RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive and an Slave ?

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RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/18/2012 8:27:59 PM

peppermint

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deeplove

I'd really appreciate your opinion regarding this matter because a lot of people are confuse about this important thing ...

Pronunciation

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(in reply to deeplove)

Post #: 61

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/18/2012 9:00:33 PM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I never hear anyone who is vanilla asking the difference between a being a girlfriend or friend with benefit or a wife.

Really? I've had to endure dozens of conversations discussing the difference between being a girlfriend or friend with benefits!

Not much confusion about the "wife" bit mind you.

Well that is sad; I definitely know where I stand on the above. And yes, a wife is pretty much definitive!

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 62

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/18/2012 9:01:38 PM

CRYPTICLXVI

Posts: 3907
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I think the question is only important to the people involved. Reading through this thread... it is obvious there is not right answer.
Just as what is a "dominant"???

I suppose when I first started seeking, it was an important question but over the years it has lost it's meaning. Now, I am more concerned with my relationships, how do they work, do they work? Hell, when the last one went to shit, I heard all the time that I was not a "true dominant" as if that was supposed to be hurtful. I never replied in kind, because it was obvious that we were not a proper fit.
Had nothing to do with BDSM dynamics... but rather human interaction and us.

The person I am currently interested in refuses to define herself as submissive... though her actions definitely fit my own definition. So, in my case, who cares? It is words... what works, what does not work?

(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 63

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/18/2012 9:08:34 PM

Dunamis2009

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Joined: 7/9/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subpnw
i have always considered the term "slave" to be in the fantasy realm as it relates to the members of Collarme. Since slavery is illegal, the only legal option is to be a submissive. True slavery would have no limits and although one could agree to a no limits arrangement, that fact that one did agree just makes it a higher level of submission. IMHO true slavery is involuntary, and although it can make for some exciting erotic fantasies, in reality would be a less than desirable existence to say the least.

Well, is legality really important in this context? I mean, it's illegal to drive more than the speed limit- does that stop the multitudes of people who speed?

I strongly disagree with the "Choice makes him/her a sub" mentality. We always have a choice, just sometimes those choices lead to really bad consequences (such as death). If there's a line, you should define it; be prepared that a lot of relationships that even you think are slavery will not be slavery on your own terms, just as a lot of relationships you think are not slavery will be.

Masters *can* choose to treat their slaves responsibly. (Or, are you going to argue that Masters aren't *allowed* to do so?) In fact, let's assume a Master can treat a slave however he wants. Can't you imagine a Master who treats his slave, and expects to be treated, exactly the same as any other "relationship" out there? If so, then can't a slave in such a M/s relationship have a desirable existence?

I'm getting the vibe from you that slavery not only has to be involuntary, but also unwanted. I'm just going to leave this here for your own perusal:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36020/36020-h/36020-h.html#clara-davis

EDIT: Hrm. Collarchat filters out part of the URL I was posting. Edited to try a different one.

< Message edited by Dunamis2009 -- 7/18/2012 9:12:53 PM >

(in reply to subpnw)

Post #: 64

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/18/2012 9:12:10 PM

BurntKitty

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From: Here To Eternity.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

quote:

ORIGINAL: deeplove

I'd really appreciate your opinion regarding this matter because a lot of people are confuse about this important thing ...

Pronunciation

I was going to say submissive is an adjective and slave is a noun.

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(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 65

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/18/2012 9:24:10 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

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LOL the difference is whatever you want to make of it.

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(in reply to deeplove)

Post #: 66

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/19/2012 8:05:07 AM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deeplove

I'd really appreciate your opinion regarding this matter because a lot of people are confuse about this important thing ...

To nobody in particular..

You know, if people were focussing on being themselves and sharing that with others, openly, honestly, and if they took the time to get to know people for who they really are, and took them at their word, this really wouldn't be an issue.

But no, because we have a bunch of people who cannot even think outside the box, let alone live for a minute out of it. I'm writing here of course who think that being kinky is an elevated form of self over vanilla, about which they gripe and carp and whine, that 'they cannot be themselves', that 'they cannot be open about things' yadda yadda yadda because it doesn't fit in with the mainstream, that they have to conform...

And then the first thing they do is they look for a standard, a stereotype, a pattern, a model, to which they can conform.

Thing is, you can compare two things which have generic characteristics or features, and see if they match, or compare and contrast..

But we're talking here about individual people, with individual preferences, having individual relationships.

I mean what is this? Something like a game of chess? You know? With all the pieces clearly defined, together with the rules? The bishops move diagonally, pawns move forward, rooks forward, backwards or sideways..

BDSM is not a game, nor is it a role play. It's a subculture, one of different people doing different things with different people in different relationships. There are no standards, no rules, and if you perhaps invested a little time in getting away from the computer and going to a munch, or an event you might actually discover a bunch of people who are highly individual and who are being themselves with others who are being themselves.

If the difference between a submissive and slave is so important to you then maybe BDSM isn't for you after all. Perhaps something like an amateur dramatics society which puts on Shakespeare or musicals might suit you better.

Just sayin'

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Post #: 67

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/19/2012 9:23:58 AM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
If the difference between a submissive and slave is so important to you then maybe BDSM isn't for you after all.

You know, out in the real world what I find is that the living rooms I like hanging in are those where there is a committed, honorable couple who are deeply in love. It's never once occurred to me to think that I'd like hanging with someone because they were "M/s" or "D/s" or whatever. I'm more interested in "are they good people giving off good vibes". That's who I like to be around. It's also who I respect.

I also tend to think that what lines there might be between sub and slave become very, very blurred when you are, in fact, talking about a couple as I described. My own assessment is that's because over time such couples being a couple rather than two individuals so all the concepts which rely on a two party system get... well... a little weird. Can you really have a master and a slave when there's only one "self"? Does a borg drone "obey" the "command" of the borg queen?

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to stellauk)

Post #: 68

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/19/2012 9:29:17 AM

GreedyTop

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*loves STella*

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Post #: 69

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/19/2012 8:25:12 PM

xssve

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For he most part it's a self definition, a legal definition is very different - thus there are no real hard fast external markers to determine the difference between slave and submissive, with BDSM paraxis, they're both submissive, and to what degree is largely matter of personality, and while certainly individuals and groups of individuals may have very clear cut definitions of their own, ultimately, short of a legal definition, it's a subjective definiton, period - end of discussion.

As if, lol, at least until next week.

I would have to say to identify as a slave however, indicates more of a desire to submerge the ego entirely, to become an extension of another's will, whereas identifying as a submissive indicates some desire to retain a more of an independent ego identity. It might be loosely compared to the difference between attending church, uh, religiously, or becoming a nun.

But, that's again, a generalization, there is a bit of a frisson of romance about the notion of slavery that women find attractive, so it might just be part of the fantasy, conversely, a submissive masochist might seem more like a slave than a slave, there just is no way to objectively define it.

Now it may be that the "real" slaves feel they've gone so far they simply have no other options, and that's probably as close to a legal definition as it gets without crossing the line - then again, cat lady is an option, just not an attractive one maybe, I dunno.

I guess you could be a slave to your own perverted desires, if so, CM me, be glad to help you out with that.

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Post #: 70

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/19/2012 8:29:09 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

It might be loosely compared to the difference between attending church, uh, religiously, or becoming a nun.

I absolutely love that analogy, mostly because I am a slave to Master and I have told him on numerous times that if he had not found me when he did, I would have become a nun after my daughter left home and he knew I was serious.

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Post #: 71

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/20/2012 6:39:57 AM

xssve

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Well there is an element of self denial, even asceticism in sexual submission, which is a very common religious theme - you could think of yourself as sort of a swami, a pole sitter maybe.

Martyr complexes are also not out of the question, there is a whole undercurrent of that in Christianity, and it's certainly more sociable than whining about it - in gnosticism, asceticism and debauchery are both considered forms of self denial, two sides of the same coin, to paraphrase Jung, and barring debilitating physical injury and/or std's from indiscriminate promiscuity, debauchery is probably healthier, all other things being equal.

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Post #: 72

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/20/2012 6:53:00 AM

xssve

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From the dominant perspective, as is often expressed around here, a Top is like a 50/50 thing, give and take wise, i.e., the Top has care about and be responsive to the Bottom's feelings, the Dominant has care about be responsive to the Sub's feelings - sometimes (according to some mutually agreed upon formulae), while in a Master/Slave dynamic the Slaves feelings are ostensibly irrelevant.

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Post #: 73

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 7/20/2012 6:55:20 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Well there is an element of self denial, even asceticism in sexual submission, which is a very common religious theme - you could think of yourself as sort of a swami, a pole sitter maybe.

Martyr complexes are also not out of the question, there is a whole undercurrent of that in Christianity, and it's certainly more sociable than whining about it - in gnosticism, asceticism and debauchery are both considered forms of self denial, two sides of the same coin, to paraphrase Jung, and barring debilitating physical injury and/or std's from indiscriminate promiscuity, debauchery is probably healthier, all other things being equal.

I agree with you on all of these. I've studied religion since before I can even remember and it's one of my favorite things to read, see, watch, etc....and what you said is probably some of the big reasons why I'm drawn to religion...and M/s.

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Post #: 74

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 8/13/2012 7:06:53 AM

SlaveSubtoserve

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interesting points re religion and M/s .

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 75

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 8/13/2012 9:59:02 PM

Karmastic

Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deeplove

what is for you the diferent between a Submissive and an Slave

I'd really appreciate your opinion regarding this matter because a lot of people are confuse about this important thing ...

the difference? about 50 bucks :)

edit: okay okay, serious answer...seriously, not much. and that's because there's so much variation in how people identify and define themselves. i don't have experience with anyone who specifically called themselves a slave (except in jest), but my limited understanding is that in general, slaves expect to go much further limit-wise.

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 8/13/2012 10:02:42 PM >

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Post #: 76

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 8/13/2012 10:25:34 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
okay okay, serious answer...seriously, not much. and that's because there's so much variation in how people identify and define themselves. i don't have experience with anyone who specifically called themselves a slave (except in jest), but my limited understanding is that in general, slaves expect to go much further limit-wise.

*chuckles* Spot on. That is, in fact, what people think. I'm often amused by it though. People talk as if "limits" were some sort of single axis metric you could assign a number to and then decide if A > B. In real life it's more like one of those pin sculptures that you can press your face against and see it come out the other side. There's a zillion different pins. Each one goes in more or less. Each one has more or less pressure applied to it. Each one has more or less internal resistance.

In real life each dominant has different things he cares about. Each submissive has different internal resistances to things. Each couple is going to get up to whatever hijinks they do. I have no freakin clue how I'd measure it in anything other than super-obvious glaring differences and come up with anything useful. I mean sure. If there's some sub who says, "I'll only give you oral sex on mondays and wednesdays and etc etc" then I'm good with saying "not all that submissive. But in real couples that are actually working on a real relationship with some legs to it I've never seen anything like that.

That's why I've given up totally and gone to a more sensible thing. Worrying about whether it's working or not. About the only thing I really care about now is I dislike hanging around with allegedly kinky people who flip when I give Carol some command they don't approve of. Open-minded is good enough for me.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Karmastic)

Post #: 77

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 8/13/2012 10:33:58 PM

Karmastic

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quote:

About the only thing I really care about now is I dislike hanging around with allegedly kinky people who flip when I give Carol some command they don't approve of.

not at all surprising considering what i've experienced just on this board (lack of tolerance or apparent superiority for different POVs and WIITWD). i've never seen that IRL, and can't imagine some of these "people" acting that way IRL, and the reaction they would get.

and speaking for myself, my own mea culpa is that i'm still learning to accept a lot of things that just seem off to me. because if it ultimately makes someone happy, then who the fuck am i to pass judgement. this goes not only for BDSM, but for a lot of things.

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 8/13/2012 10:35:51 PM >

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If my experience level makes you feel superior, that is your problem, not mine.

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Post #: 78

RE: what is for you the diferent between a Submissive a... - 8/13/2012 11:11:53 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
not at all surprising considering what i've experienced just on this board (lack of tolerance or apparent superiority for different POVs and WIITWD). i've never seen that IRL, and can't imagine some of these "people" acting that way IRL, and the reaction they would get.

and speaking for myself, my own mea culpa is that i'm still learning to accept a lot of things that just seem off to me. because if it ultimately makes someone happy, then who the fuck am i to pass judgement. this goes not only for BDSM, but for a lot of things.

Well, in real life you don't get the strident calls for pitchforks and torches. But it's kind of annoying to be just chilling with someone who says there a TPE couple in their living room or something and you give some command and the eyebrows go up and the eyes get big.

and by the way, I totally sympathize on the mea culpa. I'm none too thrilled with at least the first 6 months of my posting here. To say I had a LOT to learn about the actual breadth of human sexuality would be nowhere near the truth *laughs*. If you want a laugh at my expense I'm sure you can search the oldest posts of "Leadership527"

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Karmastic)

Post #: 79

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