RE: The True Job Creators (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 9:30:25 PM)

Businesses are created by fulfilling needs. Find a need, match up a skill and fill it. Build from there. More people should. Many do---small businesses are the majority of business in the U.S.

Deciding I'd like to open yet another pizza joint in town and throwing money at it doesn't create a successful business--or jobs, for long.

The point of the OP is that increasing the take home of the wealthiest Americans doesn't create jobs. And cutting it doesn't cost jobs. Yes, there needs to be investment, but that's covered. What's missing is consumer spending. That's 2/3 of the economy.

And that's where increasing take home would do the most good, if allocating resources is our intent. That's where the new job creation would come from.





LookieNoNookie -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:08:45 PM)

quote:

I have started or helped start, dozens of businesses and initially hired lots of people.


Bud....I don't know where you're coming from....

I own 3 businesses....1 regional (Seattle), 1 national and 1 international.

NONE of which were started by "consumers" (more evidence that you have absolutely no clue)....all of which were started because there were consumers....willing to consume my product(s).

That you claim to have started "dozens" of businesses I debate in whole. We can't prove or disprove any of the above here....I've debated you for years. Some of your comments were and remain unadulterated bullshit.

You have absolutely no clue where and when as pertains to business.

I don't need to nor will I hold you accountable to or for any of the above (because you're simply and more than uninformed) but....when you desire to bring an argument as to business....please bring something better to the table than "I've done" or "I can" because it's more than clear you haven't and you can't.

Make music bud....argue that there are numerous reasons that business should be or shouldn't be any number of things you wish it/they were...but please...until you have a clue (as to business)....make music.

(Please).




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:11:18 PM)

quote:

That you claim to have started "dozens" of businesses I debate. We can't prove or disprove any of the above here.


Sure we can.

For starters, we can establish that you can't read. The OP, and the section you quote, are the words of Nick Hanauer, who's bio even STARTS the fucking OP:

Nick Hanauer is a founder of Second Avenue Partners, a venture capital company in Seattle specializing in early state startups and emerging technology. He has helped launch more than 20 companies, including aQuantive Inc. and Amazon.com, and is the co-author of two books, “The True Patriot” and “The Gardens of Democracy.”


You can Google Nick and check out his claims. Enjoy.

But I'm pretty sure Amazon is a successful business, and he just might know a thing or two about creating them.

Not as much as you, of course. Who could? You don't even have time to read. But he's doing OK for himself.

I'll bet he can even read. Amazon does encourage that, you know.





LookieNoNookie -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:18:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

That you claim to have started "dozens" of businesses I debate. We can't prove or disprove any of the above here.


Sure we can.

For starters, we can establish that you can't read. The OP, and the section you quote, are the words of Nick Hanauer, who's bio even STARTS the fucking OP:

Nick Hanauer is a founder of Second Avenue Partners, a venture capital company in Seattle specializing in early state startups and emerging technology. He has helped launch more than 20 companies, including aQuantive Inc. and Amazon.com, and is the co-author of two books, “The True Patriot” and “The Gardens of Democracy.”


You can Google Nick and check out his claims. Enjoy.




Of course. Quoting a fellow who grew a company from 10 million annual sales to 300 million annual sales qualifies you as having started "dozens of businesses".

Right....ok....I get it now.

Thanks for clarifying.

Sorry....I clearly missed that.

My error.

(What was I thinking?)




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:21:52 PM)

Yet again, you incredibly stubborn moron, those are quoted words.

You do understand that when someone is quoting, that someone isn't actually saying the words, right? When I quote Mark Twain saying he was a steamboat pilot, that doesn't mean I'm claiming to be a steamboat pilot. Do you see how that works?

EVERYONE else on this thread managed to pick up that distinction. Perhaps one of them can explain it to you.





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 1:14:43 PM)

If the floor show is over, perhaps back to the topic.

Why do people cling to the notion that tax cuts at the top create jobs, when they aren't, and haven't been?





Owner59 -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 1:41:22 PM)

 
"Facebook flop hurts small investors' trust in stocks"


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/25/us-facebook-retail-idUSBRE84O14A20120525


"Facebook, banks sued over pre-IPO analyst calls"


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/23/us-facebook-lawsuit-idUSBRE84M0RK20120523


"Shareholders sue Facebook, NYSE comes calling"


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/24/net-us-facebook-lawsuit-idUSBRE84M0RK20120524


The twue job cwiators.....[8|]


Maybe for law firms.....






Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 1:47:12 PM)

Doesn't that belong on the Facebook thread?
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4125573/tm.htm

I don't see how it pertains to this one.
quote:

The twue job cwiators.....

Over 3500 as of May 2012.

But in brief, investing in an Internet company with no plans for how to make money moving forward is simply a gamble. You don't need analysts to tell you that. If that "shakes faith in stocks," then some people have a lot to learn about basic investing. Several books would do the job nicely.

People need to stop trying to make a killing and return to value investing.

Anything to offer on THIS thread?




DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 2:07:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If the floor show is over, perhaps back to the topic.

Why do people cling to the notion that tax cuts at the top create jobs, when they aren't, and haven't been?

If you repeat a lie often enough some people will come to believe it. The GOP has embraced their mentor Goebbels' strategy and run with it.




Moonhead -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 2:09:08 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: Lewis Carroll

"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.
"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What i tell you three times is true."




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 2:12:26 PM)

And yet....no jobs.




Moonhead -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 2:14:07 PM)

Nope.
But they've convinced the cult that there are too jobs and the only reason they don't have a paying gig is that the Kenyan is prioritising immigrants over Americans for gainful employment.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 4:21:32 PM)

Mainly, they feel that if we don't cut more taxes for the wealthy, we won't have jobs, and that if we address our deficit with revenue, we'll lose jobs.

That's all crap, of course. We managed to "struggle" through the 90s. The argument then was that the surplus should go back to those who paid taxes (no concern for the deficit then either). Now it's we need to tax cuts to stimulate job growth (though it isn't working). Good or bad, it's important to cut taxes, especially at the top!

There is no trickle-down. There never was. There *IS* a lot of being trickled on.....




PeonForHer -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 5:28:51 PM)

FR

I've got used to the fact that threads in this forum can't mention Marx, no matter how much they seem to me to cry out for it (specifically, and most commonly, in regards to Marx's thesis that the ruling class will always justify its greed as 'natural', and best for society as a whole). But what really flummoxes me is that not even John Maynard Keynes can get a mention. 'Enlightened selfishness', that's to be dumped as lefty garbage now, as well?

What is this? Does even Keynesian economics fall foul of the Overton window, USA applied? I mean, really. It does seem that, in the USA, there's only blithering New Right economics, or there's goddamned sonofabitch Rooskie communism, and nothing in between. It's nutty.




mnottertail -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 5:52:41 PM)

interestingly enough, most communist systems create jobs (albiet thru inefficiency) ....

But by god, if its jobs you boys want.....




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 8:12:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

interestingly enough, most communist systems create jobs (albiet thru inefficiency) ....

But by god, if its jobs you boys want.....

Here that's called military contracts for things the military doesn't even want.






LookieNoNookie -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/25/2012 9:44:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Finally, someone who gets it.

Nick Hanauer is a founder of Second Avenue Partners, a venture capital company in Seattle specializing in early state startups and emerging technology. He has helped launch more than 20 companies, including aQuantive Inc. and Amazon.com, and is the co-author of two books, “The True Patriot” and “The Gardens of Democracy.”

It is astounding how significantly one idea can shape a society and its policies. Consider this one.

If taxes on the rich go up, job creation will go down.

This idea is an article of faith for republicans and seldom challenged by democrats and has shaped much of today's economic landscape.

But sometimes the ideas that we know to be true are dead wrong. For thousands of years people were sure that earth was at the center of the universe. It's not, and an astronomer who still believed that it was, would do some lousy astronomy.

In the same way, a policy maker who believed that the rich and businesses are "job creators" and therefore should not be taxed, would make equally bad policy.

I have started or helped start, dozens of businesses and initially hired lots of people. But if no one could have afforded to buy what we had to sell, my businesses would all have failed and all those jobs would have evaporated.

That's why I can say with confidence that rich people don't create jobs, nor do businesses, large or small. What does lead to more employment is a "circle of life" like feedback loop between customers and businesses. And only consumers can set in motion this virtuous cycle of increasing demand and hiring. In this sense, an ordinary middle-class consumer is far more of a job creator than a capitalist like me.

So when businesspeople take credit for creating jobs, it's a little like squirrels taking credit for creating evolution. In fact, it's the other way around.

Anyone who's ever run a business knows that hiring more people is a capitalists course of last resort, something we do only when increasing customer demand requires it. In this sense, calling ourselves job creators isn't just inaccurate, it's disingenuous.

That's why our current policies are so upside down. When you have a tax system in which most of the exemptions and the lowest rates benefit the richest, all in the name of job creation, all that happens is that the rich get richer.

Since 1980 the share of income for the richest Americans has more than tripled while effective tax rates have declined by close to 50%.

If it were true that lower tax rates and more wealth for the wealthy would lead to more job creation, then today we would be drowning in jobs. And yet unemployment and under-employment is at record highs.

Another reason this idea is so wrong-headed is that there can never be enough superrich Americans to power a great economy. The annual earnings of people like me are hundreds, if not thousands, of times greater than those of the median American, but we don't buy hundreds or thousands of times more stuff. My family owns three cars, not 3,000. I buy a few pairs of pants and a few shirts a year, just like most American men. Like everyone else, we go out to eat with friends and family only occasionally.

I can't buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can't buy any new clothes or cars or enjoy any meals out. Or to make up for the decreasing consumption of the vast majority of American families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs and trapped by stagnant or declining wages.

Here's an incredible fact. If the typical American family still got today the same share of income they earned in 1980, they would earn about 25% more and have an astounding $13,000 more a year. Where would the economy be if that were the case?

Significant privileges have come to capitalists like me for being perceived as "job creators" at the center of the economic universe, and the language and metaphors we use to defend the fairness of the current social and economic arrangements is telling. For instance, it is a small step from "job creator" to "The Creator". We did not accidentally choose this language. It is only honest to admit that calling oneself a "job creator" is both an assertion about how economics works and the a claim on status and privileges.

The extraordinary differential between a 15% tax rate on capital gains, dividends, and carried interest for capitalists, and the 35% top marginal rate on work for ordinary Americans is a privilege that is hard to justify without just a touch of deification

We've had it backward for the last 30 years. Rich businesspeople like me don't create jobs. Rather they are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop animated by middle-class consumers, and when they thrive, businesses grow and hire, and owners profit. That's why taxing the rich to pay for investments that benefit all is a great deal for both the middle class and the rich.

So here's an idea worth spreading.

In a capitalist economy, the true job creators are consumers, the middle class. And taxing the rich to make investments that grow the middle class, is the single smartest thing we can do for the middle class, the poor and the rich.




Taxes currently are around 15% of GDP.

Historically, they're around 18 - 21%.

Tax collection is at an historical low because.....incomes are down and....evasion is up.

I'm a Republican so....I should (so they tell me) be for lower taxes.

Most (higher income types) "should be" for lower taxes....and in fact, most of those (myself included) with higher incomes have told the Feds...."tax us".

Most of the folks with higher incomes recognize that they're getting a spectacular deal.

Most of those folks are eager to pay more.

But....we (they) don't want to deal with union gigs (federal mandates on road jobs) wherein which they pay 20 bucks for 8 bucks worth of work (Davis Bacon Act).

And you shouldn't either.

I'd love to pay more.....but like you, I don't want it wasted.




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