RE: The True Job Creators (Full Version)

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MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 8:13:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ALL are free to invest and realize a Capital Gain


And yet again, that's if they have capital to invest.



Oh give me a flippin' break... General Electric's stock was around $7.00 per share just a few years ago, and now it's trading at $19.00 -- i.e., nearly TRIPLE!!!  So you're gonna tell me most don't have $7.00?!!  Sell that line of bullshit to someone else... "average Americans" frequently dump a few hundred bucks in Las Vegas, for crying out loud?!! [8|]




Edwynn -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 8:16:15 PM)

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Never in history, with all it's horrors, have we seen such drooling idolatry of those who have-not towards those-who-have as is witnessed here.


Bullshit. The OP is written by a very successful guy. Nor does it complain about wealth at all.

It DOES point out that trickle down doesn't work, and those resources allocated to more tax cuts for more trickle-down that doesn't work do not create jobs.

Most businesses are small businesses. Policies that support middle class endeavors create jobs.


Good gosh, ... I have to explain -everything-, it seems. All else in the post would have explained the contrarian thinking to any thinking person.

That comment was in regards responses to the OP, not to the OP itself.





Edwynn -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 8:22:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ALL are free to invest and realize a Capital Gain


And yet again, that's if they have capital to invest.



Oh give me a flippin' break... General Electric's stock was around $7.00 per share just a few years ago, and now it's trading at $19.00 -- i.e., nearly TRIPLE!!!  So you're gonna tell me most don't have $7.00?!!  Sell that line of bullshit to someone else... "average Americans" frequently dump a few hundred bucks in Las Vegas, for crying out loud?!! [8|]



Yeah, you bend over for anybody, and have the notion that congress should require all of society to do likewise, we got it.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 8:34:18 PM)

quote:

So you're gonna tell me most don't have $7.00?!! Sell that line of bullshit to someone else.


Yeah, I can't imagine why the average American earning $50,000 a year doesn't simply invest $625,000 instead to earn the average 8% stock market return instead of going to work for taxable income.

Oh yeah---THEY DON'T FUCKING HAVE $625,000 TO INVEST--THAT'S WHY THEY'RE FUCKING WORKING.

Sell that line of bullshit to someone else.

Point here is this:

It is astounding how significantly one idea can shape a society and its policies. Consider this one.

If taxes on the rich go up, job creation will go down.

This idea is an article of faith for republicans and seldom challenged by democrats and has shaped much of today's economic landscape.

But sometimes the ideas that we know to be true are dead wrong. For thousands of years people were sure that earth was at the center of the universe. It's not, and an astronomer who still believed that it was, would do some lousy astronomy.

In the same way, a policy maker who believed that the rich and businesses are "job creators" and therefore should not be taxed, would make equally bad policy.

I have started or helped start, dozens of businesses and initially hired lots of people. But if no one could have afforded to buy what we had to sell, my businesses would all have failed and all those jobs would have evaporated.

That's why I can say with confidence that rich people don't create jobs, nor do businesses, large or small. What does lead to more employment is a "circle of life" like feedback loop between customers and businesses. And only consumers can set in motion this virtuous cycle of increasing demand and hiring. In this sense, an ordinary middle-class consumer is far more of a job creator than a capitalist like me.

So when businesspeople take credit for creating jobs, it's a little like squirrels taking credit for creating evolution. In fact, it's the other way around.

Anyone who's ever run a business knows that hiring more people is a capitalists course of last resort, something we do only when increasing customer demand requires it. In this sense, calling ourselves job creators isn't just inaccurate, it's disingenuous.

That's why our current policies are so upside down. When you have a tax system in which most of the exemptions and the lowest rates benefit the richest, all in the name of job creation, all that happens is that the rich get richer.

Since 1980 the share of income for the richest Americans has more than tripled while effective tax rates have declined by close to 50%.

If it were true that lower tax rates and more wealth for the wealthy would lead to more job creation, then today we would be drowning in jobs. And yet unemployment and under-employment is at record highs.

Another reason this idea is so wrong-headed is that there can never be enough superrich Americans to power a great economy. The annual earnings of people like me are hundreds, if not thousands, of times greater than those of the median American, but we don't buy hundreds or thousands of times more stuff. My family owns three cars, not 3,000. I buy a few pairs of pants and a few shirts a year, just like most American men. Like everyone else, we go out to eat with friends and family only occasionally.

I can't buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can't buy any new clothes or cars or enjoy any meals out. Or to make up for the decreasing consumption of the vast majority of American families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs and trapped by stagnant or declining wages.

Here's an incredible fact. If the typical American family still got today the same share of income they earned in 1980, they would earn about 25% more and have an astounding $13,000 more a year. Where would the economy be if that were the case?

Significant privileges have come to capitalists like me for being perceived as "job creators" at the center of the economic universe, and the language and metaphors we use to defend the fairness of the current social and economic arrangements is telling. For instance, it is a small step from "job creator" to "The Creator". We did not accidentally choose this language. It is only honest to admit that calling oneself a "job creator" is both an assertion about how economics works and the a claim on status and privileges.

The extraordinary differential between a 15% tax rate on capital gains, dividends, and carried interest for capitalists, and the 35% top marginal rate on work for ordinary Americans is a privilege that is hard to justify without just a touch of deification

We've had it backward for the last 30 years. Rich businesspeople like me don't create jobs. Rather they are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop animated by middle-class consumers, and when they thrive, businesses grow and hire, and owners profit. That's why taxing the rich to pay for investments that benefit all is a great deal for both the middle class and the rich.

So here's an idea worth spreading.

In a capitalist economy, the true job creators are consumers, the middle class. And taxing the rich to make investments that grow the middle class, is the single smartest thing we can do for the middle class, the poor and the rich.





DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 8:52:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ALL are free to invest and realize a Capital Gain


And yet again, that's if they have capital to invest.



Oh give me a flippin' break... General Electric's stock was around $7.00 per share just a few years ago, and now it's trading at $19.00 -- i.e., nearly TRIPLE!!!  So you're gonna tell me most don't have $7.00?!!  Sell that line of bullshit to someone else... "average Americans" frequently dump a few hundred bucks in Las Vegas, for crying out loud?!! [8|]


Try and find a broker that will handle your order for a single share of GE (even if one will do it they'll charge you more than $19 in add on charges).




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 8:56:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

bend over for anybody



I'm not interested in your social life. [8|]





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:02:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

So you're gonna tell me most don't have $7.00?!! Sell that line of bullshit to someone else.


Yeah, I can't imagine why the average American earning $50,000 a year doesn't simply invest $625,000 instead to earn the average 8% stock market return instead of going to work for taxable income.



Do you remember Sesame Street?!!  Now... look at the two figures above and sing along, "Which one is not like the others?!!"  Maybe you could at least flirt with the idea of RATIONAL THINKING?!!  What a load of bullshit!!! [8|]





Edwynn -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:02:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

bend over for anybody



I'm not interested in your social life. [8|]



Nor are we yours, however much you wish to promulgate that "bend over boyfriend" aspic for all of society.

Keep it to yourself, bud.





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:07:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Try and find a broker that will handle your order for a single share of GE (even if one will do it they'll charge you more than $19 in add on charges).



eTrade = $9.99 per trade -- and one would likely buy more than ONE share.  Are you seriously THIS ignorant about trading stocks?!! [8|]





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:08:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

So you're gonna tell me most don't have $7.00?!! Sell that line of bullshit to someone else.


Yeah, I can't imagine why the average American earning $50,000 a year doesn't simply invest $625,000 instead to earn the average 8% stock market return instead of going to work for taxable income.



Do you remember Sesame Street?!!  Now... look at the two figures above and sing along, "Which one is not like the others?!!"  Maybe you could at least flirt with the idea of RATIONAL THINKING?!!  What a load of bullshit!!! [8|]



So an American buys a $7 share of stock. Sells it this year for $19, gets $11 taxed at 15%, while paying earned income rates on the other $50,000.

Maybe you could at least flirt with the idea of RATIONAL THINKING?!!

To earn that $50,000 in capital gains, at average 8% stock market returns, that American would need to invest $625,000.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


How idiotic little MasterSlaveLA is...


Hmmm... and where does the idiot think the money from said consumers comes from so that they can "afford" to purchase?!! From JOBS, maybe?!! Hint to MasterSlaveLA... people without jobs have NO MONEY to "afford" to purchase. Someone with money creates a job, the person is paid for their job, and then POOF... they can now "afford" to purchase. Imagine that?!!





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:08:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

bend over boyfriend



Again, I'm not interested in what you and your boi-toy do. [8|]






Edwynn -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:13:49 PM)


You have been shown what you are about, sorry if that troubles you, but it's plain for all to see.

You could take that "more tax breaks to the top .10 percent", "Spank Me, Fuck Me" shirt off your back any time you like.

Its all up to you.







MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:17:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

So you're gonna tell me most don't have $7.00?!! Sell that line of bullshit to someone else.


Yeah, I can't imagine why the average American earning $50,000 a year doesn't simply invest $625,000 instead to earn the average 8% stock market return instead of going to work for taxable income.



Do you remember Sesame Street?!!  Now... look at the two figures above and sing along, "Which one is not like the others?!!"  Maybe you could at least flirt with the idea of RATIONAL THINKING?!!  What a load of bullshit!!! [8|]



So an American buys a $7 share of stock. Sells it this year for $19, gets $11 taxed at 15%, while paying earned income rates on the other $50,000.



They'd likely buy MORE than one share.  Thus, assume they buy 15 shares for a whopping $105 dollars, and the value (in GE's case) triples -- they now have $315.  Deduct 15% of that, and they pocket $267.75 for their $105 investment.  And guess what... go ahead guess -- THEY PAID THE SAME DAMN 15% CAPITAL GAINS TAX RATE AS EVERY-FUCKING-BODY-ELSE WHO MADE MONEY ON INCOME THEY INVESTED!!!

I'm sure that will make your head explode, but do try to deal with it.  As I'd said... anyone from a CEO to a Cashier is free to invest and benefit from the Capital Gains rate.  Oh, and pssst... if they get good at investing, then they have MORE money to invest next time, and thereby more to gain, next time, don't they?!! [8|]





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:18:49 PM)

 
Actually, YOU have been showing what YOU are about -- and again, I'm not interested in what, or who, you do. [8|]





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:31:54 PM)

quote:

They'd likely buy MORE than one share. Thus, assume they buy 15 shares for a whopping $105 dollars, and the value (in GE's case) triples -- they now have $315. Deduct 15% of that, and they pocket $267.75 for their $105 investment. And guess what... go ahead guess -- THEY PAID THE SAME DAMN 15% CAPITAL GAINS TAX RATE AS EVERY-FUCKING-BODY-ELSE WHO MADE MONEY ON INCOME THEY INVESTED!!!


And then they STILL AREN'T PAYING 15% EXCEPT ON A TINY PORTION OF THEIR INCOME.

Wow. $315 of an average $50,000 income. They saved...$63 dollars.

quote:


ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

How idiotic little MasterSlaveLA is...

Hmmm... and where does the idiot think the money from said consumers comes from so that they can "afford" to purchase?!! From JOBS, maybe?!! Hint to MasterSlaveLA... people without jobs have NO MONEY to "afford" to purchase. Someone with money creates a job, the person is paid for their job, and then POOF... they can now "afford" to purchase. Imagine that?!!


Tell me....how is it they have money to invest, but not to consume, as you claim in post #2?





Edwynn -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:33:26 PM)


It's not about what I do, far away from whatever you seem to be into, it's about who you are bending over for, as professed here on every occasion.

Again, don't expect the rest of us to be into that.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:36:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

To earn that $50,000 in capital gains, at average 8% stock market returns, that American would need to invest $625,000.



Holy fuck... what part if "INVESTING" is unclear to you?!!  Do you actually think when someone elects to "invest", that they QUIT THEIR FUCKING JOB to do so?!!  Talk about irrational thinking?!!  Hint:  Most take some money (you got that... SOME money) and... <drum roll>... INVEST it in something they believe will bring a return.  Got that?!!

Good GAWD?!! [8|]





Edwynn -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:39:12 PM)


Trailer park wisdom, at it's finest.





Owner59 -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 9:48:36 PM)

People also lose money.......emmm.....Facebook?!

Imagine how many more millions of Americans would have been ass fucked if we had let the shit-eating republicans give our Social Security money to wallstreet to gamble away.....?

Holy shit......woulda gone down the same rat-hole our other 17 trillion dollars went down.

The republicans would have pulled off their wish of killing SS forever.

Thank goodness we didn`t let that happen.




sandmboxer -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/23/2012 10:00:57 PM)

Notice the typical liberal left wing communist lie about social security. Nice to see they learned their Stalin lessons well in college." Tell a big enough lie often enough and people will think its true".




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