joether
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Um, no, health care isn't a right. Period.
Health Care is neither a right nor a privilage.
It is a needed concept.
A needed concept that trumps the right and the privilage!
I'm going to take the wild guess you have never had a serious injury nor illness that required intensive health treatment. Those that endure through it, without health coverage are buried under tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical bills. Which does help explain why medical bankruptcy is STILL the #1 reason for bankruptcies in America. When you are in great pain, you will do and say ANYTHING to make it stop. You have never been subjected to this sort of torture. Hence, your stance on health coverage for all US Citizens. I guess you are one of those people DS, that truely 'gets off' on the suffering of others. Which has become a rather typical principle of conservative politics these days.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Denial of health care is not infringing on your right to life. Health care will not provide you life, nor will lack of health care kill you. Health care very well may extend your life, but that is significantly different. Health care is a commodity. Whether you like it or not, it is. Someone has to produce it, or provide it. It has to be paid for. You do not have a right to that which someone else has created without having some sort of negotiation as to the transfer of ownership of that commodity.
Denial of FIREARMS is not infringing on your right to life.....EITHER.
Are you REALLY so hateful of your fellow Americans, that you would deny them health coverage and access because it would make you feel better? Remeber on another thread a few weeks ago DS, that you told all of us (and me in pariicular) that you are different from most conservatives? Well, your not; you just showed evidence of such! Health care is NOT a commodity to be bought and sold like gold or oranges. Health care is a concept that seems beyond your level of reasoning as it effects people in ways hard to explain with this medium of media.
Maybe the doctors you have been around at the types that went to medical school for the money. The doctors I see, do it to actually help their fellow man. Getting paid to do it is just gravy on top. Many of them would rather see happy, healthy Americans (not to mention those around the world). In fact, would rather spend money on some poor guy that doesnt have health insurance than one of those rich F***s that feel they can treat doctor's and nurses like their maids and cooks (like sh*t). There are two groups of people in ER beds, DS: 1) The kind that feel everything is owed to them, and demand everyone's attention to the little stuff (cus by God, they are paying for it!). 2) The patient, gentle, and polite types that thank their doctors and nurses for all the help, regardless of how small. Doctors and (more importantly) nurses will move mountains for the 2nd type and give the bare minimal to the 1st. I've observed it countless times in the last decade.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
My marriage recently ended (just over 5 weeks ago) and I no longer have insurance. I went and got a Rx refilled two days ago. I'm shocked, to be honest. With insurance, my co-pay was $10 on a one-month supply of this medicine. The U & C price for this medicine's 30 day quantity is $90. Saved $80 because of insurance. Would pay $30 for a 3-month supply and save $240. Now, I no longer have insurance and I notified the pharmacy. They said what they would do is price shop it and get me the best deal. I was shocked when I picked up my Rx and was charged $26.49. I was surprised that I wasn't paying more. What made an even bigger surprise, though, was that I paid $26.49 for a 3 month supply. I paid less than what I would have paid with my old insurance, for the same stuff. Now, that may have to do with it being a 3-month supply (thought the U&C didn't change) and my old insurance not allowing more than a monthly fill. Talk about a scam. I'm even more pissed at insurance than I was before.
If you were a resident of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts the pain of switching health plans would not be as dramatic or painful as in the rest of the nation. I got a drug from a doctor that costed me $1. Under most of the medical plans for MA (i.e private insurance), the drug would cost $42-75. For those without health insurance, $104! Under the Affordable Care Act, you can keep your doctor even if you switch your insurance plan. Under Mass Health, all US Citizens are coveraged by some form of health insurance (and its better than most think).
But it seems you support a company's right to gouge customers/patients at will, and bitch about it all at the same time. You deny health coverage to others, and bitch when your finally on the recieving end. You dont get it both ways!
quote:
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I would argue that food would be a right before healthcare, not that I think food is a right to begin with. For people who can't afford things, stuff, "needs," they have to rely on the charity of others. Government provision is not charity. Charity is one freely giving of one's stuff to someone with less stuff, or to an agency that provides stuff to people with less stuff. Government taking through threat of force, penalty, and or incarceration, is not "freely giving of one's stuff."
Sorry, but 'food' and 'water' fall under 'health care'. Since you already dislike Americans you dont know from getting basic medical care, why should you care if they eat or drink? Charities, do not have the scale of economies to handle the level of care needed to treat the number of people without health coverage. Hell, this past winter, many food pantries almost ran out of provisions. If not for many good people (most of us are pretty liberal) and the goverement stepping in, there would have been a real disaster. I believe several of us shelled out several hundreds of dollars. Imagine if we found some 'conservative' types like you that werent total misers.....might not have had to pay so much! But than, if they did, they couldnt call themselves 'conservative' anymore. Since being a modern day conservative is all about NOT helping their fellow Americans out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Stuff is not a right. Stuff is a privilege. Government provision of stuff will breed two things. 1. Greater Government provision, and 2. Citizens who rely on Government provision, including some who will rely on Government to the point where they will make choices so as to remain getting government provisions when they no longer truly need to rely on Government. Notice, only some people will abuse the system, and I am in no way implying that all who rely on Government provision would be abusing the system.
Yes, the rate of fraud is not only in the single digits but less than 4%! I get this same exact reaction from many conservatives. That they literally feel tens of percentage points of people are actually milking the system, when the opposite is true. It ranks right up there with the 'Voter Fraud' thread we had a few weeks back. Even with study, examples, and evidence, the conservatives on that thread, STILL believed in a fantasy that was based on no actual evidence. In fact, most conservatives deny Climate Change basing their thoughts on very little facts or evidence. Then of course, there is arguements that the EPA, CDC and the Dept of Education do not do anything at the federal level, when of course, there is a whooping amount of evidence to the contrary! Heck, conservatives *STILL* support our 'intervention' into Iraq over those phantom WMD's a second time if they could (since throwing American soldier's lives away is 'ok', in conservative 'principles').
If 'Stuff is not a right', than firearms can be ban and the 2nd Amendment repleaded! I cant believe a conservative would actually say this and NOT think about what they just said. 
Maybe DS, you are unaware of a very bad recession this nation was in recently? Many companies folded, tens of thousands of people lost their jobs (not to mention their homes, bank accounts and/or retirement funds). And without the goverment stepping in to create an artifical deman for the massive supply in the marketplace, this nation would have been in a second, full blown depression (one that would trump the first one). Did you read the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, DS, or did someone tell you what to think on it? That bill, did exactly as it was intended to do: kept people in jobs and maybe hire those recently laid off from other ones. Explaining it, indepth would be beyond the nature of this thread, and probably STILL not be understood by most of the conservatives on here. But, the goverment acted, to protect America from downfall AGAINST the objections of conservatives.
And what did those people do, after they lost their health insurance, were not in Mass, and beyond COBRA.....BUT....still had a serious health problem to deal with? They suffered, DS. They went deeper in debt. A debt that will either take them a VERY long time to pay, or go bankrupt (which is how this post got started...). Is that REALLY what you enjoy as a conservative? Watching your fellow Americans suffer in pain and problems? Is that what it REALLY means to be a 'modern day conservative'? Obviously, you have never really suffered in life; otherwise, you'd have some humility, humanity, compassion, and oh yes.....consideration......of others.
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