RE: Stand Your Ground II (Full Version)

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Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 6:07:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

If we abolish every law that has been circumvented or missused we would live in total anarchy.


Well when anarchy comes I know you will be ready



Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 6:26:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro







Just for clarification.  What you are saying is that even though this law if fawled it should not be corrected in anyway because to do so would force you give up your gun?



I'm not saying the law is flawed but that criminals will just find some way around it anyway or ignore it altogether. It wouldn't necessarily force me to give up my gun but restrict it's use in common self defense situations.


 
Why wouldn't a correction work.  For example as the example :
In Florida, anyone can get a gun permit as long as they have not been convicted of a crime. In some cases, Almaguer claimed, individuals may have multiple of arrests, but they get to keep their gun permit until they have an actual conviction.  So say we add that arrests to the list of restrictions to CCW, do you think it would effect your right to a CCW?
 
Personally I have a big questions as to why Florida Department of Agricutltreu and Consumer Services, division of Licensing has control over CCW, I would think a Law Enforcement or Justice Division would?
 
 



GotSteel -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 6:30:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
So some of these guys have figured a way around it. It still doesn't make it right that a law abiding citizen should be denied the means of self defense all the while gang bangers are going to be packin regardless of the law.

Who's talking about denying law abiding citizens means of self defense? No really, I apparently missed that part of this thread, where is it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
In any case there are not so many of these guys that don't already have criminal records.

Oh you've checked? How many are there, what's the number?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
Your problem is that you don't like guns or citizens using them to defend themselves.

Anyone know where I can find an emoticon for liar liar pants on fire?

My father started teaching me to shoot with my grandma's .22 rifle when I was all of 4, I can remember when it took all the strength I had in both hands to pull the trigger of that tiny little rifle. Just in the bedroom I've got 3 guns with me.

Furthermore I'm in favor of legitimate self defense as I mentioned earlier in the thread. What I'm not in favor of is the taking of human life in situations that are easily avoidable. I guess you can call me pro-life that way [sm=dunno.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
Not only that but if the guy who legally has the gun ends up having to use it he won't be covered under SYG if it's a result of criminal activity

The problem with that being how SYG legalizes the gang related gun violence that Floridans are so keen on protecting themselves against. I would rather these gang thugs get arrested for shooting each other before yet another 5 year old gets killed in the cross fire.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
but he will be covered under 10 - 20 - life which I'm sure we can all agree is a good law.

When it comes to violent crime with deadly weapons I'm more of a one maybe two strikes at most man myself.



BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 6:47:40 PM)


Why wouldn't a correction work.  For example as the example :
In Florida, anyone can get a gun permit as long as they have not been convicted of a crime. In some cases, Almaguer claimed, individuals may have multiple of arrests, but they get to keep their gun permit until they have an actual conviction.  So say we add that arrests to the list of restrictions to CCW, do you think it would effect your right to a CCW?
 
Personally I have a big questions as to why Florida Department of Agricutltreu and Consumer Services, division of Licensing has control over CCW, I would think a Law Enforcement or Justice Division would?
 
 
[/quote]
A. Wouldn't have any affect on me.
B. The arraingement judge should already have the power to make that one of the bail conditions and the guts to use it.
C. Here the sheriff has control over it so I can't give an informed opinion
D. No reason there to abolish the law.



BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 6:52:56 PM)

You seem to go back and forth on this. There are ways to stop the things that you talk about without denying citizens the right to defend themselves. Also remember it isn't just a matter of saying "self defense" and that is the end of it. There is still an investigation and granting syg status is not automatic. That aspect of the law has been grossly missrepresented on here.



GotSteel -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I guess you not only favor guilty till proven innocent but also guilt by association


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Did you know that the strict New York gun laws were written so that the crook in charge of New York polotics at the time could see to it that only his thugs would have guns.?


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Much better to return to the nightmares of 30 people standing around watching someone being raped and murdered.


Who's grasping at straws around here?

By all means when confronted with evidence that your perceptions of the situation are not accurate don't head off to do some research or modify your positions because of what you've learned just retreat to off topic talking points

*face Palm*



BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:13:34 PM)

You say that self defense must be proven as oppsed to murder proven guilty until proven innocent
A man with a gun who has not committed a crime but is with someone who has should be arrest guilt by association
Sulliven law was an example of what gun control laws are about.
You where talking about the horror stories associated with SYG I responded with a horror story also true about a disarmed citizenery

Talking about the alternatives is not changing the subject and it is not grasping at straws it is just refusing to let you decide what is and what is not admissable



GotSteel -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:13:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If we abolish every law that has been circumvented or missused we would live in total anarchy.


Alternatively we could notice that SYG isn't working as envisioned, observe what's actually happening and re-write, patch or even rollback to the more standard self defense laws that already exist. I can't speak for other segments of the population but I can assure you that programmers would favor said option over either of the choices that you're presenting.



BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:18:32 PM)

I don't know for sure what the rules were in Fl before castle doctrin but in Alabama the bad guys could break into my house and cart everything I had off and if I tried to stop them I was the criminal as long as they didn't attack me. And if they lived their word had equal weight with mine when they pressed assault charges. Even then I had to give a verbal warning and fire a warning shot. I don't want to go back to that. Many of the traditional self defense laws were like that.



GotSteel -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:24:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You where talking about the horror stories associated with SYG I responded with a horror story also true about a disarmed citizenery

The difference being that SYG is the topic of the conversation. I'm not advocating disarming law abiding citizens, we weren't having that conversation. As such your response was completely off topic.



Kirata -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:42:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I can assure you that programmers would favor said option over either of the choices that you're presenting.

Speaking as someone who earned a living for part of his life as a programmer in Assembly and Perl, I can assure you that you are not a spokesman for programmers. I would add that how you could even imagine yourself to be authorized to speak in such a capacity is beyond my wildest guess, but it's not.

K.



GotSteel -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:43:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I think the point of these stand your ground nightmares is that the gun use is not rationally tied to self defense, and the law can legitimize the act of homicide for fights and disputes.


Yeah, that's the one.

These laws which authorize the use of deadly force in situations that one could simply walk away from implicitly sanction unnecessary killing.



BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:51:18 PM)

I also spent 20 years as a programmer.
Some on this thread have been advocating gun bans as the answer.
If there is a claim out there that we should go back to the old standard for self defenseIsn't it only fair that I point out what was wrong with those laws?

Did you know that in Fl if you claim SYG it is not automatic with you haveing to go to a special hearing where a judge rules on the validity of your claim.



Kirata -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 7:57:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

These laws which authorize the use of deadly force in situations that one could simply walk away from implicitly sanction unnecessary killing.

A requirement to retreat from a place one has a perfect legal right to be effectively turns our parks and streets over to the thugs and gangs who claim them as their territory. When someone used to end up raped or killed because they decided to go jogging at 2am in a public park known to be a hangout, it was not uncommon to hear people say it was her own fault.

What kind of fucking society is that? Our streets and parks are not "their" territory. And if it takes killing them to drive the point home, then the sooner the better. Because "unnecessary killing" is what happens when you don't.

K.



GotSteel -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 8:02:47 PM)

Who's advocating the end of castle doctrine? Where in this thread has anyone mentioned that they wanted to put an end to castle doctrine?

[8|] I mean seriously we're not even having a conversation anymore you're just writing random things that don't relate to what I or anyone else has said. You might as well just be spamming me with pictures of cats it wouldn't make any less sense.




[image]local://upfiles/566126/064F76C2F34A43AA855C82A2DBE87638.jpg[/image]



BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/6/2012 8:05:58 PM)

In some states SYG is part of castle doctrin for example where I live so it is relevant. In all states it is closly tied to castle doctrin.



Lucylastic -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/7/2012 12:08:55 AM)

In the most comprehensive effort of its kind, the Tampa Bay Times has identified nearly 200 "stand your ground'' cases and their outcomes. The Times identified cases through media reports, court records and dozens of interviews with prosecutors and defense attorneys across the state.

Among the findings:
Those who invoke "stand your ground" to avoid prosecution have been extremely successful. Nearly 70 percent have gone free.

• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white.

• The number of cases is increasing, largely because defense attorneys are using "stand your ground" in ways state legislators never envisioned. The defense has been invoked in dozens of cases with minor or no injuries. It has also been used by a self-described "vampire" in Pinellas County, a Miami man arrested with a single marijuana cigarette, a Fort Myers homeowner who shot a bear and a West Palm Beach jogger who beat a Jack Russell terrier.

• People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended. One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back. In nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim — and still went free.

• Similar cases can have opposite outcomes. Depending on who decided their cases, some drug dealers claiming self-defense have gone to prison while others have been set free. The same holds true for killers who left a fight, only to arm themselves and return. Shoot someone from your doorway? Fire on a fleeing burglar? Your case can swing on different interpretations of the law by prosecutors, judge or jury.

• A comprehensive analysis of "stand your ground" decisions is all but impossible. When police and prosecutors decide not to press charges, they don't always keep records showing how they reached their decisions. And no one keeps track of how many "stand your ground" motions have been filed or their outcomes.

Claiming "stand your ground,'' people have used force to meet force outside an ice cream parlor, on a racquetball court and at a school bus stop. Two-thirds of the defendants used

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1233133.ece
A HUGE link and interesting read
[image]http://stand-your-ground-law.s3.amazonaws.com/media/images/syg_graphic_web.png[/image]



GotSteel -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/7/2012 7:33:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In some states SYG is part of castle doctrin for example where I live so it is relevant. In all states it is closly tied to castle doctrin.


OK, I see where your coming from now, you've switched to defense of property. Sure I can get behind a mans home is his castle, a mans car is his castle, well the metaphor doesn't make sense anymore but sure I get the point. In reference to the OP, going up to someone, picking a fight and shooting his way out of it against an unarmed opponent who hasn't actually attacked is a mans castle...hell no. That's not castle doctrine, that's not closely tied to castle doctrine, that's wholly offensive to morality and the rule of law.



truckinslave -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/7/2012 7:38:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

A 1995 Northeastern study, this was before "Stand you Ground" laws, study people who claimed self defense, 48% of those who were killed, by people claiming self defense, did not have a weapon.


You have mentioned this bullshit study/statistic before.
I asked you then, and I ask you now, who cares?

So you like to live in Dodge City....okay.
So what?

As just one example-again- my mother is 82, and frail. If some crackhead or thugboy breaks in or her, or in some way assaults her on the street- she is armed. No one here is going to care much what he has in his hands, if anything, when she shoots him.

Why should they? Who? Cares?

Unless your one pet little study accounts for such examples in some way, it's clearly meaningless.

Isn't it?


While I appreciate the quote/plug/repetition, do you not have a comment?



Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/7/2012 8:31:55 AM)

Hey BamaD and Kirata what is your spin on this one?

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/man-claims-self-defense-fatal-shooting-neighbor-115652180--abc-news-topstories.html



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