RE: The True Job Creators (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:41:44 PM)

We have GDP growth now--in fact, 11 consecutive quarters of it. Mainly due to improvements in productivity in lieu of investment.

But that isn't translating into "trickle down" jobs. That's Nick's point.




Hillwilliam -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:43:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Reality is, those jobs aren't appearing. And it started with Bush tax cuts...



WRONG.  Following the Bush tax cuts, we saw the largest GDP growth in some 20 years. 



Here's GDP from 1950 to present.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010USb_13s1li0181024_622cs__US_Gross_Domestic_Product_GDP_History

Wanna show how Dubya helped it so much?

Looks like in about 06, it dropped



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:45:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We have GDP growth now...



Uh huh... list the "GDP Growth" numbers for the past 20 years and you'll see how ANEMIC growth has been.  I can put a penny in your pocket every month -- and that would be considered "Growth" too -- but hardly anything to brag about.




vincentML -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:46:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Reality is, those jobs aren't appearing. And it started with Bush tax cuts...



WRONG.  Following the Bush tax cuts, we saw the largest GDP growth in some 20 years. 




But not job growth in the US. Those manufacturing jobs went to China. With Bush we had eight years of job stagnation at best.



Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:53:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We have GDP growth now...



Uh huh... list the "GDP Growth" numbers for the past 20 years and you'll see how ANEMIC growth has been.  I can put a penny in your pocket every month -- and that would be considered "Growth" too -- but hardly anything to brag about.



But again, that's the point. This is not the kind of growth we could be having if we were following an inclusive model that allowed consumers to consume more fully--let alone start more small businesses, the real engine of the U.S. economy.

All we've done instead is erase the lowest unemployment rate since the 1960s.

It's counterproductive--for the wealthy as well as for the middle class. It's not good business; it's just short term thinking.

That's Nick's point.

[image]http://www.buoyanteconomies.com/Impact2.gif[/image]



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 1:36:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Wanna show how Dubya helped it so much?



Yes... Source: http://www.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?ReqID=9&step=1


[image]local://upfiles/687741/C1703D3E47FD4122A0FC00E3B02D2EA5.jpg[/image]



DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 1:42:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

...most people will never have any taxable capital gains.



Really?!!  Last I checked, those low capital gains rates apply to every homeowner in America... every stock and bond sold in America (so they benefit every investor and 401 saver)... every business owner?!!  Maybe you could at least flirt with the concept of reality?!!



You do not pay cap gains on a primary rsidence sold if you immediately buy another. That exemption keeps most americans from paying any cap gains.

A 401(k) pays no cap gains taxes, under normal circumstances, as the disbursements are treated as regular income not cap gains.

A business owner would only pay capital gains if he sold real property or other eligible non inventory items (i.e. stocks, bonds)

So no most people never pay any capital gains taxes.



Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 1:49:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Wanna show how Dubya helped it so much?



Yes... Source: http://www.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?ReqID=9&step=1


[image]local://upfiles/687741/C1703D3E47FD4122A0FC00E3B02D2EA5.jpg[/image]

This chart shows the plunge under Bush into recession and the recovery under Obama.

But you still don't get it. This is not about Bush or Obama or Romney--all the old model.

If you're unhappy with the status quo--that's what Nick's talking about. If you think everything's great, then what's the problem?



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 3:27:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

This chart shows the plunge under Bush into recession and the recovery under Obama.



The "chart shows" the effect of the Bush Tax Cuts -- a SURGE in GDP... just as I'd stated.

As the economy taking a dump in 2008?!!  Yes... that's when it crashed -- but you fail to acknowledge how much WORSE it got under Obama, as well as how CRAPPY the supposed "recovery" has been.  Even Prez O'Fuckup states the recovery has been slow -- this is not new news.

quote:



But you still don't get it. This is not about Bush or Obama or Romney--all the old model.



1)  No, YOU still don't get it... my reply concerning "Bush" was in response to a question of the Bush tax cuts having "helped" the economy after 9-11, and the reference to Obama was in response to YOUR comment about GDP Growth.

2)  As to said referenced "old model", I addressed why I don't believe Nicky-Boi's "model" is sound in POST #30.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 3:36:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But not job growth in the US. Those manufacturing jobs went to China. With Bush we had eight years of job stagnation at best.



Unemployment was fairly low during the prior administration (see chart), but certainly you're CORRECT that many manufacturing sailed off to China during that time as well.

I seem to recall that during that time something was CHANGED (in the Tax Code maybe???) that made it far more profitable for companies to do business overseas -- but I can't honestly say what that was?!!  I just remember hearing that, under the Bush Administration, it became more profitable for companies outsource overseas.  I never researched it, so I can't comment if this was true or not.  Also, I believe it was the Clinton Administration the really opened the doors to doing business with China -- but again, I don't know the specifics.

[image]local://upfiles/687741/673840900B59480A96B5C920A5B68B33.jpg[/image]





Yachtie -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 3:41:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

So riddle me this, if you're so smart...why did so many businesses invest in their own business and grow the economy during the 40s and 50s when taxes were astronomical as compared to today's taxes?




That one is easy. Europe and Japan (and GB) were in shambles. They were a ready made market for everything from capital goods to shoes and socks. Exports were the game and the US was the only game in town. It's the situation where the broken window fallacy is no fallacy. The US had a virtual monopoly, or at minimum the lion's share, on the rebuilding of Europe and Japan.

Also, the transfer from wartime to consumer goods allowed people to acquire what had been previously allocated to war production; i.e. washing machines instead of tanks. Domestic demand was ready made but what really allowed for the boom was exports.

The boom of the late 40s and 50s was not because of high taxes but despite them. A boom like that is one of the rare times a government can get away with high taxes.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 4:19:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

That one is easy. Europe and Japan (and GB) were in shambles. They were a ready made market for everything from capital goods to shoes and socks. Exports were the game and the US was the only game in town. It's the situation where the broken window fallacy is no fallacy. The US had a virtual monopoly, or at minimum the lion's share, on the rebuilding of Europe and Japan.

Also, the transfer from wartime to consumer goods allowed people to acquire what had been previously allocated to war production; i.e. washing machines instead of tanks. Domestic demand was ready made but what really allowed for the boom was exports.

The boom of the late 40s and 50s was not because of high taxes but despite them. A boom like that is one of the rare times a government can get away with high taxes.



[sm=agree.gif]




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 4:46:24 PM)

quote:

The "chart shows" the effect of the Bush Tax Cuts -- a SURGE in GDP... just as I'd stated.

As the economy taking a dump in 2008?!! Yes... that's when it crashed -- but you fail to acknowledge how much WORSE it got under Obama


Of course I do. From the 2003 high, when the Bush tax cuts were passed, GDP dropped continually and into recession.

Obama didn't take office until late January 2009. From that time, your graph shows GDP continually improving, into full recovery (positive growth) in just three quarters, and in positive territory ever since.




erieangel -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 5:28:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

So riddle me this, if you're so smart...why did so many businesses invest in their own business and grow the economy during the 40s and 50s when taxes were astronomical as compared to today's taxes?



Ummm... if you were so smart, you'd know that NOBODY -- got that? -- NOBODY paid those "astronomical" tax rates!!!  There were more holes in the tax code than Swiss Cheese!!!  Also, there were not all the insane Government regulations that businesses today have to deal with.  Thus, HIGHER RETURN ON INVESTMENT.




Wrong.  It had more to do with re-investing in the company rather than paying out huge salaries, dividends earned businesses bigger tax breaks--that is the tax policy we have to bring back.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 5:36:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

...graph shows GDP continually improving, into full recovery



Ummm... "full recovery"?!!  That's about as close to delusionary as it gets -- but if that's the fairy-tale you want to believe, then go right ahead.  Again, even Prez O'Failure has stated the opposite!!!  [8|]




DarkSteven -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 5:52:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Wanna show how Dubya helped it so much?



Yes... Source: http://www.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?ReqID=9&step=1


[image]local://upfiles/687741/C1703D3E47FD4122A0FC00E3B02D2EA5.jpg[/image]


MSLA, your link took me to the main page, not to that specific graph. Could you give me the options selected to produce that graph?

I'm honestly having a hard tile understanding what is shown in the graph. The small numbers as percents and the fact that there are negative numbers indicate to me that it could be changes in GDP rate, but I would expect the GDP itself to be more telling.

As far as the tax cuts and change of President, no biggie.

1. Nobody said that the tax cuts would not affect demand. The contention was that they are an ineffective stimulus, relatively speaking, that giving money/tax breaks to the middle class/poor will affect more than giving it elsewhere. Your graph shows that giving tax cuts is more effective than doing nothing, not more effective than more progressive distribution.
2. The markets hate uncertainty. I am very surprised that the graph shows that when Bush took office from Clinton, there was no similar nervous dip.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 5:56:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Wrong



Yes, you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!!  But by all means... feel free to believe whatever nonsensical delusion suits you, but that doesn't change history, or reality of (i) low government involvement/regulation, (ii) HUGE consumer demand around the world, and (iii) tax loop-holes you could (and everyone did) drive a truck through -- resulting in a HUGE return on investiment. 

What the Loony-Libs can never seem to understand is NOBODY goes into business to "create jobs" -- they go into business to MAKE MONEY!!!  Remove that probability, and POOF... high unemployment, just as we have now.  Fuck-up O'Failure and his Administration-of-IDIOTS have done near everything possible to DESTROY any incentive for business to invest/re-invest because O'Fuck-up will simply steal MORE from them, while dually making it more expensive to even stay in business.  But again, feel free to bask in whatever funny-colored fantasy sky suits best in Loony-Liberal-Land. [8|]




DarkSteven -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 6:15:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

What the Loony-Libs can never seem to understand is NOBODY goes into business to "create jobs" -- they go into business to MAKE MONEY!!!  Remove that probability, and POOF... high unemployment, just as we have now.  Fuck-up O'Failure and his Administration-of-IDIOTS have done near everything possible to DESTROY any incentive for business to invest/re-invest because O'Fuck-up will simply steal MORE from them, while dually making it more expensive to even stay in business.  But again, feel free to bask in whatever funny-colored fantasy sky suits best in Loony-Liberal-Land. [8|]



Calm down.

1. Your contention is that the driver to start a business and make it successful is purely monetary. I dispute that - a lot of it is that entrepreneurs don't like to have to report to others and have a drive to succeed and control.

And if your entire argument is that entrepreneurs should be financially rewarded for making money by creating jobs, then why reward the slugs that earn big bucks and did NOT create jobs? Make a new tax rate that is tied to job creation - no need to reward Romney types that make tons of money through downsizing and offshoring, as well as the banker types that earn big salaries without creating jobs, etc.

2. Again, your argument is that companies are created by profit, and the more profit, the more companies (and jobs). Again, I hold that companies are created by consumer demand. Note also that marginal tax rates never exceed 100% - in other words, the more money you make, the more you keep after taxes. Ironic that the GOP, which states that survival is too easy for those on the bottom and needs to be made harder, also states that becoming wealthy is too hard and needs to be made easier.



Hillwilliam -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 6:47:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

What the Loony-Libs can never seem to understand is NOBODY goes into business to "create jobs" -- they go into business to MAKE MONEY!!!  Remove that probability, and POOF... high unemployment, just as we have now.  Fuck-up O'Failure and his Administration-of-IDIOTS have done near everything possible to DESTROY any incentive for business to invest/re-invest because O'Fuck-up will simply steal MORE from them, while dually making it more expensive to even stay in business.  But again, feel free to bask in whatever funny-colored fantasy sky suits best in Loony-Liberal-Land. [8|]



Calm down.



Some people don't know how to calm down. if someone says that their favorite pundit might be fudging the numbers a bit then it's LIES LIES LIES LIES.

Bluntly, MSLA's graph showed 1 quarter of fast growth and then an abrupt plunge into a recession after the Tax cuts. 2 quarters after Dubya was out of office, things started improving. They've now gone from shitty to bad.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 7:01:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


Wrong... as usual. [8|]




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