RE: The True Job Creators (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 12:39:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail



Strangely enough, the "homeless" are NOT driving our financial markets -- imagine that?!!




Nor are the  driving financial markets creating jobs, imagine that too!!!!!

How fuckin' strange is that?




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 12:48:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Fracking, which allows drillers to get gas and oil from shale deep underground, triggered a revolution. Gas production in the US has been setting new highs, and as supply overwhelmed demand, prices have collapsed. Gas in storage is at a record high for this time of the year, and some doom-and-gloom prophets maintain that storage will reach capacity this fall, and that producers won’t be able to get rid of their gas and will have to flare it, pushing its price to zero. ...

Turns out, the shale gas revolution is an uneconomic activity even at much higher prices and is sustainable only for a limited time and only by blowing through loads of borrowed money. Now debt has piled up, cash flow is negative, and solvency risks are gathering on the horizon.

Meanwhile, the low price of gas has bent the demand curve: utilities are shifting massively from coal to gas for power generation. Their demand is eating through the record amount in storage and will clash later this year with diminishing production. It’s a classic example of how a price that is too low will spike, but only after a monumental massacre in the industry. Read.... Havoc and Opportunity in Natural Gas.


Just some food for thought.

Excellent. Thanks for this.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:31:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So that one share of GE will cost you, the etrade way, $529.99 ($19 for the stock, 9.99 commission and $500 to open an account).



Oh my GAWD... clearly you know absolutely NOTHING about trading, let alone BANKING!!!  Pssst... as much of a shock as this might be for you, ummm... you do realize the $500 goes into a BANK ACCOUNT... to FUND any trades you might want to make... and that you DON'T have to spend ALL $500 right?!!  Have you always been this completely ignorant about finance?!! [8|]



The $500 is a minimum balance. To keep the brokerage account open that money is tied up.


WRONG... WRONG... WRONG!!!  Once again, you PRETEND as if you know what you're blathering on about, and yet ONCE AGAIN... you show how absolutely CLUELESS you are about finance.  The $500 is to FUND the account when opening it, NOTHING MORE -- there is NO "MINIMUM BALANCE" TO "KEEP THE BROKERAGE ACCOUNT OPEN" AS YOU ALLEGE!!!  Got that?!!  And anyone reading this can simply contact eTrade to confirm you don't have a clue as to what you're spouting off about here -- yet AGAIN!!! [8|]



from etrade
quote:


NOTE: For E*TRADE Securities accounts (except retirement and custodial), an account minimum deposit of either at least $500 in cash or a deposit of securities is required within 60 days of account opening for the account to remain active

https://express.etrade.com/app/brokerage/page1B-1-2-accttype



BULLSHIT... lie as much as you like, but again, ANYONE (including you) can simply pick-up the damn phone -- or even easier... chat with a Customer Service Rep online -- to quickly prove you AGAIN don't have a damn clue about what your blathering on about.  Learn the difference between a FUNDING MINIMUM and a MINIMUM BALANCE, and quit spreading bullshit because your ego prohibits you from admitting you're fucking WRONG. [8|]





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:35:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nor are the  driving financial markets creating jobs, imagine that too!!!!!



As I've stated a couple times in this thread... I think (i.e., a theory) both the SCOTUS' ruling on the Healthcare Bill, as well as the pending Presidential election, have placed many a business in a holding-pattern of sorts.  To test my theory, I'm waiting to see how the markets react following the SCOTUS' ruling -- assuming the HC Bill is found unconstitutional, that is.





Moonhead -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:36:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Fracking, which allows drillers to get gas and oil from shale deep underground, triggered a revolution. Gas production in the US has been setting new highs, and as supply overwhelmed demand, prices have collapsed. Gas in storage is at a record high for this time of the year, and some doom-and-gloom prophets maintain that storage will reach capacity this fall, and that producers won’t be able to get rid of their gas and will have to flare it, pushing its price to zero. ...

Turns out, the shale gas revolution is an uneconomic activity even at much higher prices and is sustainable only for a limited time and only by blowing through loads of borrowed money. Now debt has piled up, cash flow is negative, and solvency risks are gathering on the horizon.

Meanwhile, the low price of gas has bent the demand curve: utilities are shifting massively from coal to gas for power generation. Their demand is eating through the record amount in storage and will clash later this year with diminishing production. It’s a classic example of how a price that is too low will spike, but only after a monumental massacre in the industry. Read.... Havoc and Opportunity in Natural Gas.


Just some food for thought.

Excellent. Thanks for this.

And, of course, extracting the gas pumps saltwater deposits from the same depth out along with the gas to contaminate the groundwater thereabouts. That's where most of the annoyance at the chimp pushing gas as a power source comes from, I'm told.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:39:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nor are the  driving financial markets creating jobs, imagine that too!!!!!



As I've stated a couple times in this thread... I think (i.e., a theory) both the SCOTUS' ruling on the Healthcare Bill, as well as the pending Presidential election, have placed many a business in a holding-pattern of sorts.  To test my theory, I'm waiting to see how the markets react following the SCOTUS' ruling -- assuming the HC Bill is found unconstitutional, that is.



And I'd agree with that (except for the unconstitutional part--doesn't matter, as long as decision is reached one way or another). A lot of the uncertainty ends in November--doesn't matter which party wins. It's just settled either way, and plans can proceed.

Contributing to that is the extremely low cost of money right now. Ordinarily, sitting on cash would be too expensive an opportunity cost.

If the Health care issue remains floundering via SC decision, we'll just be back to businesses struggling with double digit inflation health care costs, however, and that's unsustainable. My support for this act is not that it's the perfect solution (single payer is ultimately where we will be forced to end up, whether we accept that initially or not), but that it finally opens the door to addressing it. Once it's in place, refinements can replace threats of repeal.

The SC must know, too, that it's credibility has already been shaken with first Gore v. Bush (which it never should have accepted) and Citizen United (which really strains the credulity of many Americans). Roberts is going to be in charge of this court for a long time, and he's not stupid. They may well understand the importance of taking a longer term view overall. At least some analysts think so. We'll see. Either way, the wording of the argument is likely to be creative tap-dancing.




mnottertail -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:39:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nor are the  driving financial markets creating jobs, imagine that too!!!!!



As I've stated a couple times in this thread... I think (i.e., a theory) both the SCOTUS' ruling on the Healthcare Bill, as well as the pending Presidential election, have placed many a business in a holding-pattern of sorts.  To test my theory, I'm waiting to see how the markets react following the SCOTUS' ruling -- assuming the HC Bill is found unconstitutional, that is.




And the 8 years prior to Obama?  How would you account for that?




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:42:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

uncertainty...



...the KILLER of business, to be sure.





Moonhead -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:44:43 PM)

That was good for business.
Especially farmers who were wiped out by some shit who wanted to mine gas next door flooding their irrigators with saltwater, small businesses who were saddled with a crippling tax bill to give corporations who hid their assets outside of the country to avoid paying taxes at all, and illegal immigrants who actually did prosper under the chimp.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:48:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And the 8 years prior to Obama?  How would you account for that?



Unemployment was relatively low during that time, but as stated much earlier in this thread, I think we lost a TON of our manufacturing jobs during those years to China -- a TON!!!  And with those jobs, also goes the economy (and quality of living, as those funds leave the country) as we shift from a maker to a taker.  Mind you, I never thought Santorum could win, but I REALLY liked his proposal of a temporary ZERO TAX on the manufacturing sector to help bring those jobs back here, as that would help remove the price differential to manufacturing overseas.





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:48:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

uncertainty...



...the KILLER of business, to be sure.



The killer of short sighted business wedded to the status quo.

Other businesses will do (and have done) what good business people always do---see the opportunities and fill the needs of the current times.




Moonhead -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:51:25 PM)

But they hate America if they do that while a Kenyan Democrat is in the white house.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:51:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

uncertainty...



...the KILLER of business, to be sure.



The killer of short sighted business wedded to the status quo.

Other businesses will do (and have done) what good business people always do---see the opportunities and fill the needs of the current times.



Right... though no business will just stop-in-its-tracks, said "uncertainty" will certainly slow any plans for growth, investment, R&D, etc. -- ultimately affecting hiring.





mnottertail -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:51:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And the 8 years prior to Obama?  How would you account for that?



Unemployment was relatively low during that time, but as stated much earlier in this thread, I think we lost a TON of our manufacturing jobs during those years to China -- a TON!!!  And with those jobs, also goes the economy (and quality of living, as those funds leave the country) as we shift from a maker to a taker.  Mind you, I never thought Santorum could win, but I REALLY liked his proposal of a temporary ZERO TAX on the manufacturing sector to help bring those jobs back here, as that would help remove the price differential to manufacturing overseas.




And taxation is so low on the balance sheet costs (as has been proven repeatedly) that giving them free money (as has been done before and in so many different ways) would be absorbed in bonus and management increases, and would not create any jobs.

But would help the deficit, if the idea is to create more of it.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 1:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And the 8 years prior to Obama?  How would you account for that?



Unemployment was relatively low during that time, but as stated much earlier in this thread, I think we lost a TON of our manufacturing jobs during those years to China -- a TON!!!  And with those jobs, also goes the economy (and quality of living, as those funds leave the country) as we shift from a maker to a taker.  Mind you, I never thought Santorum could win, but I REALLY liked his proposal of a temporary ZERO TAX on the manufacturing sector to help bring those jobs back here, as that would help remove the price differential to manufacturing overseas.


 

...giving them free money (as has been done before and in so many different ways) would be absorbed in bonus and management increases



Possibly... I suppose it'd depend on how such legislation (and limits) would be written?!!  I'd just like to see our manufacturing base return.  Hell... throw a hundred different ideas that might accomplish this out there, and let's look at all of them.  Again, I really liked Santorum's focus on that sector.  I think it's important for getting us back on the right track -- long term.





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 2:02:07 PM)

quote:

Right... though no business will just stop-in-its-tracks, said "uncertainty" will certainly slow any plans for growth, investment, R&D, etc.


Not at all. It's just changes the strategy.

There's a reason productivity has grown so rapidly--for example, the first quarter of 2012, manufacturing productivity increased 5.9%, and output grew 10.8%; hours worked increased only 4.6%. And productivity has steadily increased since 2009.

The investments just aren't being made in labor.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 2:08:01 PM)

quote:

I'd just like to see our manufacturing base return.


After a sharp decline in 2007, manufacturing in the U.S. has been steadily increasing since 2009, and is at it's highest level since before the 1990s.

[image]http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2012/5/20/saupload_mfg2.jpg[/image]




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 2:23:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There's a reason productivity has grown so rapidly--for example, the first quarter of 2012, manufacturing productivity increased 5.9%, and output grew 10.8%; hours worked increased only 4.6%. And productivity has steadily increased since 2009. The investments just aren't being made in labor.



In a way, that actually makes sense.  Here's why... as you may or may not know, all manufacturers place a HUGE emphasis on "production capacity" -- i.e., if they're operating at 10%, 30%, 50%, 80% production capacity -- as they have sizeable fixed costs. 

Thus, to place their emphasis on IMPROVING productivity vs. increasing labor would make sense in order to offset said fixed costs, assuming they've been operating below normal capacity?!!

Interesting numbers. [:)]







Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 2:28:02 PM)

At the start of the recession, they coasted on current inventories and cost-cutting (contributing to unemployment rates). That's only good for a quarter or two. And yes, that meant they had significant excess capacity.

As inventories depleted, instead of taking on more workers, they looked at productivity.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 9:23:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Finally, someone who gets it.

Nick Hanauer is a founder of Second Avenue Partners, a venture capital company in Seattle specializing in early state startups and emerging technology. He has helped launch more than 20 companies, including aQuantive Inc. and Amazon.com, and is the co-author of two books, “The True Patriot” and “The Gardens of Democracy.”

It is astounding how significantly one idea can shape a society and its policies. Consider this one.

If taxes on the rich go up, job creation will go down.

This idea is an article of faith for republicans and seldom challenged by democrats and has shaped much of today's economic landscape.

But sometimes the ideas that we know to be true are dead wrong. For thousands of years people were sure that earth was at the center of the universe. It's not, and an astronomer who still believed that it was, would do some lousy astronomy.

In the same way, a policy maker who believed that the rich and businesses are "job creators" and therefore should not be taxed, would make equally bad policy.

I have started or helped start, dozens of businesses and initially hired lots of people. But if no one could have afforded to buy what we had to sell, my businesses would all have failed and all those jobs would have evaporated.

That's why I can say with confidence that rich people don't create jobs, nor do businesses, large or small. What does lead to more employment is a "circle of life" like feedback loop between customers and businesses. And only consumers can set in motion this virtuous cycle of increasing demand and hiring. In this sense, an ordinary middle-class consumer is far more of a job creator than a capitalist like me.

So when businesspeople take credit for creating jobs, it's a little like squirrels taking credit for creating evolution. In fact, it's the other way around.

Anyone who's ever run a business knows that hiring more people is a capitalists course of last resort, something we do only when increasing customer demand requires it. In this sense, calling ourselves job creators isn't just inaccurate, it's disingenuous.

That's why our current policies are so upside down. When you have a tax system in which most of the exemptions and the lowest rates benefit the richest, all in the name of job creation, all that happens is that the rich get richer.

Since 1980 the share of income for the richest Americans has more than tripled while effective tax rates have declined by close to 50%.

If it were true that lower tax rates and more wealth for the wealthy would lead to more job creation, then today we would be drowning in jobs. And yet unemployment and under-employment is at record highs.

Another reason this idea is so wrong-headed is that there can never be enough superrich Americans to power a great economy. The annual earnings of people like me are hundreds, if not thousands, of times greater than those of the median American, but we don't buy hundreds or thousands of times more stuff. My family owns three cars, not 3,000. I buy a few pairs of pants and a few shirts a year, just like most American men. Like everyone else, we go out to eat with friends and family only occasionally.

I can't buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can't buy any new clothes or cars or enjoy any meals out. Or to make up for the decreasing consumption of the vast majority of American families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs and trapped by stagnant or declining wages.

Here's an incredible fact. If the typical American family still got today the same share of income they earned in 1980, they would earn about 25% more and have an astounding $13,000 more a year. Where would the economy be if that were the case?

Significant privileges have come to capitalists like me for being perceived as "job creators" at the center of the economic universe, and the language and metaphors we use to defend the fairness of the current social and economic arrangements is telling. For instance, it is a small step from "job creator" to "The Creator". We did not accidentally choose this language. It is only honest to admit that calling oneself a "job creator" is both an assertion about how economics works and the a claim on status and privileges.

The extraordinary differential between a 15% tax rate on capital gains, dividends, and carried interest for capitalists, and the 35% top marginal rate on work for ordinary Americans is a privilege that is hard to justify without just a touch of deification

We've had it backward for the last 30 years. Rich businesspeople like me don't create jobs. Rather they are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop animated by middle-class consumers, and when they thrive, businesses grow and hire, and owners profit. That's why taxing the rich to pay for investments that benefit all is a great deal for both the middle class and the rich.

So here's an idea worth spreading.

In a capitalist economy, the true job creators are consumers, the middle class. And taxing the rich to make investments that grow the middle class, is the single smartest thing we can do for the middle class, the poor and the rich.



quote:

I have started or helped start, dozens of businesses and initially hired lots of people.


I'd love to know the (successful) businesses you've started or aided in starting.

Consumers don't (and never have) started businesses.

They support them.

I've started 3, all successful and they NEED consumers...but they certainly weren't started by consumers.

Do tell.




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