quote:

Health care is a commodity. Whether you like it or not, it is. Someone has to produce it, or provide it. It has to be paid for. You do not have a right to that which someone else has created without having some sort of negotiation as to the transfer of ownership of that commodity.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Denial of health care is not infringing on your right to life. Health care will not provide you life, nor will lack of health care kill you.

Tell that to a diabetic who'll be dead in six months without regular insulin shots, or a cancer patient who probably won't even last that long without chemotherapy.

Um, Moonhead, you're saying, then, that the cancer or the diabetes isn't what is going to kill those people? Seriously?

No, I'm saying that in those two cases, the people in question won't die of their condition if it receives medical treatment. Type 1 diabetes is the most obvious example of a condition that can be controlled but will still kill somebody if left untreated. Tweak has suggested a few more, but you don't appear to be accepting any of those either...

Thank you for acknowledging the real cause of death.

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when it comes to people and data I have the memory of a London cabbie. It's served me well.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Denial of health care is not infringing on your right to life. Health care will not provide you life, nor will lack of health care kill you.

Tell that to a diabetic who'll be dead in six months without regular insulin shots, or a cancer patient who probably won't even last that long without chemotherapy.

Um, Moonhead, you're saying, then, that the cancer or the diabetes isn't what is going to kill those people? Seriously?

No, I'm saying that in those two cases, the people in question won't die of their condition if it receives medical treatment. Type 1 diabetes is the most obvious example of a condition that can be controlled but will still kill somebody if left untreated. Tweak has suggested a few more, but you don't appear to be accepting any of those either...

Thank you for acknowledging the real cause of death.

Thank you for ignoring the rebuttal of your original asinine point as though it hadn't happened.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Health care is a commodity. Whether you like it or not, it is. Someone has to produce it, or provide it. It has to be paid for. You do not have a right to that which someone else has created without having some sort of negotiation as to the transfer of ownership of that commodity.

Others have replied eloquently to your assertion, so I will keep my comments brief.

By the same reasoning that you apply we would have no expectation to the right of safety in our communities because someone (police, firemen, EMS) has to produce it, or provide it, and it has to be paid for. So, safety is not a right but a commodity. So, the poor person who pays no taxes would be dependent for safety on the charity of others. Tough shit. You're poor. Let your shelter burn to the ground. Having a heart attack? Don't call 911. This an example of the flaw in your reasoning.

I understand your slavish clinging to the original intent of the Founders but I do not agree with it. Our Constitution is a fine but flawed document. That it why it is subject to amendment. The failure to abolish slavery is one example where changes in time and circumstance caught up to original intent.

Additionally and most importantly, there are universal human rights which supercede any and every national document, however well intended they may be.

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ORIGINAL: Deliena
I think you missed the true cause of death. The true cause of death is life. Everyone *will* die. That is an actual fact. How, when and why each individual will die is a different matter.

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Some conditions can be controlled and as such most people consider that medical intervention in these cases (for example Type I diabetes) is a good idea. After all it is the reason we have doctors. However it seems to me that you consider that medical intervention isn't *necessary* and yet you made a long post about some regular medication you are on. Why don't you stop taking it? Because you choose not to. You are able to pay for your medication and you wish to improve your quality of life and perhaps your longevity (I didn't recognise the type of medication you mentioned so I am unclear what condition it treats and whether it is life-threatening or not) which you do by taking your medication in conjunction with advice from healthcare professionals. That is your choice. But it does not make it more correct than any other choice that people make on this issue.

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Out of interest, where do you stand on medical intervention for animals? Would you have a dog with cancer treated or put down? Do you think that there is a fundamental difference between how people in general treat their pets and other humans? I've noticed a lot of people would pay for vet services when they claim that healthcare isn't a requirement for life.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Health care is a commodity. Whether you like it or not, it is. Someone has to produce it, or provide it. It has to be paid for. You do not have a right to that which someone else has created without having some sort of negotiation as to the transfer of ownership of that commodity.

Others have replied eloquently to your assertion, so I will keep my comments brief.
By the same reasoning that you apply we would have no expectation to the right of safety in our communities because someone (police, firemen, EMS) has to produce it, or provide it, and it has to be paid for. So, safety is not a right but a commodity. So, the poor person who pays no taxes would be dependent for safety on the charity of others. Tough shit. You're poor. Let your shelter burn to the ground. Having a heart attack? Don't call 911. This an example of the flaw in your reasoning.

quote:

I understand your slavish clinging to the original intent of the Founders but I do not agree with it. Our Constitution is a fine but flawed document. That it why it is subject to amendment. The failure to abolish slavery is one example where changes in time and circumstance caught up to original intent.

quote:

Additionally and most importantly, there are universal human rights which supercede any and every national document, however well intended they may be.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Actually, the reason I brought up my medication purchase (which was paid by me, and only me; no insurance, no government) was to point out the ridiculous fact that my medication was cheaper than had I still had my previous insurance.

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when it comes to people and data I have the memory of a London cabbie. It's served me well.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
No rebuttal was given outside of making my point. Your rebuttal that the "people in question won't die of their condition if it receives medical treatment" is not a rebuttal to lack of health care not causing death. You even have the phrase, "of their condition" attached to the verb "to die." You have yet to show me where lack of health care caused the death. The condition for which they seek health care caused their death. You have even stated it in your very own words.

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nor will lack of health care kill you

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And, yes, safety is a commodity to a degree. However, the police are there to protect our rights, not provide them. They are not needed until rights are infringed, or are in imminent danger of being infringed.

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Actually, the failure to abolish slavery was a concession to get the southern delegates to pass the Constitution and to get the southern states to ratify it. Plain and simple.

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In the bolded part of your text, what do you not agree with? Do you not agree with my "slavish clinging to original intent," or the original intent of the Founders?

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So, are you going to tell me that you argued against Obamacare on the basis that illegal immigrants are people, so they have every right to our medical care as we do?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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DesideriScuri
And you can not prove to me that lack of health care killed anyone.

Are you serious? Something as elementary as a simple cut can eventually become life threatening if left untreated. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of simple medical problems that, left untreated, are life threatening. For example, malaria is easily treated but kills millions annually because the victims do not have access to proper medical care or the drugs that eliminate fatalities due to malaria.

Thank you for supporting my claim.

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You can take the word of the Institute of Medicine and the discipline of Medical Science for it. Alternatively if you still require further proof, there's a simple way of testing this claim yourself. Just go without any healthcare of any kind and see how long you last. Please advise where to send the flowers before you leave us.
Your childish refusal to accept time-tested universally-accepted facts is a textbook example of ideology blinding people to basic facts, and their own best interests. Can I suggest that, next time you are in the doctor's waiting room you ponder this ... it could end up saving your life. Despite our differences, I would hate to see you join the many tens of thousands of other Americans who die due to lack of health care annually.

"Lack of Health Care" will not kill anybody. Ever. Never will.

Do you understand the difference between "taking away life" and "not extending life?"

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When offered a choice between human empathy or ideology, between saving peoples lives or blind adherence to a narrow controversial interpretation of a centuries old document, it seems that nothing will deter from your blind self-imposed slavery to ideology.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
No rebuttal was given outside of making my point. Your rebuttal that the "people in question won't die of their condition if it receives medical treatment" is not a rebuttal to lack of health care not causing death. You even have the phrase, "of their condition" attached to the verb "to die." You have yet to show me where lack of health care caused the death. The condition for which they seek health care caused their death. You have even stated it in your very own words.

You didn't say this, then?

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nor will lack of health care kill you

I cited a couple of cases where lack of health care will kill you, and the fact that you were wrong about that seems to have gone right over your pointy little head.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I see that you persist in making your false and misleading claim, despite it's transparent falsity being amply and repeatedly demonstrated by others and myself. It would appear that your position is impervious to facts.

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I have no intention of getting sucked in by your tendentious hair splitting, particularly when people's health and lives are the issue. I doubt that I could highlight the total absence of empathy in your position any more or better than you have already. When offered a choice between human empathy or ideology, between saving peoples lives or blind adherence to a narrow controversial interpretation of a centuries old document, it seems that nothing will deter from your blind self-imposed slavery to ideology.
Your posts and your position sound so infantile any further response is superfluous. It might only give some limited credence to total gibberish.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
No rebuttal was given outside of making my point. Your rebuttal that the "people in question won't die of their condition if it receives medical treatment" is not a rebuttal to lack of health care not causing death. You even have the phrase, "of their condition" attached to the verb "to die." You have yet to show me where lack of health care caused the death. The condition for which they seek health care caused their death. You have even stated it in your very own words.

You didn't say this, then?

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nor will lack of health care kill you

I cited a couple of cases where lack of health care will kill you, and the fact that you were wrong about that seems to have gone right over your pointy little head.

Let's set this straight, right here and now.

How does lack of health care kill you?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I have no problem admitting to being wrong, when I am wrong. I have no problem admitting to being wrong and acknowledging when I was wrong, how I was wrong, and thanking the corrector, but no one has proven me wrong.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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And, yes, safety is a commodity to a degree. However, the police are there to protect our rights, not provide them. They are not needed until rights are infringed, or are in imminent danger of being infringed.

And a woman may be pregnant to a degree? Either she is pregnant or not. Either the expectation of safety is a commodity or it is not. Exactly! We have police to protect our right to safety. Even when they are not called to the house, their presence in the community defends my safety. Your insistence that a right is not a right if it is provided and paid for takes market thinking to extremes and reveals your limited understanding of "community." By no stretch of your imagination can you make safety of the individual in society a commodity, unless you are rehersing for a turn at stand-up comedy.

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Actually, the failure to abolish slavery was a concession to get the southern delegates to pass the Constitution and to get the southern states to ratify it. Plain and simple.

The Founders didn't have the balls to tell South Carolina to fuck off. So much for the courage and wisdom of the founders. It wasn't until President Jackson slapped their ass down over thir claim of the "right" to nullification that SC was properly put in its place.

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In the bolded part of your text, what do you not agree with? Do you not agree with my "slavish clinging to original intent," or the original intent of the Founders?

ummm . . . both your clinging to the concept and the concept that the founders spoke with infinate wisdom on behalf of all ages to follow. They treated blacks as property and women as lacking citizenship. A war was fought over the first issue and a long crusade was needed to gain Suffrage for women.

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So, are you going to tell me that you argued against Obamacare on the basis that illegal immigrants are people, so they have every right to our medical care as we do?

I never argued for or against Obamacare. And I never said that illegal immigrants have a right to our medical care. This statement reveals that in your heart you agree that our medical care is a right, but just not to illegals. It also reveals that you have no clue regarding universal human rights. Are you telling me that emergency room doctors should inquire for birth certificates and visas before they treat any indigent for a wound?

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From the Virginia Declaration of Rights, June 12, 1776:

"That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety." [SNIP] That government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the people, nation or community; of all the various modes and forms of government that is best, which is capable of producing the greatest degree of happiness and safety and is most effectually secured against the danger of maladministration;"

In early drafts of the Declaration of Independence Jefferson used the word Property instead of Happiness. They are pretty much the same in Lockean Philosophy. Property included the ownership of one's self and a right to personal well being, which the State cannot infringe because we lack the funds to pay for it.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
No rebuttal was given outside of making my point. Your rebuttal that the "people in question won't die of their condition if it receives medical treatment" is not a rebuttal to lack of health care not causing death. You even have the phrase, "of their condition" attached to the verb "to die." You have yet to show me where lack of health care caused the death. The condition for which they seek health care caused their death. You have even stated it in your very own words.

You didn't say this, then?

quote:

nor will lack of health care kill you

I cited a couple of cases where lack of health care will kill you, and the fact that you were wrong about that seems to have gone right over your pointy little head.

Let's set this straight, right here and now.
How does lack of health care kill you?

In the case of type one diabetes, by undigested sugar causing a physical breakdown which (and here's where you should be paying attention, Watson) can be prevented by regular doses of a synthetic hormone.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Not what I said, but given that you're incapable of arguing with people's points rather than bizarre strawmen, I'm not surprised you can't manage any better than that.

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