Stand Your Ground II (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> Stand Your Ground II (6/1/2012 7:07:08 PM)

By now, the scene is familiar: Two men get into an altercation — one black, one Hispanic. One is armed with a handgun and shoots the other dead. The victim is unarmed; the shooter claims self-defense and walks free.

For more than a month, the victim's family waits to see whether authorities will file charges against the shooter.

Except this tragedy did not play out among the hedges of a Sanford, Fla. apartment complex, where a Hispanic neighborhood watch volunteer shot and killed an unarmed black teen. It occurred under the flourescent lights of a Taco Bell parking lot in Phoenix on April 3


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-27/stand-your-ground-law-trayvon-martin/55208980/1

For the record, I find the Martin case and this one equally upsetting, although this case seems less about police misconduct.




BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/1/2012 7:32:45 PM)

got any names so I can research it?




BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/1/2012 8:05:42 PM)

Checked your reference. Research was futile so I will refrain from comment till I know more.




tazzygirl -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/1/2012 8:11:35 PM)

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/29/us/stand-your-ground/index.html




BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/1/2012 10:05:19 PM)

Thank you




Kirata -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 1:21:45 AM)


I support the right to defend yourself against grievous bodily injury or imminent death anytime anywhere...

But this looks like murder to me.

K.




cloudboy -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 5:15:23 AM)


There's too much downside risk with stand your ground laws and not nearly enough public benefit. Why encourage the use of guns as a way to solve violent conflicts or to "protect" yourself from perceived threats.





Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 8:15:30 AM)

I said this before and I will say it again..."Welcome to Dodge City"  this is only the begining.




Kirata -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 8:29:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I said this before and I will say it again..."Welcome to Dodge City" this is only the begining.

Ohferfucksake, "Dodge City" my ass. We heard the same crap when states were moving to allow concealed carry. Let a bunch of "gun nuts" start walking around packing iron and the streets will run red with blood. But it didn't happen. Anywhere. And it isn't happening now. Let's move along to the hymn and get this service over with.

K.






Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 8:50:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I said this before and I will say it again..."Welcome to Dodge City" this is only the begining.

Ohferfucksake, "Dodge City" my ass. We heard the same crap when states were moving to allow concealed carry. Let a bunch of "gun nuts" start walking around packing iron and the streets will run red with blood. But it didn't happen. Anywhere. And it isn't happening now. Let's move along to the hymn and get this service over with.

K.





A 1995 Northeastern study, this was before "Stand you Ground" laws, study people who claimed self defense, 48% of those who were killed, by people claiming self defense, did not have a weapon.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 8:57:11 AM)

fast reply

Never fear, as soon as Sharpton and Jackson hear of this, they will have a rally and get this man arrested. They rage against all injustices yanno.

The whole thing, both cases, make me sick.




Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 9:41:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

fast reply

Never fear, as soon as Sharpton and Jackson hear of this, they will have a rally and get this man arrested. They rage against all injustices yanno.
The whole thing, both cases, make me sick.



You know I am really hoping they do show up. I am not a fan of either of them but as of now they are the only people who are willing to stand up against the NRA, who pour millions of dollars into the politians election funds, so they can get this law passed.

I can see it now the NRA using this as they do and will show proof that their "Stand Your Ground Law" has once again protected a family against a dangerous unarmed mentally disabled criminal who was going to murder and rape them.

Give me break






truckinslave -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 12:07:34 PM)

quote:

A 1995 Northeastern study, this was before "Stand you Ground" laws, study people who claimed self defense, 48% of those who were killed, by people claiming self defense, did not have a weapon.


You have mentioned this bullshit study/statistic before.
I asked you then, and I ask you now, who cares?
So what?

As just one example-again- my mother is 82, and frail. If some crackhead or thugboy breaks in or her, or in some way assaults her on the street- she is armed. No one here is going to care much what he has in his hands, if anything, when she shoots him.

Why should they? Who? Cares?

Unless your one pet little study accounts for such examples in some way, it's clearly meaningless.

Isn't it?




kalikshama -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 12:17:45 PM)

I am not sympathetic to the shooter as I believe he had lots of options other than deadly force:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/29/us/stand-your-ground/index.html

It was April 3 -- 37 days after Martin's death in Florida. Daniel Adkins Jr. walked past Taco Bell's drive-thru just as a 22-year-old man pulled around in his SUV to pick up his order. Sitting in the passenger seat was his pregnant fiancée.

CNN is withholding the shooter's name because he has not been charged with a crime. A police report describes how the deadly confrontation unfolded.

The driver slammed on the brakes, just missing Adkins. The two men exchanged words.

The shooter told police that Adkins "air swung" his hands in the direction of the SUV, but acknowledged he never hit him or his vehicle. Still, he said, he was afraid of what Adkins might do with the weapon he believed he was carrying. Although a weapon was never found, the shooter described it as a 3-foot metal pipe or bat.

When Adkins lifted his hands in the air again, the driver drew his Smith and Wesson .40-caliber handgun from his sweatpants. He pointed the barrel at Adkins from inside his car and racked the slide of the gun, putting a bullet in the chamber. Then he pulled the trigger.

Struck in the chest, Adkins fell to the ground, face first, clutching Lady's leash. The lab stayed at her master's side, even as the life drained out of him.

The shooter pulled around to the front of the Taco Bell as his fiancée called 911.

He told police he had no choice but to shoot. He said he couldn't drive away from Adkins because the dog was in the way and he "thought he had no other options," according to the police report.

While the shooter said he did not believe Adkins would have killed him and his fiancée had he not fired, he also said he feared Adkins was trying to hurt him.

Police turned over their findings to the district attorney's office. Prosecutors have sent it back for further investigation.




BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 12:26:27 PM)

In the early days of boom towns violence was so bad that crime rates approached those of modern day LA and Detroit.

That said the case in Az doesn't fit self defense, or stand your ground, unless there is some dramatic infomation the writer left out.

If Sharpon and Jackson show they will be somehow supporting the shooter in this one.




kalikshama -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 12:26:49 PM)

I believe this shooting was justified - despite and after a warning shot into the grass, the 35 year old intruder came into the shooter's house. Sounds like he'd sustained a brain injury earlier in the night, but like the 77 year old shooter said, "We didn't have time to psychoanalyze him."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/29/us/stand-your-ground/index.html

Shortly after 2 a.m. on November 3, 2004, Workman shot and killed 35-year-old Rodney Cox, a FEMA worker from North Carolina who had come to his house near Pensacola, Florida, and asked for a drink of water.

Workman and his wife, Kathryn, were staying in an RV in the driveway of their home. Hurricane Ivan had made landfall seven weeks earlier, collapsing their front porch and peeling back the roof. The damaged house was unlivable.

It was a scary time on Florida's Perdido Key. People were camped out everywhere, and nerves were frayed. It felt like they were living in a war zone.

Just a week or two before, police subdued a man with a machete at the house next door. And a few days earlier, while they were away, someone in a camper parked in front of their house, used their hose and left the water running.

On a recent weekday, Kathryn Workman, now 62, stood with her husband in front of their tidy brick house with the sweeping view of Big Lagoon and the sugar sand dunes along the Gulf of Mexico. She stepped around her driveway, re-enacting events still vivid in her mind.

It was warm and windy that night and she couldn't sleep. As she reached to adjust a window, she spotted a stranger headed toward the front door of the house. She woke her husband, who grabbed his .38, and stepped outside.

The stranger mumbled and asked for a drink of water. Workman ordered him to "Get on out of here," and fired the warning shot into the grass. Instead, the man bolted toward the trailer where Kathryn was backed up against the kitchen sink, a phone in one hand and her own .38-caliber handgun in the other.

She screamed, telling the 911 dispatcher: "He's in the trailer. He's in the trailer with us. ... Please, oh please God ... He is in here."

There were sounds of a struggle. Seconds later, Kathryn Workman told the dispatcher her husband had shot the intruder.
"He dropped down after a point, and then he got back up," she told CNN, adding that she and her husband tried to edge him toward the RV door. "He died, well, I don't know if he was dead then, but he collapsed right in front of our TV."

When the police came, they had to escort the couple over the body. It was blocking the only way out.

How Rodney Cox, the man Workman shot and killed, came to be on the couple's front lawn -- and inside their trailer -- remains a mystery. But his sister, Terri Lavery, says he was not a drunken, drug-addled drifter up to no good. He was the father of two, married to his high school sweetheart, a successful building contractor who "was kind of preppie."

And on that night, he was a man looking for help.

A few hours before he was shot to death, Cox had called 911 himself, saying he was a victim of domestic violence. It was his first night in the Pensacola area, and he was staying in a camper about two miles from the Workman house.

But he kept giving the dispatcher the wrong address, explaining in frustration, "I'm not from around here."

The deputy who found Cox reported that the man appeared to be intoxicated, describing him as "very jumpy" and "unable to stand still." He said Cox had trouble completing his sentences and was difficult to understand. He did not make note of any injuries.

At some point during the evening, Cox had been hit over the head. The blow was hard enough to fracture his skull, an autopsy showed; his sister believes this may explain his erratic behavior.

Workman knew none of that at 2 a.m., of course. It was dark, his wife was screaming, a stranger was holding him in a bear hug, and there was no time to think it all through.

"We didn't have time to psychoanalyze him," Workman explained.

He added that he made his decision in a heartbeat and feels he was justified. After reviewing the case for nearly four months, a prosecutor agreed and decided not to file charges against Workman.




BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 12:28:42 PM)

Check Tazzygirls link.
It gives several other tragic but legitimate cases in addition to this one.
Kalikshama has elaborated on one of them.




Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 12:31:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

A 1995 Northeastern study, this was before "Stand you Ground" laws, study people who claimed self defense, 48% of those who were killed, by people claiming self defense, did not have a weapon.


You have mentioned this bullshit study/statistic before.
I asked you then, and I ask you now, who cares?

So you like to live in Dodge City....okay.
So what?

As just one example-again- my mother is 82, and frail. If some crackhead or thugboy breaks in or her, or in some way assaults her on the street- she is armed. No one here is going to care much what he has in his hands, if anything, when she shoots him.

Why should they? Who? Cares?

Unless your one pet little study accounts for such examples in some way, it's clearly meaningless.

Isn't it?




Nosathro -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 12:32:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Check Tazzygirls link.
It gives several other tragic but legitimate cases in addition to this one.
Kalikshama has elaborated on one of them.


So murder is in your view justified.... the death of a persom with the mind of a 13 year old...what courage and bravery..... A Defense Lawyer was interviewed on CNN about the Zimmerman case, I did not agree with alot he said but one point he did make, "Zimmerman would not have been so brave if he didn't have a gun"




BamaD -> RE: Stand Your Ground II (6/2/2012 1:23:05 PM)

Again you leave out two critical points.
One I said it was tragic.
Two 13 year old and 3 friends, the guy said the kid lunged on him he could have used that term to decribe a move that did not require him to get up.

Then it is a 4 to 1 hand to hand fight, kind of changes things doesn't it.

The whole thing could have been avoided if the kids just didn't break into his home.

Clearly we would be a better society if people were required to hide from the bad guys help them load up whatever they wanted of yours and hoped the the cops caught them before the sold the stuff off.

Yep thats a world I want to live in.




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