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ORIGINAL: subrob1967

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In a communist utopia there wouldn't be any incentive to change anything.

As long as you choose to be ignorant of your subject you will continue to post peurile tripe lilke this.

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If Joe the plumber is making or has the same amount of "widgets" as Colleen the CEO, where is the incentive for Joe to branch out and start his own plumbing business?

If joe has the same amout of widgets as colleen why would he want to branch out and start his own plumbing business instead of buying a boat and going fishing next to colleen?

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While I'm sure there are selfless people out there, willing to do twice the work as their neighbor. Sooner or later they will come to realize that the neighbor has stopped working all together, because of his extra effort, and either stop working so hard, or become unable to carry the neighbor's load.

A false premis will always lead to a false conclusion.
Why do you assume that one will always do twice the work of another?
Why do you assume that others are lazy?

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Communism is a race to the bottom, Capitalism is a race to the top, where would you rather hang your hat?

If onw were to compare and contrast the russia of today to the russia of the tsar one could hardly characterize it as a race to the bottom. If one were to compare and contrast the u.s. of today with the u.s. of 50 -60 years ago one would have to acknowledge that wealth has been more and more cncentrated...hardly a race to the top for any but those at the top.

(in reply to subrob1967)

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
Both systems are fatally flawed.
Communism rejects human nature which of course does not work for long.
Capitalism amplifies the worst aspects of humanity and has repeatedly failed and been propped back up due to a lack of a better idea.

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Few will disagree with you that Capitalism is flawed. I'm not one of them. There isn't an unflawed system out there. Communism, socialism, etc. have all been tried and failed several times over.

Perhaps you might cite some specifics to validate the above.

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While Capitalism isn't perfect, either, it still has done one helluva job building our standard of living here.

It would appear that you do not watch the news or read newspapers.

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You want to talk about income and wealth disparities, look at what we have in the US vs. what others have outside of the US. Look how much we have.

I think what you mean is look how much the rich have

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Look at how large our properties are. It's ridiculous. Better hope there isn't a World-wide "Occupy the USA" movement. We could be fucked.

Wrong tense

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

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A lot of it boils down to who is responsible for the meeting of those needs. Is it government that should provide for those needs, or is it on the individual? If it's on government, then they need to provide housing, food, and water. In places where the climate changes greatly, they'll also need to provide heating and cooling services, too. Obviously, that's not the way things are here (and I'm not sure there are any places that way), though.

Who *should* be responsible for making sure the basic needs are met?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Marini
I think most of us can agree on the "basic needs"- {oxygen, food, water, shelter, clothing}.
I am an American citizen and as a citizen of THIS country, I also want to include, the NEED for preventive, emergency, and certain life sustaining medical care.

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Those "needs" can be met as you read this. What most people who gripe about our health care delivery system are really griping about is how expensive it is (and I am in that group). But, if someone has to provide that service, who should be paying for it? How much should the provider be paid? Who should get to decide what the provider gets paid?

Who pays for the fire department? How much do fire fighters get paid? Who decides that? You have aked questions that the answer to is well known. If it works for fire fighters why not doctors etc.?

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Medical care is not a right. I can even make the statement that it's a want. The only time you actually need non-emergency care is to extend your life. Emergency care isn't even a right, even the care that isn't dealing with the life-threatening incidents (ie. broken leg).

If you choose to be a "rugged individualist" then by all means do so. You will not be entitled to any thing that society brought before you were born nor anything that society developed after you were born.
If you choose to be a member of society remember that that membership carries responsibilities comensurate with the priviledges of membership.
It seems you are not comfortable paying your dues to belong to a pretty exclusive club.

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A lot of it boils down to who is responsible for the meeting of those needs. Is it government that should provide for those needs, or is it on the individual? If it's on government, then they need to provide housing, food, and water. In places where the climate changes greatly, they'll also need to provide heating and cooling services, too. Obviously, that's not the way things are here (and I'm not sure there are any places that way), though.

Who *should* be responsible for making sure the basic needs are met?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/11/2012 7:58:17 AM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

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And here, again, is where you are bitching about the cost of care being so high. Why is it the Community's problem if you are in pain? Was it the Community's fault your leg is broken? Why does the cost of fixing your leg fall on the Community when it wasn't at fault?

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You require food to live, but if you go into a random stranger's house and start eating their food, can you tell them to fuck off because you have the right to their food because of a right to Life? Same goes with water.

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The right to Liberty isn't infringed by anyone if you are responsible for your actions. In fact, if you aren't taking care of your own issues, you are infringing on the every one's right to Liberty. You are forcing them to provide for you. If you call that Liberty for them, you need to look up some definitions.

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Demanding a specific level of happiness can not be given without taking from someone else. And, that, requires an infringement on their liberty, freedom, and, possibly, their chosen pursuit of happiness.

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Your right to Life is not infringed on if you are denied medical care you have not purchased. . . .Can you not see that the only way you have a right to an actual commodity, it has to be taken from someone else?

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Government is instituted among Men, why? To secure our rights. That isn't providing our rights. It is all about making our rights safe, protecting our rights. Government gets it's authorities and powers from us. It doesn't give us our rights.

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2. Rights and privileges: Why do some people state, as though they are unassailable truths, that X is not a right, though Y is? This is bollocks. God didn't invent what we now consider to be rights, nor did the writers of any given nation's constitution. What falls under the rubric of 'Rights' is not immutable. We are free to re-designate.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB
I only have one word for the American medical system ....... Corrupt

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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As far as the first two go, the wrong way to change it is to give more power and authority to the government. Democrats are for sale. Republicans are for sale. Hell, Independents are probably for sale. There are a few here and there from each party that aren't for sale, but they are far and away the minority.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

As long as you choose to be ignorant of your subject you will continue to post peurile tripe lilke this.

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If joe has the same amout of widgets as colleen why would he want to branch out and start his own plumbing business instead of buying a boat and going fishing next to colleen?[

quote:



A false premis will always lead to a false conclusion.
Why do you assume that one will always do twice the work of another?
Why do you assume that others are lazy?

quote:


If onw were to compare and contrast the russia of today to the russia of the tsar one could hardly characterize it as a race to the bottom. If one were to compare and contrast the u.s. of today with the u.s. of 50 -60 years ago one would have to acknowledge that wealth has been more and more cncentrated...hardly a race to the top for any but those at the top.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
1. There seems to be little understanding of the subjectivity involved in distinguishing between needs and wants. I saw a cartoon once in which a man and his wife were walking out of the front door of their castle and towards their Rolls Royce. The man says to his wife, "Isn't it wonderful that we have so many more basic needs than everyone else?"

quote:


2. Rights and privileges: Why do some people state, as though they are unassailable truths, that X is not a right, though Y is? This is bollocks. God didn't invent what we now consider to be rights, nor did the writers of any given nation's constitution. What falls under the rubric of 'Rights' is not immutable. We are free to re-designate.

quote:


3. There seems to be almost no sense of the difference between negative and positive freedoms here. That is, the difference between 'freedom from' and 'freedom to'. Modern liberals would point, for instance, to the American constitution's phrase ' . . . the pursuit of happiness' and argue that no-one is *free to* pursue happiness if, for instance, they are still grappling with the bottom level of Maslow's pyramid of values. Now, we can all rubbish the argument by giving extreme examples (e.g. I can't pursue happiness unless I have a Rolls Royce, etc, etc) but it's surely feeble to argue that someone is free to pursue happiness if he's in great physical pain.

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4. 'Individual responsibility' is one of those phrases so beloved of the Right. But the community *also* has a responsibility. Were that not to be the case, there'd be no governments, no armies and no police forces. You *do not* get out of your collective responsibility as a community by continually growling about individual responsibility. And you have to have the political and economic institutions in place to facilitate, rather than erode, both individual *and* community responsibilities.

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Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

so you are entitled to SERVICES OTHERS PROVIDE as a business.

I want steak and lobster every day, PROVIDE it for me.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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As far as the first two go, the wrong way to change it is to give more power and authority to the government. Democrats are for sale. Republicans are for sale. Hell, Independents are probably for sale. There are a few here and there from each party that aren't for sale, but they are far and away the minority.

Maybe the way to change it is too take money out of politics. By your reasoning, is there anything we should intrust to government?

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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So Russia is your shining example of how a communist government should work? Really? Got any links to verify your bullshit, or are you spouting nonsense yet again?

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What is more likely to give incentive for business to spend gajillions of dollars on lobbyists: Government that has direct control of 5% GDP or Government that has direct control of 20% GDP?

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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So Russia is your shining example of how a communist government should work? Really? Got any links to verify your bullshit, or are you spouting nonsense yet again?

Russia is not and has not ever been communist.
A quick check of google should give you access to what the relative differences are between tsarist russia and socialist russia vis-a-vis sufferage,literacy,education,economic stability or any other measure of comparison you would like to apply.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Marx wrote the book titled "Communist Manifesto" (1848), which advocated a system without classes and privately-owned property.

Neither of which happened in the Soviet Union, so communism wouldn't quite be the correct nomenclature.  You might call it Marxism-Leninism by example, but no more than all crescent wrenches (adjustable spanners for the brits) are actually made by the Crescent company, neither would it be punctillious to call the Nazis socialists or the Soviet Union communist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I think most of us can agree on the "basic needs"- {oxygen, food, water, shelter, clothing}.

I am an American citizen and as a citizen of THIS country, I also want to include, the NEED for preventive, emergency, and certain life sustaining medical care.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Marx wrote the book titled "Communist Manifesto" (1848), which advocated a system without classes and privately-owned property.

Neither of which happened in the Soviet Union, so communism wouldn't quite be the correct nomenclature.  You might call it Marxism-Leninism by example, but no more than all crescent wrenches (adjustable spanners for the brits) are actually made by the Crescent company, neither would it be punctillious to call the Nazis socialists or the Soviet Union communist.

Um Mean Street, they called THEMSELVES communist, you want to argue that too? BTW you misspelled punctilious... Just sayin'