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ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 5:29:56 AM

BenevolentM

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I suspect the Supreme Court decision on ObamaCare may help refine our understanding of what mandatory automobile insurance is. It is a tax. In my opinion it was disingenuous to believe that it wasn't. As a tax it is discriminatory. It discriminates against the less fortunate in an especially harsh manner.

For additional background information consult Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation.

Post #: 1

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 5:40:48 AM

BenevolentM

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Clarity is beneficial. When the Supreme Court said that corporations are people I suspect it was a clarification of a long standing trend. Instead of living in denial we can now better understand the direction things have been proceeding in for some time and decide whether we like it.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 2

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 5:49:47 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I suspect the Supreme Court decision on ObamaCare may help refine our understanding of what mandatory automobile insurance is. It is a tax. In my opinion it was disingenuous to believe that it wasn't. As a tax it is discriminatory. It discriminates against the less fortunate in an especially harsh manner.

For additional background information consult Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation.

If giving a tax credit to those who can't afford to insure their own financial security is discrimination, then bring it!

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 3

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:28:21 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If giving a tax credit to those who can't afford to insure their own financial security is discrimination, then bring it!

I agree with you in this respect. If you make enough to pay taxes, why are you being given a tax break? What makes sense to me are vouchers or subsidies. Tax breaks? No. I don't see how tax breaks make sense because it doesn't actually address the problem.

Tax breaks is old thinking which is based on the open loop paradigm. It is the best you can do with respect to that paradigm. For additional background information consult Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 4

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:30:21 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If giving a tax credit to those who can't afford to insure their own financial security is discrimination, then bring it!

I agree with you in this respect. If you make enough to pay taxes, why are you being given a tax break? What makes sense to me are vouchers or subsidies. Tax breaks? No. I don't see how tax breaks make sense because it doesn't actually address the problem.

Tax breaks is old thinking which is based on the open loop paradigm. It is the best you can do with respect to that paradigm. For additional background information consult Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation.

Tax Breaks MAKE YOU PAY FOR THE INSURANCE **FIRST**.

Rather than just handing out cash benefits... Or "vouchers" as some like to call them...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 5

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:32:43 AM

ClassIsInSession

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Joined: 7/26/2010
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Corporations are recognized as people because our law is based on British law and in the days of sailing vessels trading around the world, to offset the risks, corporations were formed to create a veil for liability.

The key difference between auto insurance and health insurance is, if you don't want to pay auto insurance, you just use public transportation. With the health care, the only way to opt out is to die. It's a cradle to grave tax and as such is a direct assault on liberty in its purest form. How long will it be before there is legislation making home security mandatory to make every citizen responsible for doing their part to help Homeland Security? Or when will the FDA say that health risks will be minimized if all Americans eat a particular diet (probably full of processed Monsanto food) and so everyone is required to buy particular grocery items? This sets a dangerous precedent.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 6

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:37:20 AM

BenevolentM

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What is the biggest problem with welfare? It often serves as a disincentive to get off it when you can, but what is the root of the problem? Is it welfare, its essence as the Republicans argue, or is it something else? I believe it is something else.

I believe its simple physics. We need to be using continuous functions to model the problem where at some point the subsidy takes care of 100% of your expenses, for example, when you don't make enough money to pay income tax. Above that you have a partial subsidy, but you are encouraged to earn more because earning more won't be at expense of losing all your benefits. After a certain point the subsidy drops to zero say at 400% poverty since you are earning enough where there is no actual hardship imposed on you if you are unsubsidized.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 7

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:38:17 AM

mnottertail

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What the fuck is this Obamacare horseshit every cretin has been on about?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 8

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:44:41 AM

ClassIsInSession

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Joined: 7/26/2010
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The solution to welfare is very simple. There are plenty of simple tasks that could be performed at a kitchen table, addressing envelopes, mailing government letters, cleaning up streets or parks. All of these things could be implemented much like community service is for a number of hours a month for those receiving welfare benefits. It is the fact that choosing a particular lifestyle guarantees a check with no other commitments that makes it compelling enough for some to want to ride it indefinitely. Requiring community service would be a value exchange, which would also build self esteem and add the incentive to be productive.

I agree to some extent with your reasoning, it's basically saying that rather than being off or on, you gradually remove the crutch rather than making it a sink or swim equation.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 9

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:48:03 AM

BenevolentM

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Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

Corporations are recognized as people because our law is based on British law and in the days of sailing vessels trading around the world, to offset the risks, corporations were formed to create a veil for liability.

The key difference between auto insurance and health insurance is, if you don't want to pay auto insurance, you just use public transportation. With the health care, the only way to opt out is to die. It's a cradle to grave tax and as such is a direct assault on liberty in its purest form. How long will it be before there is legislation making home security mandatory to make every citizen responsible for doing their part to help Homeland Security? Or when will the FDA say that health risks will be minimized if all Americans eat a particular diet (probably full of processed Monsanto food) and so everyone is required to buy particular grocery items? This sets a dangerous precedent.

I grant you that there are differences, but I fail to see how they nullify the point I'm making. That said access to transportation is serious and we are not like the European nations as public transportation is concerned. In the state that I live in public transportation is not something that can be taken seriously.

I agree with you that government is potentially a solution that is worse than the problem. There is no question in my mind that we need sane government. Where we differ is, is a lack of government intervention sane? which is the flip side.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 10

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:49:08 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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So, I mail the government letters, to a person to mail government letters....let me give that one a think.....

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 11

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:51:22 AM

ClassIsInSession

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There are plenty of things that get mailed out. You have welfare recipients mailing out unemployment letters, or tax letters, etc. Since the government is not a profitable company if you ran the benefit programs like a business, you could get a fair exchange. Rather than paying someone a salary to do these things you pay welfare benefits. Simple.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 12

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:57:13 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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uhhhhhhhhhh, so you have mailmen (usps lost what, about 13 bill last year?) delivering mail to welfare patients to lick stamps and envelopes on, pay unemployment benefits to the dislocated mailing center workers, end up with federal, state or county owned empty buildings on the books, train the welfare patients with trainers to sort lick stamp and whatnot the stuff, bundle and bulk the mail...

And where is the miracle block there with the savings in it?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 13

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:58:53 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I agree to some extent with your reasoning, it's basically saying that rather than being off or on, you gradually remove the crutch rather than making it a sink or swim equation.

Yes, that is the substance of what I wrote. The insurance company actuaries are likely well aware of this strange government tendency for it is or it is not since they are very well educated in the field of mathematics. Gravity isn't just on or off. It varies in intensity. In Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation I discussed the need for the relationships to be discontinous, but I was approaching the matter from a different vantage point. Also, what I was trying to convey is difficult to put into words.

Our humanity I argued is an inherent drain on the economy because the economy is here to serve us. It isn't supposed to be the other way around. We are not servants to the economy per se. We participate in the economy so that the economy can be good to us. It is all about us. I feel we often lose sight of this and think that what is good for the economy must necessarily be good for us. For the most part what is good for the economy is good for us, but this is not entirely true.

The direction we have been moving in is that the economy is everything, however, which in my opinion is clearly wrong headed.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 14

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 6:59:19 AM

ClassIsInSession

Posts: 305
Joined: 7/26/2010
Status: offline

I could make the same kind of arguments about the health care plan. I strongly believe it's destined to drive up health care costs. Time will tell. But you have non-physicians making health decisions and directing your care..not the most efficient or logical way of doing things.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 15

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:02:39 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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Who the fuck uses mail anymore? In NYS, unemployment benefit claims are all computerized and shit...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 16

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:14:30 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I could make the same kind of arguments about the health care plan. I strongly believe it's destined to drive up health care costs. Time will tell. But you have non-physicians making health decisions and directing your care..not the most efficient or logical way of doing things.

But that is how we have done it for years, insurance folks have done that since day one, and that aint changing.

Sorry, go back to class.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 17

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:19:47 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

How long will it be before there is legislation making home security mandatory to make every citizen responsible for doing their part to help Homeland Security? Or when will the FDA say that health risks will be minimized if all Americans eat a particular diet (probably full of processed Monsanto food) and so everyone is required to buy particular grocery items?

Yeah, those are right around the corner.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 18

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:21:00 AM

Musicmystery

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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

I strongly believe it's destined to drive up health care costs.

And if you can't trust your unsupported personal beliefs, who CAN you trust???

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)

Post #: 19

RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:24:06 AM

BenevolentM

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Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And if you can't trust your unsupported personal beliefs, who CAN you trust???

You can put your trust in the Great White Spirit.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 20

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