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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:04:17 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

To the issue of the disabled, are we ever going to make a distinction as to self-inflicted disability (drug addiction, spoon in mouth sydrome, etc) vs. fate disability (autism, getting hit by a drunk, muscular dystrophy, etc)?


What do you mean by spoon in mouth syndrome? Is that a dig against fat people?

I'm not sure that we can make those kinds of judgments, really, because how many lines can be drawn? I don't like drug addicts, so they can die in the street, but drunks are okay, even though they both got strokes because of their predilictions? What about FAS babies, do we hate them and deny them care because their parents caused their ailment?

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:18:49 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

To the issue of the disabled, are we ever going to make a distinction as to self-inflicted disability (drug addiction, spoon in mouth sydrome, etc) vs. fate disability (autism, getting hit by a drunk, muscular dystrophy, etc)?


What do you mean by spoon in mouth syndrome? Is that a dig against fat people?

I'm not sure that we can make those kinds of judgments, really, because how many lines can be drawn? I don't like drug addicts, so they can die in the street, but drunks are okay, even though they both got strokes because of their predilictions? What about FAS babies, do we hate them and deny them care because their parents caused their ailment?


Well, yes it is...The sheer number of obese in this country is not due to some weird disease floating around making people gain weight it is due to people putting more calories in their mouth than they burn off. I am 6'4" and I was 285--look it up, obese. I started having some health problems, I didn't start making excuses, and claiming it was a disability that I like to eat (food addiction). I got my ass in shape, modified my dietary portions and lost 50lbs. I also smoked, quit that too, despite my addiction.

My point is some are disabled because they choose to be. I don't care if eventually got addicted to something, they chose to take it to that level. I don't think you should be given priviledged status in society as a disabled person if you purposely inflicted yourself with that disability. Because of the ADA, people do get certain priviledges like being protected from termination from their job, I don't think you should get that level of protection if you are the sole reason behind that disability.

As for the children, the parents caused it not them. Hence, not a self-inflicted disability.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:23:15 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Are there a lot of fat people on disability? Compared to folks with emphysema from smoking, say?

Slippery slope, these social engineering types of judgments.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:30:51 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Are there a lot of fat people on disability? Compared to folks with emphysema from smoking, say?

Slippery slope, these social engineering types of judgments.


Not claiming that they are always drawing on disability, sometimes its just getting parking placards and special treatment at work.

Smoking is a bad personal choice too, and you should be responsible for the consequences

I don't see this as social engineering. I see it as personal responsibility, you are responsible for your own actions. You have no right to demand that others pay for your incompetence or work around it. There is no slope at all, it is a clear line. You caused your problem intentionally (in the case of fat, smoking, or drugs, despite ample warning, you knew exactly what you were getting yourself into) or you didn't.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:34:32 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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Status: offline 		How very.... Libertarian!

And it is indeed social engineering to reward specific behaviours and punish others. That's why there are such high taxes on booze and smokes in some states (Like Michigan) and why smokers are the new lepers. Not a pretty picture you paint, your land of sheep and goats.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:44:19 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

How very.... Libertarian!

And it is indeed social engineering to reward specific behaviours and punish others. That's why there are such high taxes on booze and smokes in some states (Like Michigan) and why smokers are the new lepers. Not a pretty picture you paint, your land of sheep and goats.


I don't what to reward or punish..............Where am I saying reward or punish? I am not say imprison the fat or subsidize the thin. I am saying no reward for bad behaviour. It is social engineering to protect those from their own stupidity. I don't think we should tax booze more than diapers as a percentage. If you have a glass of wine everyday you are not abusing alcohol and are probably doing your body a favor. However, if you are ripping through a 12er a day of busch light you are drunk and nobody should be holding your hand a paying for your mistakes as a drunk. Now, I think you have the right to be a drunk, and you have the right suffer the pain of being a drunk.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:47:28 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		But the tax on the 12 pack is the same if I drink them all in one day, or take a year to do it, right? No one can control end use of the product.

When you say NO HELP FOR FATTIES, you are punishing them, really you are. And that's fine, you can enjoy that viewpoint. Personally, I am not going to begrudge someone a handicapped parking tag, even if their knees are shot purely because they weigh twice as much as a human should.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 2:56:39 PM   
MileHighM


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Status: offline 		You might save their life if you make them park at the back and walk, burning off that snickers. Maybe I care enough, to cut them off....

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:14:17 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM
My point is some are disabled because they choose to be. I don't care if eventually got addicted to something, they chose to take it to that level. I don't think you should be given priviledged status in society as a disabled person if you purposely inflicted yourself with that disability.



Dodgy road to go down, MHM. You could find that people who, for instance, continue working in jobs that are overly stressful are to be considered 'addicted' to their lifestyles, too. This might include top business people, medics . . . politicians, even.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:21:29 PM   
MileHighM


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Status: offline 		PFH,

How is that relavent? So what if you say they are addicted.....What bearing does that have on disabilities?

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:25:19 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

(in the case of fat, smoking, or drugs, despite ample warning, you knew exactly what you were getting yourself into) or you didn't.


You know, I am really sick of fat people always bearing the brunt of "its your own fault". I've been overweight literally my entire life, as in since birth as a 13lb baby. Most of the time I don't eat any more, and often a lot less, than the average person. Yes, there are times when I do over eat, doesn't everybody. However, to demonize every person in the world and say that since you lost weight, we should all be able to, we are just weak and lack willpower, is rude, obnoxious and ignorant. There are a lot of causes of obesity, how much and what one eats is just a part of it.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:26:07 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Many many executive types have heart attacks due to work related stress. Would you legislate their lifestyle too, and say that they aren't allowed assistance? Or is it only the unsightly "disabilities" that you take against?

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:34:03 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

PFH,

How is that relavent? So what if you say they are addicted.....What bearing does that have on disabilities?


Well, you can become disabled due to stress that leads, say, to a heart attack. Or many other health problems. You can have unnecessary accidents because of stress, get related illnesses because of it . . . all of which could lead indirectly to a disability. Depression can be precipitated by stress, and this is one of the most common reasons that people are incapacity benefits here in the UK.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:35:32 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

quote:

(in the case of fat, smoking, or drugs, despite ample warning, you knew exactly what you were getting yourself into) or you didn't.


You know, I am really sick of fat people always bearing the brunt of "its your own fault". I've been overweight literally my entire life, as in since birth as a 13lb baby. Most of the time I don't eat any more, and often a lot less, than the average person. Yes, there are times when I do over eat, doesn't everybody. However, to demonize every person in the world and say that since you lost weight, we should all be able to, we are just weak and lack willpower, is rude, obnoxious and ignorant. There are a lot of causes of obesity, how much and what one eats is just a part of it.



Would you contend that the massive surge in obesity is in the US isn't based on 75% or more on lack of willpower? Sure there are some (the minority) of the obese that have some legitimate medical concerns with their weight, but how is it that an excuse to ignore the elephant in the room, that the majority of America's obese are out there because they don't exercise enough and eat responsibly? It is not rude to point out the facts....

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:38:47 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

PFH,

How is that relavent? So what if you say they are addicted.....What bearing does that have on disabilities?


Well, you can become disabled due to stress that leads, say, to a heart attack. Or many other health problems. You can have unnecessary accidents because of stress, get related illnesses because of it . . . all of which could lead indirectly to a disability. Depression can be precipitated by stress, and this is one of the most common reasons that people are incapacity benefits here in the UK.



Ok, but to get at the heart of my arguement: I am really concerned with whether or not we are enabling bad behaviour by offering individuals making bad decisions in their lives too much support without a call for them to make better ones in order to recieve the help.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:41:52 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Many many executive types have heart attacks due to work related stress. Would you legislate their lifestyle too, and say that they aren't allowed assistance? Or is it only the unsightly "disabilities" that you take against?


Being pregnant is, of course, an extremely unsightly disability, as well as a very stressful indulgence on the part of those who go around getting pregnant (generally women, from what I've observed). Bringing up the little shits after they've been born is even worse.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:44:09 PM   
MileHighM


Posts: 400
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Status: offline 		How is being pregnant a disability?

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:48:26 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM
Ok, but to get at the heart of my arguement: I am really concerned with whether or not we are enabling bad behaviour by offering individuals making bad decisions in their lives too much support without a call for them to make better ones in order to recieve the help.


In all seriousness, MHM - I'd agree. But I would go the whole hog. What I think we're looking at here is holistic medicine: advice that is absolutely followed about the entirety of people's lives. If I were a doc, for instance, who could see that his patient was on the way to a coronary if he were to carry on with his insanely stressful job, I'd want him to *stop doing that job*. But in our society, docs can't do that. They have to deal with people whose health is the result of the way they live their lives now. Western societies have developed crap eating habits, crap fitness habits (or lack thereof), smoking addictions, the chronic laziness brought on by being utterly wedded to, for instance, the private car . . . etc, etc, etc.

I don't generally like 'thin end of the wedge' and 'slippery slope' arguments - but I do think that they're relevant to this particular issue.

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RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:50:11 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

How is being pregnant a disability?


I shall wait for a woman to answer that one.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Minorities - 5/22/2012 3:55:05 PM   
MileHighM


Posts: 400
Joined: 10/8/2009
Status: offline 		Sure I get it PFH----I am not asking for societal perfection, that is a fool's errand. However, you, as a Doc, can say I recommend you quit (wife the therapist does it all the time). Yeah we have to deal with all of that, but we can't always feel sorry for everyone! If we do, people just get better and better at wailing and claiming they should helped. We need boundaries, lines, and conditionals. No matter what the definition of normal, ultimately the majority is 'normal.' Not everybody can be abnormal, then there would be no definition of normal. It is all relativistic.

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