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RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:13:35 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Individual Mandate aside, the ACA is designed to be a free market system of regional exchanges in which Health Insurance Companies will participate. It is still a private Insurance system. In what part of the Law do you find that the US Government will be making decisions about your healthcare? Or are you just being paranoid?

who can say at this point? We dont even know if Obamacare will survive the election!..

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RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:22:27 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		Thinking further. There is something wrong with this penalty-tax conversion. There is some relationship. Burden is a necessary criteria. It is not a sufficient criteria, however. This is where we differ. In other words, burden is not the proportionality constant c^2 in an E = m c^2 type equation.

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RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:22:40 AM   
captive4ever


Posts: 98
Joined: 8/16/2011
Status: offline 		How can something you pay, but not to the government be a tax?

Mandatory auto insurance is a personal public responsibility.





quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

It appears that I've contradicted myself here. Mandatory automobile insurance might not be considered by the government as a tax because the Supreme Court was disingenuous. There is no question in my mind that mandatory automobile insurance is a tax.


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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:24:40 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The solution to welfare is very simple. There are plenty of simple tasks that could be performed at a kitchen table, addressing envelopes, mailing government letters, cleaning up streets or parks. All of these things could be implemented much like community service is for a number of hours a month for those receiving welfare benefits. It is the fact that choosing a particular lifestyle guarantees a check with no other commitments that makes it compelling enough for some to want to ride it indefinitely. Requiring community service would be a value exchange, which would also build self esteem and add the incentive to be productive.

I agree to some extent with your reasoning, it's basically saying that rather than being off or on, you gradually remove the crutch rather than making it a sink or swim equation.


And to a large extent, those jobs are filled by those with disabilities, and those companies are given tax benefits for hiring those with disabilities.

Now, as an employer, do you hire someone who is poor? or someone who is disabled and who will gain you a tax write off?

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:28:43 AM   
ClassIsInSession


Posts: 305
Joined: 7/26/2010
Status: offline 		tj444, you said : As someone that comes from a country that has had a national healthcare system in place for a fairly long time, I disagree with you on that point.. I am not saying that my Canada's healthcare system is perfect, but it works relatively well.. CCanada has not progressed to mandating the use of home security or eating monsanto food or any of the other things you fear.. on the contrary, it is a much freer country than yours.. I can buy my allergy meds and various other meds over the counter!!! here i need to show my id and i am limited in how much i can buy, and big brother gets that info and is watching.. People there dont get thrown in jail for minor offenses and medicinal/recreational pot smokers are left alone... gays can marry, etc, women are in charge of their own healthcare decisions (like birth control and abortion).. etc, etc.. So I disagree that its a slippery slope..

And I would agree, in many ways I like the Canadian model of doing things. I will point out though that you don't have a Dept. of Homeland Security, a Patriot Act, or many of the other things we've already seen here in the states as a major power grab. And, for those who want to peg me squarely as a Republican, yes, much of what I'm complaining about came out under Bush. I'm not picking parties here.

vincentML, you've obviously never grown up in Norfolk, VA like I did, and seen 3-4 generations of people growing up in projects. I've been back "home" many times over the last decade and nothing has changed. The projects for all their free section 8 housing still look littered with trash and graffiti, and no one who isn't african american dare go in there after dark unless they have a death wish. When people get benefits for free, they don't place any value on them. It's a psychological fact. If you doubt it, shower your significant other with endless expressions of adoration, and tons of gifts and see how long it is until they no longer have any respect for you. I take offense to your insults to my intelligence and I'm far more knowledgeable than you estimate.

My biggest gripe with government in general is they pay way too much attention to giving lip service and token efforts in order to stay in power rather than getting any real and significant progress going on.

There were comments about how inefficient the U.S. government is, and as a former contractor, I can tell you that there is definitive proof of that. We would buy supplies for every installation we did, going from ship to ship, and despite there being huge volumes of left over hardware from one job to the next, we were distinctly ordered to box it, store it in a warehouse and never use it. That's just blatant waste.

You can scuba dive in the Chesapeake Bay and find plenty of things that were dumped over the sides of ships to keep the budget from getting reduced year to year too.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:29:05 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

They play games. Is it a tax or a penalty? ... The distinction is artificial.


What is artificial is the direct verses indirect tax distinction. The government has been regulating us up the ass and feels that it has the right to do so because such regulation is not a direct tax. As a practical matter there is no distinction between an indirect or direct tax as far as I know. It is all the same thing.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:29:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Individual Mandate aside, the ACA is designed to be a free market system of regional exchanges in which Health Insurance Companies will participate. It is still a private Insurance system. In what part of the Law do you find that the US Government will be making decisions about your healthcare? Or are you just being paranoid?

who can say at this point? We dont even know if Obamacare will survive the election!..


And yet you advance conspiracies of government making personal healthcare decisions. Drinking the right wing kool aide, methinks.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:33:40 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: captive4ever

How can something you pay, but not to the government be a tax?



Because it is a mandatory payment. The insurance companies are simply a middle man for the government. It also makes the insurance industry a de facto branch of government with the power to make law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: captive4ever

Mandatory auto insurance is a personal public responsibility.


So are taxes.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:34:02 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The solution to welfare is very simple. There are plenty of simple tasks that could be performed at a kitchen table, addressing envelopes, mailing government letters, cleaning up streets or parks. All of these things could be implemented much like community service is for a number of hours a month for those receiving welfare benefits. It is the fact that choosing a particular lifestyle guarantees a check with no other commitments that makes it compelling enough for some to want to ride it indefinitely. Requiring community service would be a value exchange, which would also build self esteem and add the incentive to be productive.

I agree to some extent with your reasoning, it's basically saying that rather than being off or on, you gradually remove the crutch rather than making it a sink or swim equation.


And to a large extent, those jobs are filled by those with disabilities, and those companies are given tax benefits for hiring those with disabilities.

Now, as an employer, do you hire someone who is poor? or someone who is disabled and who will gain you a tax write off?



why couldn't they offer tax breaks to those who hire people on welfare?

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:34:15 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Joined: 3/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: captive4ever

How can something you pay, but not to the government be a tax?

Mandatory auto insurance is a personal public responsibility.


Why is car insurance personal public responsibility and health insurance isn't? Cause you want me to pay for your fat asss when you go get that bypass?


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

It appears that I've contradicted myself here. Mandatory automobile insurance might not be considered by the government as a tax because the Supreme Court was disingenuous. There is no question in my mind that mandatory automobile insurance is a tax.



(in reply to captive4ever)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:35:04 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I am in charge of what happens to me and I dont want the US govt making decisions about my healthcare, period, cuz i know what they decide will not be what is in my best interest, only I can decide that


I have seen this argument before. What has led you to believe that is what the government wants to do?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:39:08 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The solution to welfare is very simple. There are plenty of simple tasks that could be performed at a kitchen table, addressing envelopes, mailing government letters, cleaning up streets or parks. All of these things could be implemented much like community service is for a number of hours a month for those receiving welfare benefits. It is the fact that choosing a particular lifestyle guarantees a check with no other commitments that makes it compelling enough for some to want to ride it indefinitely. Requiring community service would be a value exchange, which would also build self esteem and add the incentive to be productive.

I agree to some extent with your reasoning, it's basically saying that rather than being off or on, you gradually remove the crutch rather than making it a sink or swim equation.


And to a large extent, those jobs are filled by those with disabilities, and those companies are given tax benefits for hiring those with disabilities.

Now, as an employer, do you hire someone who is poor? or someone who is disabled and who will gain you a tax write off?



why couldn't they offer tax breaks to those who hire people on welfare?


Good question... why havent they? I dont begrudge the disabled the ability to work... each state has their own programs.. PA has http://www.worksforme-pa.org/ .. but the offer for welfare recipients are not there.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:44:38 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

vincentML, you've obviously never grown up in Norfolk, VA like I did, and seen 3-4 generations of people growing up in projects. I've been back "home" many times over the last decade and nothing has changed. The projects for all their free section 8 housing still look littered with trash and graffiti, and no one who isn't african american dare go in there after dark unless they have a death wish


When you isolate a class of people by economic status instead of integrating them into the larger community it should be no surprise that role models are absent and resentment increases. Highrise housing projects are an anacronism. The last tower of Cabrini Green in Chicago was recently demolished. The problems you cite are more a result of erronious social theory and planning than a lack of aspirations among the poor, and certainly not indigenous to the color of their skin. I'll bet you can find similar failure amongst whites in public housing in London and Dublin. We need to stop blaming the victims of class stratification and find a workable system toward upward mobility. Sending manufacturing jobs to China has not been helpful.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:51:29 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
And I would agree, in many ways I like the Canadian model of doing things. I will point out though that you don't have a Dept. of Homeland Security, a Patriot Act, or many of the other things we've already seen here in the states as a major power grab. And, for those who want to peg me squarely as a Republican, yes, much of what I'm complaining about came out under Bush. I'm not picking parties here.

Actually, Canada does have its version of Homeland Security (CSIS) and its version of the Patriot Act.. its just that its not a system that has "gone mad" as has the one in the US.. And yes, the societies are quite different which imo is why things are done differently and.. umm.. more sanely in Canada..

So... ya wanna run off to an idylic tropical paradise with me??

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:58:09 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Why couldn't they offer tax breaks to those who hire people on welfare?


Good point.

Why participate in these arbitrary discriminatory practices that only left handed people missing a leg are qualified. These are ad hoc solutions, not real solutions.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:58:10 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi



why couldn't they offer tax breaks to those who hire people on welfare?

they do

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:58:15 AM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
And yet you advance conspiracies of government making personal healthcare decisions. Drinking the right wing kool aide, methinks.

Its not the govt on its own, its Big Pharma, insurance corps & HMOs and their need to make an outrageous profit.. the cost for medical procedures is half the cost in Canada that it is in the US,... that difference is profit those corps are making now and imo it will get much more expensive in the future..

The govt makes healthcare decisions now, like restricting the amount of certain allergy meds i can buy, as just one example..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 10:59:23 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
they do


Let's not get bogged down with immaterial details.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 11:00:26 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		http://www.carinsurance.com/kb/content20009.aspx

quote:

Do all states require car insurance?

No, all states do not require car insurance, but all require financial responsibility to operate a vehicle on the roadway.

Every state requires that you meet financial responsibility requirements through insurance, a bond or some other approved means that show you are able to pay if you cause damages to another person or property in an automobile accident. (See "Got $30,000 and hate car insurers?")




Nope. No one is REQUIRED to PURCHASE car insurance. And even if they were, they are a state-by-state mandate, not a federal one. Therein lies the difference.

< Message edited by searching4mysir -- 7/13/2012 11:02:15 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 11:06:57 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I am in charge of what happens to me and I dont want the US govt making decisions about my healthcare, period, cuz i know what they decide will not be what is in my best interest, only I can decide that


I have seen this argument before. What has led you to believe that is what the government wants to do?

The govt makes healthcare decisions right now that i am opposed to, like restricting the amount of certain allergy meds i can buy, or there was a diy skin tag remover I wanted to buy but found out the US govt doesnt even allow it to be sold here.. both of those are OTC in Canada..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 80
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