RE: The True Job Creators (Full Version)

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MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 9:15:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Few people can make their entire living on capital gains, and so they can't pay the 15% on that income across the board



Oh, so NOW that you've realized that ANYONE can benefit from the 15% Capital Gains rate (just as I've stated repeatedly), suddenly THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU -- NOW your issue is everyone MUST make "their entire living" off Capital Gains?!!  Fuck, make up your mind already?!!

One again, the lower Capital Gains rate is to ENCOURAGE INVESTMENT... sorry if that upsets your apple-cart, but in order to ENCOURAGE INVESTMENT, there has to be some INCENTIVE -- the lower 15% Cap Gains tax rate is exactly that incentive.  And BTW... nobody is stopping you from making your living "entirely" off investments but YOU.  Learn to be a better investor and you'll be able to do just that.  It's not my thing... but again, nobody is stopping YOU from doing it.


Nonsense.



Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... 'cause people just willy-nilly invest for no reason, and with no incentive to do so.  What nonsensical blather!!!  Maybe you should Google what's happened in the past when JFK, Reagan, Bush, etc. all LOWERED Taxes/The Capital Gains tax -- maybe THEN you can PRETEND as if you have ANY idea what you're talking about, instead of the COMPLETE IGNORANCE on investing that you've continued to demonstrate?!! [8|]






Arturas -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 9:54:44 AM)

quote:

Hmmm. Let's see....snotty little girl from kink web site, or extremely accomplished entrepreneur. That's a tough call. But I've had enough of the playground crap here.


I am certain real Goreans are bigger than this.




Arturas -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:11:19 AM)

The concept that consumers create jobs is historically false. The biggest job creator in America was "The Industrial Revolution".

The Industrial Revolution in America was not triggered by a bunch of consumers but by men and women with vision who took huge risks with their money to build the very expensive plants and warehouses and transportation networks. They then opened those plants at even more risk by employing new workers who would then make a product that might not sale.

The impact of the tax code is huge. The tax code is tailored to reward those capitalists who risk their money in doing this. The reward is another carrot to stimulate investement. Removing this reward then encreases the risk of investment and therefore removing this reward is clearly anti-jobs because investment drives "industry" and "Industry" employs. Consumers do not employ.

The reason there is captial sitting on the sidelines is Obama. The uncertainty that Obama brings to the table or rather the certainty that Obama brings an anti-industry agenda to the table keeps investment captial on the sideline waiting for Obama to go away. Soon.

You now should know how to vote unless you are in Obama's circle, a tenured teacher in the teacher's union or one of those in America whose family has lived on welfare for multigenerations by choice.




DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:13:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So that one share of GE will cost you, the etrade way, $529.99 ($19 for the stock, 9.99 commission and $500 to open an account).



Oh my GAWD... clearly you know absolutely NOTHING about trading, let alone BANKING!!!  Pssst... as much of a shock as this might be for you, ummm... you do realize the $500 goes into a BANK ACCOUNT... to FUND any trades you might want to make... and that you DON'T have to spend ALL $500 right?!!  Have you always been this completely ignorant about finance?!! [8|]



You are really clueless. The $500 is a minimum balance. To keep the brokerage account open that money is tied up.




DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:14:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Few people can make their entire living on capital gains, and so they can't pay the 15% on that income across the board



Oh, so NOW that you've realized that ANYONE can benefit from the 15% Capital Gains rate (just as I've stated repeatedly), suddenly THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU -- NOW your issue is everyone MUST make "their entire living" off Capital Gains?!!  Fuck, make up your mind already?!!

One again, the lower Capital Gains rate is to ENCOURAGE INVESTMENT... sorry if that upsets your apple-cart, but in order to ENCOURAGE INVESTMENT, there has to be some INCENTIVE -- the lower 15% Cap Gains tax rate is exactly that incentive.  And BTW... nobody is stopping you from making your living "entirely" off investments but YOU.  Learn to be a better investor and you'll be able to do just that.  It's not my thing... but again, nobody is stopping YOU from doing it.


Nonsense.



Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... 'cause people just willy-nilly invest for no reason, and with no incentive to do so.  What nonsensical blather!!!  Maybe you should Google what's happened in the past when JFK, Reagan, Bush, etc. all LOWERED Taxes/The Capital Gains tax -- maybe THEN you can PRETEND as if you have ANY idea what you're talking about, instead of the COMPLETE IGNORANCE on investing that you've continued to demonstrate?!! [8|]

So there was no investment between 1945 and 1962 when the top tax rate was over 90%? Are you really that clueless?




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:30:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Hmmm. Let's see....snotty little girl from kink web site, or extremely accomplished entrepreneur. That's a tough call. But I've had enough of the playground crap here.


I am certain real Goreans are bigger than this.


That's not something you would know, saga-boy.




vincentML -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:38:06 AM)

quote:

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... 'cause people just willy-nilly invest for no reason, and with no incentive to do so. What nonsensical blather!!! Maybe you should Google what's happened in the past when JFK, Reagan, Bush, etc. all LOWERED Taxes/The Capital Gains tax


Just to set the record straight about JFK's lowering the capital gains tax:

The Kennedy tax package called for cuts in personal and corporate income tax rates over a three-year period, as well as loophole closings and structural reforms designed to broaden the tax base and unleash economic growth. As for the treatment of capital gains, the President linked his proposed reduction in the rate to a provision that would tax capital gains transferred at death, a step Congress was unwilling to make then and has been unwilling to make since.

He argued that taxing capital gains at death was an essential element needed to balance the break that upper-income people would receive from a cut in the capital gains tax. ''Certainly in its absence there would be no justification for any reduction of present capital gain rate schedules,'' Mr. Kennedy said.

While Mr. Sorensen said he doubted if President Kennedy ever thought much about whether capital gains and ordinary income should be treated differently, the issue of a capital gains cut and taxation of capital gains at death were tied politically. He recalled a delicate balancing act to persuade business and organized labor that the tax package was of particular benefit to their very separate constituencies.


SOURCE

Carry on . . . . [:D]




Arturas -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:38:33 AM)

quote:

So there was no investment between 1945 and 1962 when the top tax rate was over 90%? Are you really that clueless?


There was great investment during that time propelled by the potential great profit of selling cars and appliances to hundreds of thousands of G.I.s returning and not wanting to go back to the farm and also the investment of Government in the electrication of the country powering said homes and appliances and the interstate system for said cars and trucks moving said appliances. So, the profit potential was so great that high taxes need to pay for the past war and new infrastructurestill drove investment. Then, taxes paid for roads and electrical generation and distribution. Now, it is for wealth distribution and pays for welfare in spite of Obama's "shovel ready" nonesense. So in short, high tax rates for capital investments work well when that tax money is used as a like investment toward supporting industry and job makers in the form of cheaper energy and distribution (what, you though the interstate system was built to make it easier for families to do a Sunday drive? Ah, no).




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:38:55 AM)

quote:

The Industrial Revolution in America was not triggered by a bunch of consumers but by men and women with vision who took huge risks with their money to build the very expensive plants and warehouses and transportation networks. They then opened those plants at even more risk by employing new workers who would then make a product that might not sale.

The impact of the tax code is huge. The tax code is tailored to reward those capitalists who risk their money in doing this. The reward is another carrot to stimulate investement. Removing this reward then encreases the risk of investment and therefore removing this reward is clearly anti-jobs because investment drives "industry" and "Industry" employs. Consumers do not employ.

The reason there is captial sitting on the sidelines is Obama. The uncertainty that Obama brings to the table or rather the certainty that Obama brings an anti-industry agenda to the table keeps investment captial on the sideline waiting for Obama to go away. Soon.


The tax code had top brackets as high as 90%. Personally--I think that's too high, just as I think 35% is too low. But regardless, industry flourished just the same. And with mass production came the need for consumers to buy those products, something that wasn't as important in a largely agrarian society.

Exactly, the problem with current investment isn't capital gains rates, but parked capital. Several reasons for this. One is uncertainty that started with the mortgage bundling fiasco and was compounded by record low interest rates from buying our way out of two previous recessions with monetary policy while leaving a flawed structural fiscal policy (tax cuts with increased spending and new long-term military obligations). All that is pre-Obama (though you could argue he hasn't done enough to fix it--but that mess so far came with the job). So banks are tight on credit; businesses are sitting on cash. Nothing but the time to unravel that mess finally will change this, because being certain any given bank is immune has been masked by the bundled deals. What Obama has added is the Health Care element. We could debate whether that's a good idea (I'd argue it's a crisis that needs attention, and this is a long overdue start, as double digit health care increases were strangling businesses), but the uncertainty is shared--will these provisions move forward in 2014, or no? Once that debate is settled--in either direction--that part of the uncertainty will be lifted, and businesses will move forward accordingly. They certainly have the cash to do so, and GDP has continued growing around 3% since mid-2009, while productivity has soared. Business certainly hasn't stopped...it just isn't creating many new jobs, as the "cut taxes and jobs will follow" dogma blindly believes. That's because consumers are 2/3 of the economy, and if they don't buy, or feel uncertainly about buying, the economy will be stagnate, and new jobs won't be created--which is exactly what's happening now.

Incidentally, net exports are up, and have been steadily climbing, under Obama's "anti-industry" agenda--an agenda that is frankly almost a carbon copy of Bush's. Where do you get this crap?




DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:40:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

So there was no investment between 1945 and 1962 when the top tax rate was over 90%? Are you really that clueless?


There was great investment during that time propelled by the potential great profit of selling cars and appliances to hundreds of thousands of G.I.s returning and not wanting to go back to the farm and also the investment of Government in the electrication of the country powering said homes and appliances and the interstate system for said cars and trucks moving said appliances. So, the profit potential was so great that high taxes need to pay for the past war still drove investment. Then, taxes paid for roads and electrical generation and distribution. Now, it is for wealth distribution and pays for welfare in spite of Obama's "shovel ready" nonesense. So in short, high tax rates for capital investments work well when that tax money is used as a like investment toward supporting industry and job makers in the form of cheaper energy and distribution (what, you though the interstate system was built to make it easier for families to do a Sunday drive? Ah, no).

Actually corporate profit was quite low uring the period. Prior to Raygun a corporate profit margin of 5% was considered robust.




Arturas -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:46:54 AM)

quote:

Incidentally, net exports are up, and have been steadily climbing, under Obama's "anti-industry" agenda--an agenda that is frankly almost a carbon copy of Bush's. Where do you get this crap?


Sounds like an MSNBC sound bite. Our biggest export is industrial supplies to those countries that are more industry friendly and have the industry to use them, and more jobs. The increase has nothing to do with OBama but with someone making lemonaid out of lemons.




mnottertail -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:51:03 AM)

Well, dollarwise the biggest export of the US is Fuels.  So other than that you got it all wrong. And to put the brakes on backpeddling, the second is going to be agricultural products.

But thank you for the slice of neo-con disinformation.




vincentML -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:52:04 AM)

quote:

and also the investment of Government in the electrication of the country powering said homes and appliances and the interstate system for said cars and trucks moving said appliances


Government has always had a role in providing investments to the economy: Henry Clay's exortation to build canals; Lincoln's railroads and land grant colleges; the TVA and Hoover Dam projects; Eisenhower Interstate Highway Systems; NASA projects; and NIH grants. Even Bain Capital received tax credits and subsidies from State and Federal Governments.

The argument that Government is the problem; that government needs to be smaller and get out of the way is absurd. We have always counted on a coalition of Public and Private investment. Neither can carry the economy without the other.

And this: "Now, it is for wealth distribution" is a political red herring.




Arturas -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:52:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

So there was no investment between 1945 and 1962 when the top tax rate was over 90%? Are you really that clueless?


There was great investment during that time propelled by the potential great profit of selling cars and appliances to hundreds of thousands of G.I.s returning and not wanting to go back to the farm and also the investment of Government in the electrication of the country powering said homes and appliances and the interstate system for said cars and trucks moving said appliances. So, the profit potential was so great that high taxes need to pay for the past war still drove investment. Then, taxes paid for roads and electrical generation and distribution. Now, it is for wealth distribution and pays for welfare in spite of Obama's "shovel ready" nonesense. So in short, high tax rates for capital investments work well when that tax money is used as a like investment toward supporting industry and job makers in the form of cheaper energy and distribution (what, you though the interstate system was built to make it easier for families to do a Sunday drive? Ah, no).

Actually corporate profit was quite low uring the period. Prior to Raygun a corporate profit margin of 5% was considered robust.



Profit rate does not drive investment. Profit amount drives investment. Henry Ford and his partners invested a great deal of money, risked it all, to build a car with little profit rate per car. It attracted farmers who had money. That drove up sales. More hires which then drove up other side industries and services and on and on. But, the profit margin was low so profit margin is meaningless unless it goes negative.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:52:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So that one share of GE will cost you, the etrade way, $529.99 ($19 for the stock, 9.99 commission and $500 to open an account).



Oh my GAWD... clearly you know absolutely NOTHING about trading, let alone BANKING!!!  Pssst... as much of a shock as this might be for you, ummm... you do realize the $500 goes into a BANK ACCOUNT... to FUND any trades you might want to make... and that you DON'T have to spend ALL $500 right?!!  Have you always been this completely ignorant about finance?!! [8|]



The $500 is a minimum balance. To keep the brokerage account open that money is tied up.


WRONG... WRONG... WRONG!!!  Once again, you PRETEND as if you know what you're blathering on about, and yet ONCE AGAIN... you show how absolutely CLUELESS you are about finance.  The $500 is to FUND the account when opening it, NOTHING MORE -- there is NO "MINIMUM BALANCE" TO "KEEP THE BROKERAGE ACCOUNT OPEN" AS YOU ALLEGE!!!  Got that?!!  And anyone reading this can simply contact eTrade to confirm you don't have a clue as to what you're spouting off about here -- yet AGAIN!!! [8|]





mnottertail -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:55:26 AM)

And when I think of the myriad homeless out there stuffing thier $500 in those mattresses instead of growing it in the market, shipping jobs overseas, or so the finance guys can just sit on it, it just seems so........futile.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:57:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

clueless



Yes, YOU are exactly that... CLUELESS to the past and present.  Try scouring this very thread for information about (i) the alleged "90%" tax rate, as well as (ii) what transpired after WWII -- maybe you'll actually LEARN something, and won't look so COMPLETELY IGNORANT about these topics. [8|]





Arturas -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 10:57:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

and also the investment of Government in the electrication of the country powering said homes and appliances and the interstate system for said cars and trucks moving said appliances


Government has always had a role in providing investments to the economy: Henry Clay's exortation to build canals; Lincoln's railroads and land grant colleges; the TVA and Hoover Dam projects; Eisenhower Interstate Highway Systems; NASA projects; and NIH grants. Even Bain Capital received tax credits and subsidies from State and Federal Governments.

The argument that Government is the problem; that government needs to be smaller and get out of the way is absurd. We have always counted on a coalition of Public and Private investment. Neither can carry the economy without the other.

And this: "Now, it is for wealth distribution" is a political red herring.


Government size is unimportant. Goverment policy is. The Government was quite small when it did all those great things during the 40s and early 50s but it's policy was large impact to our infrastructure.

The comment "now, it's for wealth distribution" is a real fact. "Disability" participants are up 75% under Obama. Taking from Industrialists and other potential investors to power the welfare state in order to buy votes is the real policy of Obama. One that needs to change. One that must change.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 11:00:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail



Strangely enough, the "homeless" are NOT driving our financial markets -- imagine that?!!





Arturas -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/24/2012 11:01:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

Hmmm. Let's see....snotty little girl from kink web site, or extremely accomplished entrepreneur. That's a tough call. But I've had enough of the playground crap here.


I am certain real Goreans are bigger than this.


That's not something you would know, saga-boy.


Yes? Does a real Gorean respond to an arguement with cheap insults? Then you are right and I am not a real Gorean.




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