employment rate, and consumer confidence -- that's why urging consumers to SPEND, as Nicky Idiot is proposing, is NOT a "model" for anything but fantasy.  Again, people CAN'T spend what they don't have -- or are fearful of losing.  That's why job creation has to come from BUSINESS.  After more Americans are EMPLOYED/EARNING AN INCOME, then you can turn efforts/incentives to boost consumer spending.  It just ain't gonna work now... consumer confidence is too low.





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:22:20 PM)

Steven, just a misunderstanding here. I'm talking about non-cash resources as an alternative to borrowing cash.





DarkSteven -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:23:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


So riddle me this, Batman... how do "consumers" gain income in order to purchase goods?!!




Allocation of resources. Granting more money to the wealthy, who are liable to sock it away, is a poor alternative to giving it to the poor/middle class, who are more liable to spend it. By granting tax cuts to the rich (which will be paid for from the country at large sometime down the road), we are stupidly assigning resources to the place they accomplish the least good.

Edited to add pre-emptively: A common conservative argument, and one I expect to see here momentarily, is that the government has no right to allocate resources in any manner. I would like to say here that that's a major part of government, and the tax structure itself is about nothing more than taking resources from the private sector, and then distributing them to places to accomplish governmental goals.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:25:12 PM)

quote:

It's about following a better model in place of one that isn't working--a model that in fact is already proven to work, before we abandoned it a few decades back.


Reality is, those jobs aren't appearing. And it started with Bush tax cuts, unfunded structural spending, and building on a policy of trickle-down already historically proven false.





servitor1A -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:30:16 PM)

RE: Nick Hanauer's assertion: "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer - German philosopher (1788 - 1860)




erieangel -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:30:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


You really would do well to learn the difference between FACTS and the OPINIONS.

So riddle me this, Batman... how do "consumers" gain income in order to purchase goods?!!




So riddle me this, if you're so smart...why did so many businesses invest in their own business and grow the economy during the 40s and 50s when taxes were astronomical as compared to today's taxes?





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:30:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Granting more money to the wealthy...



How is "more" money being "granted" to the "wealthy"?!!





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:34:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

So riddle me this, if you're so smart...why did so many businesses invest in their own business and grow the economy during the 40s and 50s when taxes were astronomical as compared to today's taxes?



Ummm... if you were so smart, you'd know that NOBODY -- got that? -- NOBODY paid those "astronomical" tax rates!!!  There were more holes in the tax code than Swiss Cheese!!!  Also, there were not all the insane Government regulations that businesses today have to deal with.  Thus, HIGHER RETURN ON INVESTMENT.





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:37:14 PM)

quote:

NOBODY paid those "astronomical" tax rates!!! There were more holes in the tax code than Swiss Cheese!


In that case, all the more reason to return to those days then, if everyone wins.





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:38:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Reality is, those jobs aren't appearing. And it started with Bush tax cuts...



WRONG.  Following the Bush tax cuts, we saw the largest GDP growth in some 20 years. 





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:41:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In that case, all the more reason to return to those days then, if everyone wins.



Wait... you're expecting the IRS to re-open all those closed tax loop-holes?!!  You're kidding, right?!!  Hey, if you can pull that off, then I'll vote for YOU for President!!! [8D][:D] lol





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