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RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:28:01 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

How long will it be before there is legislation making home security mandatory to make every citizen responsible for doing their part to help Homeland Security? Or when will the FDA say that health risks will be minimized if all Americans eat a particular diet (probably full of processed Monsanto food) and so everyone is required to buy particular grocery items?


Yeah, those are right around the corner.




Why be sarcastic? Instead of whining, give us soothing reasons. Why be dogmatic? Calm yourself. There is room for differing opinions.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:28:20 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Better luck with Norman Greenbaum than some invisible sky wizard.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:31:35 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Better luck with Norman Greenbaum than some invisible sky wizard.


My point was that he was being dogmatic and more specifically was committing the fallacy of trifurcation. It is when you claim there are two mutually exclusive possibilities when there are in fact three or more.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:37:56 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Better luck with Norman Greenbaum than some invisible sky wizard.


Since you brought it up mnottertail and in the fine tradition of mnottertail I looked up the song on YouTube.

Spirit In The Sky Norman Greenbaum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZQxH_8raCI

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 7:38:51 AM   
ClassIsInSession


Posts: 305
Joined: 7/26/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you for your temperance Benevolent. Musicmystery has had a shine for me for some time. I think he's itching for a fist fight or something. Must be unreleased testosterone.

I agree with you that what is good for the economy isn't always in alignment with what is good for humanity. There used to be a thing called ethics that existed on both the government and corporate sector and it prevented quite a lot of this intrusion into barbarity to kneel to the numbers. I've often said that free market economics or socialism could both work, but the key ingredient that everyone seems to miss is the ethical behavior that is required to make any system maintain for long periods of time.

A case in point is the italian mob back in the early 20th century. Despite the fact that it was a criminal organization, you would find them supporting charities, churches, schools, all good things in society. And the reason was because they were wise enough to know that to exploit a system, you have to keep it stable. One of our greatest challenges culturally now is that the level of crime and dishonesty is so severe that it's hitting critical mass. There is no balance, and everything has swayed either far right or far left for a decade or more now.

When I was growing up, my family almost always voted for one republican and one democrat, because doing so slowed the changes enough to give time to really think about them before they voted. With the extreme polarization, things have changed so rapidly that unintended consequences are frequently missed.

To answer farglebargle, while the claims are computerized there are still multiple mailings that go out, about the status of your claim, your pin number in the system, registering for work search, work search requirements etc. Most of it is completely redundant and reiterated online, however, for whatever reason they send them out, they certainly do and I suspect it has to do with "legal" notification.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:00:18 AM   
BenevolentM


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Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

There used to be a thing called ethics that existed ...


I called it standards in Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation. I get the idea that government has the potential to be a creativity machine, but I doubt that even creativity machines are not governed by rules/ethics. It could be said that a creativity machine is creative because it is able to figure out what these rules are.

< Message edited by BenevolentM -- 7/13/2012 8:01:13 AM >

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:11:46 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The solution to welfare is very simple. There are plenty of simple tasks that could be performed at a kitchen table, addressing envelopes, mailing government letters, cleaning up streets or parks. All of these things could be implemented much like community service is for a number of hours a month for those receiving welfare benefits. It is the fact that choosing a particular lifestyle guarantees a check with no other commitments that makes it compelling enough for some to want to ride it indefinitely. Requiring community service would be a value exchange, which would also build self esteem and add the incentive to be productive.

I agree to some extent with your reasoning, it's basically saying that rather than being off or on, you gradually remove the crutch rather than making it a sink or swim equation.


It sounds like you want the government to hire more people to do things less efficiently. isn't that socialism?


_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:14:47 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

Thank you for your temperance Benevolent. Musicmystery has had a shine for me for some time. I think he's itching for a fist fight or something. Must be unreleased testosterone.



Ummmmm....with only a couple hundred posts....one can hardly come to that conclusion.....


Projecting.....much?

FR:


In my state.....a knucklehead who feels he can do without car insurance(you know,the "freedom luvers") are subject to a years loss of driving privileges, requires a $300.00 to $1,000.00 fine, a term of community service and more.

Try getting a policy later that isn`t double what it would have been before the conviction.

Another conviction requires a fine of up to $5,000, thirty days of community service, a fourteen-day jail
term and losing your driving privileges for two years.

Someone claiming they won`t need healthcare insurance because they won`t get sick is pretty much like the pin-heads who don`t think they need car insurance.

Couple other points cons tend to gloss over......

The insurance mandate is a republican idea.Look it up.Type in "Heritage Foundation" in along with word "individual mandate".

The other glaring omission......the complainers aren`t the uninsured......

Primarily....the cry-babies are folks WITH health insurance and aren`t affected by the mandate.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/13/2012 8:18:01 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:16:35 AM   
BenevolentM


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Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

unintended consequences


Since class is in session what you are really talking about is known as side effects. Effects come in two varieties, the principle effect which is the intended effect and the side effects. Collectively the principle effect and the side effects are the effects.

When you are goal oriented you will not be especially concerned with the side effects which is precisely how participants in the legislative process reason. They are only concerned with side effects to the extent that their lobbyist friends are concerned. When they are concerned their solutions are ad hoc, a tail that is just pinned on the donkey any ole way.

They are supremely arrogant and believe that the way government reasons and does things is fundamentally correct.

< Message edited by BenevolentM -- 7/13/2012 8:21:14 AM >

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:20:04 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Joined: 3/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I could make the same kind of arguments about the health care plan. I strongly believe it's destined to drive up health care costs. Time will tell. But you have non-physicians making health decisions and directing your care..not the most efficient or logical way of doing things.


You are supposing that physicians actually make health decisions today. Which is not correct. The "person" running your health care plan makes all those decisions for you. Your doctor has little do do with it

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:21:45 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		They believe government works because it is magical.

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:22:56 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

if you don't want to pay auto insurance, you just use public transportation.

You do realize of course that only a tiny percentage of the US is covered by reliable public transportation.

For a vast majority of Americans, Auto insurance is mandatory. There is no reliable public transportation for them (if it exists at all). You're basically spouting a FOX 'talking point' here which oversimplifies things so that even their audience can comprehend it. Unfortunately, it oversimplifies things to the point of utter falsehood.
Expand public transportation? Well, who's gonna pay for that? Tax and spend Republicans maybe?

The argument is one of those that looks pretty but if you think about it, it doesn't hold water.


Forcing people to carry insurance means that I don't have to pay more money out of my own pocket to subsidize someone elses bad choices and entitlement based lifestyle. The last time I looked, that wasn't just a conservative plank, it was part of their very foundation.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:38:28 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The key difference between auto insurance and health insurance is, if you don't want to pay auto insurance, you just use public transportation. With the health care, the only way to opt out is to die. It's a cradle to grave tax and as such is a direct assault on liberty in its purest form. How long will it be before there is legislation making home security mandatory to make every citizen responsible for doing their part to help Homeland Security? Or when will the FDA say that health risks will be minimized if all Americans eat a particular diet (probably full of processed Monsanto food) and so everyone is required to buy particular grocery items? This sets a dangerous precedent.

As someone that comes from a country that has had a national healthcare system in place for a fairly long time, I disagree with you on that point.. I am not saying that my Canada's healthcare system is perfect, but it works relatively well.. Canada has not progressed to mandating the use of home security or eating monsanto food or any of the other things you fear.. on the contrary, it is a much freer country than yours.. I can buy my allergy meds and various other meds over the counter!!! here i need to show my id and i am limited in how much i can buy, and big brother gets that info and is watching.. People there dont get thrown in jail for minor offenses and medicinal/recreational pot smokers are left alone... gays can marry, etc, women are in charge of their own healthcare decisions (like birth control and abortion).. etc, etc.. So I disagree that its a slippery slope..

But of course the devil is in the details and since you are starting your national healthcare with the problem of grossly overcharging for healthcare in the first place, it can only get worse and more expensive, imo.. its gonna be interesting to see just how fucked up your govt, Big Pharma & HMOs can make it..

For anyone interested.. here is Peter Schiff's view of Obamacare

< Message edited by tj444 -- 7/13/2012 8:44:52 AM >

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:40:38 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

You are supposing that physicians actually make health decisions today. Which is not correct. The "person" running your health care plan makes all those decisions for you. Your doctor has little do do with it


I concede that what DomYngBlk said is in large part true. I recall that ClassIsInSession wrote that he has mostly opted out of the system which suggests that he may not be entirely hip concerning how the system works, but knows enough to know that it is not altogether agreeable to him.

It used to be that the doctor couldn't do much for you. So in a sense it didn't really matter if you could afford health care or not. At one time health care was a luxury item. Today, there is a great deal they can do for you, however. LookieNoNookie in Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation expressed the opinion that the reforms were going to cost us, but it will be worth it.

Part of the cost is that the doctor has to prove his or her case with the insurance company. The doctor's word is insufficient which is what I suspect ClassIsInSession may be getting at. I don't think doctors are permitted to spend enough time with you for example and that is contributing to the problem. They make too many mistakes. As such their may be a role for alternative medicine despite how loathsome that may seem to some. It is another person spending the time to get to the bottom of things with you.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:42:03 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Who is Peter Schiff?

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:47:08 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

You are supposing that physicians actually make health decisions today. Which is not correct. The "person" running your health care plan makes all those decisions for you. Your doctor has little do do with it


I concede that what DomYngBlk said is in large part true. I recall that ClassIsInSession wrote that he has mostly opted out of the system which suggests that he may not be entirely hip concerning how the system works, but knows enough to know that it is not altogether agreeable to him.

It used to be that the doctor couldn't do much for you. So in a sense it didn't really matter if you could afford health care or not. At one time health care was a luxury item. Today, there is a great deal they can do for you, however. LookieNoNookie in Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation expressed the opinion that the reforms were going to cost us, but it will be worth it.

Part of the cost is that the doctor has to prove his or her case with the insurance company. The doctor's word is insufficient which is what I suspect ClassIsInSession may be getting at. I don't think doctors are permitted to spend enough time with you for example and that is contributing to the problem. They make too many mistakes. As such their may be a role for alternative medicine despite how loathsome that may seem to some. It is another person spending the time to get to the bottom of things with you.


Not sure how you opt out of healthcare besides hoping you don't get sick...but oh well. Thank you but I will take my chances with my Government and people making those decisions rather than someone that has a fiscal line drawn in the sand and it will not be changed.

A doctor today can't and won't spend any time with you. They need some many inventory turns per day to make the kind of money that they want. If we went to a one payer system where they drew a salary from the Gov't all that nonsense would stop.

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:53:40 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		I watched some of the Peter Schiff's view of Obamacare video that was provided by tj444. As I pointed out in Affordable Care Act and Its Implementation the Supreme Court decision is not an interpolation of existing law, but an extrapolation of existing law. The Supreme Court has held the position for a few decades now that it has the right to extrapolate. As I pointed out an extrapolation is controversial because it is not backwardly compatible whereas an interpolation is. I disagree with the court when it said that it was being conservative. This was an exceedingly liberal decision. The Supreme Court in this decision exercised its right to make law. Whether this is a good or bad thing of course is another matter.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:58:06 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The key difference between auto insurance and health insurance is, if you don't want to pay auto insurance, you just use public transportation. With the health care, the only way to opt out is to die. It's a cradle to grave tax and as such is a direct assault on liberty in its purest form. How long will it be before there is legislation making home security mandatory to make every citizen responsible for doing their part to help Homeland Security? Or when will the FDA say that health risks will be minimized if all Americans eat a particular diet (probably full of processed Monsanto food) and so everyone is required to buy particular grocery items? This sets a dangerous precedent.

As someone that comes from a country that has had a national healthcare system in place for a fairly long time, I disagree with you on that point.. I am not saying that my Canada's healthcare system is perfect, but it works relatively well.. Canada has not progressed to mandating the use of home security or eating monsanto food or any of the other things you fear.. on the contrary, it is a much freer country than yours.. I can buy my allergy meds and various other meds over the counter!!! here i need to show my id and i am limited in how much i can buy, and big brother gets that info and is watching.. People there dont get thrown in jail for minor offenses and medicinal/recreational pot smokers are left alone... gays can marry, etc, women are in charge of their own healthcare decisions (like birth control and abortion).. etc, etc.. So I disagree that its a slippery slope..

But of course the devil is in the details and since you are starting your national healthcare with the problem of grossly overcharging for healthcare in the first place, it can only get worse and more expensive, imo.. its gonna be interesting to see just how fucked up your govt, Big Pharma & HMOs can make it..

For anyone interested.. here is Peter Schiff's view of Obamacare


There are many people who don't consider birth control and abortion "healthcare" because fertility and pregnancy are not diseases.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 8:59:16 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Who is Peter Schiff?

He's my HERO!!! (well,.. one of them)

He is a financial and investment commentator, a businessman and (gasp) a Republican.. he is against various govt policies and believes in more of a free market system.. I like listening to him more on his economic views than his political ones...



_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: ObamaCare and Mandatory Automobile Insurance - 7/13/2012 9:01:29 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The key difference between auto insurance and health insurance is, if you don't want to pay auto insurance, you just use public transportation. With the health care, the only way to opt out is to die. It's a cradle to grave tax and as such is a direct assault on liberty in its purest form. How long will it be before there is legislation making home security mandatory to make every citizen responsible for doing their part to help Homeland Security? Or when will the FDA say that health risks will be minimized if all Americans eat a particular diet (probably full of processed Monsanto food) and so everyone is required to buy particular grocery items? This sets a dangerous precedent.

As someone that comes from a country that has had a national healthcare system in place for a fairly long time, I disagree with you on that point.. I am not saying that my Canada's healthcare system is perfect, but it works relatively well.. Canada has not progressed to mandating the use of home security or eating monsanto food or any of the other things you fear.. on the contrary, it is a much freer country than yours.. I can buy my allergy meds and various other meds over the counter!!! here i need to show my id and i am limited in how much i can buy, and big brother gets that info and is watching.. People there dont get thrown in jail for minor offenses and medicinal/recreational pot smokers are left alone... gays can marry, etc, women are in charge of their own healthcare decisions (like birth control and abortion).. etc, etc.. So I disagree that its a slippery slope..

But of course the devil is in the details and since you are starting your national healthcare with the problem of grossly overcharging for healthcare in the first place, it can only get worse and more expensive, imo.. its gonna be interesting to see just how fucked up your govt, Big Pharma & HMOs can make it..

For anyone interested.. here is Peter Schiff's view of Obamacare


There are many people who don't consider birth control and abortion "healthcare" because fertility and pregnancy are not diseases.



Then preventive care and screenings should go too...since they aren't treating a "disease". Right?

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 40
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