RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's

RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 10:58:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne the state claims it has the "right" to collect taxes. Another misuse of the word, by the state, made by people who do not know better. The state has powers, not rights. Even the wording of the US Constitution shows government has power and not rights; i.e. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes ... You'll not find anywhere in the US Constitution, nor any state Constitution I believe, the word "right" assigned to government. Maybe we should consider it a moral right that trumps a lack of Constitutional right. Sort of like the humane right to food, clothing, and shelter. Might also throw in the right to safety and the right to get an education. but the courts do not recognize that your rights do not come from the constitution. They are antecedent to any constitution. They are selling a package of goods which generates hords of cash while at the same time denying (and stealing) legitimate cures. Nice racket if I were the top dog! Burzynski documentary reveals true agenda of FDA and cancer industry to destroy cancer cures that really work (NaturalNews) As I've written about many times before, the cancer industry with all of its research, campaigns, and fundraising activities is really nothing more than a giant, corrupt business venture. As crazy as it might sound to some, the point of the cancer industry is not really to cure cancer -- it is to keep raising money for the alleged, and never-ending, "search for the cure." And the hard-hitting documentary Burzynski The Movie - Cancer Is Serious Business exposes all this as director Eric Merola tracks the 14-year battle of Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski -- the man responsible for creating the all-natural, non-toxic cancer cure featured in the film -- to protect his unique protocol from being stolen by the government and Big Pharma, and to defend his freedom to treat cancer patients with unconventional methods. The complete, full-length documentary is available now at NaturalNews.TV: Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032998_Burzynski_cancer_cures.html#ixzz1wBjQ852F The FDA stole his patents and claimed them for themselves through a 3rd party agent! yes we create government to PROTECT the rights of individuals alrightee! I posted this many times, and the FDA even admits that it works, but then why else would they steal his patents and forbid him to sell his products out of state. Gubafia health care? Should scare the shit out of everyone. Destroy the economy so no one can afford to pay for health care then push it as a rights debate to desroy the few private rights still somewhat intact. Meanwhile the american people will remain willfully ignorant while that big red white and blue dick is being jammed up their assholes. ~ Carlin

TheHeretic -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 10:59:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Rich, are you turning into a closet liberal? Nope, but I'm not an anarchist or libertarian, either. Just because government shouldn't be the default solution to everything that comes along, doesn't mean there aren't some things that can't be done any other way. In those circumstances, we need to be mindful of the inherent inefficiences, and guard constantly against the corrupting influences of power.

Marini -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 11:02:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Maybe we should consider it a moral right that trumps a lack of Constitutional right. Sort of like the humane right to food, clothing, and shelter. Might also throw in the right to safety and the right to get an education. Under the guise of a right, if someone has the humane right to shelter, food and clothing I'd suppose anyone needing such is free to exercise their right and to crash at your place, eat your food and help themselves to your wardrobe. But if, instead, you'd point them in the direction of the nearest shelter then it would be apparent that they'd be accessing the privilege the shelter offers in its charity. Charity is something one does for whatever reason, but it is not owed anyone due to any claim of right they might make. Charity is more akin to a gift, and a gift is not something anyone has a right to. How could it be a gift if you have a right to it? I have enjoyed your participation and appreciate your honesty. I will say, after a while, you will learn which posts to over-look/not bother reading/learn selective reading techniques, because there are people here that pollute every thread no matter the subject is, with a load of their crap/and never-ending personal agenda's. I digress, back to topic, please give me an honest answer: Do you think/believe that people that can't afford insurance, or get quality "free care" from whatever is available for them these days, should just die? Many of us know for a FACT, that you often do not get anywhere near the same level of care for many medical conditions without good insurance. Without GOOD insurance in the United States: You almost always do NOT, get the same level of care, consideration, CHOICE of physicians, availability to see specialists, in-depth tests, labs, etc. medications, protocols, second opinions, treatment OPTIONS,or even availability of appointments, etc. Please be honest, I need to hear it. I do think this is how many people feel, but are too chicken shit to just admit it.

Real0ne -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 11:04:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Rich, are you turning into a closet liberal? Nope, but I'm not an anarchist or libertarian, either. Just because government shouldn't be the default solution to everything that comes along, doesn't mean there aren't some things that can't be done any other way. In those circumstances, we need to be mindful of the inherent inefficiences, and guard constantly against the corrupting influences of power. They regulate every aspect of the economy! They created this shit mess the hegelian dialectic, gubafia creates the problem and sells themselves as the hero with flawed faulty solutions. . some things never change. the real problem is why is the economy/situation so poor we cannot afford to pay for it ourselves.

Marini -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 11:24:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Amen Marini! Thank you Lucy! We are already ass backwards with economy/jobs, now our fucking health care situation is nearing crisis fucking levels!!!! It seems like people outside the states can see how fucking crappy it is, easier than we can! We are going down, this current system will be crashing and burning, in the not so distant future, than people will REALLY have something to chat about. Unfucking real, we are number #37 on the WHO's list of health care, maybe if we slip to #90 behind Vietnam, Bangladesh, Nicaragua, Mexico and Cuba people will become more "vocal".

TheHeretic -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 11:31:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini It seems like people outside the states can see how fucking crappy it is, easier than we can! You have seen Stella's thread about government run care on the British model, over on the general off-topic section, haven't you Mari?

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 11:35:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Rich, are you turning into a closet liberal? Nope, but I'm not an anarchist or libertarian, either. Just because government shouldn't be the default solution to everything that comes along, doesn't mean there aren't some things that can't be done any other way. In those circumstances, we need to be mindful of the inherent inefficiences, and guard constantly against the corrupting influences of power. Did you just say that you were in favor of the govt. being the health care provider for the u.s. with proper safeguards and oversight?

Marini -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 11:37:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Marini It seems like people outside the states can see how fucking crappy it is, easier than we can! [sm=danger.gif] [sm=sad.gif] sigh, yes!

Lucylastic -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 11:46:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Marini It seems like people outside the states can see how fucking crappy it is, easier than we can! You have seen Stella's thread about government run care on the British model, over on the general off-topic section, haven't you Mari? Nobody has ever claimed the UK system doesnt have its problems, however much you might decide to claim otherwise Plus its about benefits reducing, something you havent had a problem with before, got nothing to do with the actual healthcare at all.

Raiikun -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 11:47:03 AM)
Hypothetical situation to elaborate on my previous statement. Let's say someone spends years of his life and millions of dollars and comes up with a cure for cancer that has a 100% success rate. But it takes many man hours of work and thousands of dollars to cure each patient. Does the sudden existence of this procedure automatically give everyone the "right" to it? Would it be a rights violation for those who couldn't make use of it due to limited availability of time and resources? Did the right to that procedure exist while it was still in development?

Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 11:57:41 AM)
quote: Would it be a rights violation for those who couldn't make use of it due to limited availability of time and resources? How is this different from any other good? Allocation of scarce resources is the definition of economics. You're trying to isolate this as an exception--it's not; it's the rule.

Marini -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 12:05:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun Hypothetical situation to elaborate on my previous statement. Let's say someone spends years of his life and millions of dollars and comes up with a cure for cancer that has a 100% success rate. But it takes many man hours of work and thousands of dollars to cure each patient. Does the sudden existence of this procedure automatically give everyone the "right" to it? Would it be a rights violation for those who couldn't make use of it due to limited availability of time and resources? Did the right to that procedure exist while it was still in development? THIS! I fucking A appreciate your honesty, and I bet you can make it even more clear. Only the truth, and not bullshit lies can set people free. Why not elaborate even more, be specific and stop beating around the bush. thank you so much

Raiikun -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 12:09:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You're trying to isolate this as an exception--it's not; it's the rule. No, I'm not trying to isolate this as an exception.

Lucylastic -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 12:16:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Amen Marini! Thank you Lucy! We are already ass backwards with economy/jobs, now our fucking health care situation is nearing crisis fucking levels!!!! It seems like people outside the states can see how fucking crappy it is, easier than we can! We are going down, this current system will be crashing and burning, in the not so distant future, than people will REALLY have something to chat about. Unfucking real, we are number #37 on the WHO's list of health care, maybe if we slip to #90 behind Vietnam, Bangladesh, Nicaragua, Mexico and Cuba people will become more "vocal". The economy is touching us all world wide, That the healthcare in America is a constant source of disgust amongst those of us who have gasp socialist healthcare is a long time phenomenon. I know Ive been more than aware of it since 96, one only has to read some of the disgraceful situations that people just on collar me have had to put up with shows how bad it is and never fails to make me disheartened. I have very close friends and family who have suffered horribly thanks to insurance companies denying treatment options. Things arent all lollipops and unicorns in the UK or Canada, theres no doubt. But I will take their healthcare over the US system ANY day. Giving free reign to insurance companies is like giving pedophiles free reign to day care centers. Arguing over semantics is the favourite game of twits and they are happily ignoring that there is more than a real need to get some serious meaningful reform, and SOON before more people suffer, not in 20 years.

Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 12:22:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You're trying to isolate this as an exception--it's not; it's the rule. No, I'm not trying to isolate this as an exception. In which case, your argument is that due to economic constraints, we can't have rights to anything. For example, justice. It takes time, resources, money. What if everybody committed crimes, and we didn't have the resources to get them all justice? What then? It's a silly point. What if, for pennies on the dollar, good access to preventive health care cut incidences of cancer by 90%? As long as we're playing the hypothetical game. You ARE trying to isolating it, whether you recognize that or not.

Raiikun -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 12:34:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery You ARE trying to isolating it, whether you recognize that or not. No, I'm not. My feelings on that apply equally to justice, but this thread is about health care.

Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 12:45:05 PM)
Don't forget to eliminate police protection, the military, road construction, and all other services, all of which are subject to the same objection. In short, you don't feel we should have rights, at all. That's not this thread either.

Raiikun -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 12:56:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery In short, you don't feel we should have rights, at all. Not at all. I'm just operating under a different paradigm than you are. These are all services that are nice to have and should be available, but to call them "rights"... ...does someone who lives 500 miles from the nearest living person have the right to police protection, road construction, and those other services? And if so, would it be a violation of his rights if he can't get a crew to build a road 500 miles to his doorstep?

Marini -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/28/2012 12:57:47 PM)
quote: The economy is touching us all world wide, That the healthcare in America is a constant source of disgust amongst those of us who have gasp socialist healthcare is a long time phenomenon. I know Ive been more than aware of it since 96, one only has to read some of the disgraceful situations that people just on collar me have had to put up with shows how bad it is and never fails to make me disheartened. I have very close friends and family who have suffered horribly thanks to insurance companies denying treatment options. Things arent all lollipops and unicorns in the UK or Canada, theres no doubt. But I will take their healthcare over the US system ANY day. Giving free reign to insurance companies is like giving pedophiles free reign to day care centers. Arguing over semantics is the favourite game of twits and they are happily ignoring that there is more than a real need to get some serious meaningful reform, and SOON before more people suffer, not in 20 years. Amen! I agree, the economy is affecting everyone world-wide, but it's also a matter of putting an effort into what you really CARE about. PRIORITIES??? Like paying your mortgage or your rent, before buying new clothes. Health care/preventive quality care is not a PRIORITY here for many reasons. Now we can spend zillions of dollars fighting all over the world until the end of time, but single payer healthcare!! OMG!!!!

Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/28/2012 1:03:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery In short, you don't feel we should have rights, at all. Not at all. I'm just operating under a different paradigm than you are. These are all services that are nice to have and should be available, but to call them "rights"... ...does someone who lives 500 miles from the nearest living person have the right to police protection, road construction, and those other services? And if so, would it be a violation of his rights if he can't get a crew to build a road 500 miles to his doorstep? Road construction to his door is not a right. Justice, to use the example you also dislike, is a right. If he's accused of a crime, he has rights laid out legally. Without justice, law is meaningless, as is a Constitution.

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