RE: two worlds of trust (Full Version)

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incognitobynight -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 1:59:22 AM)

Counseling has been attempted.  His "issues" have a very poor prognosis.  My husband has a mild interest in BDSM, (he likes to look a pictures of women in fetish wear and women in fetish wear in bondage) but still cannot bring himself to engage in any physical intimacy, much less talk about it. 

I was trying to point out, that sometimes things are not so black and white.  I suspect the number of "cheaters" out there that are glad that they are cheating, and wouldn't have it any other way, are few and far between.  A day doesn't go by that I don't yearn for what I can't have, and then beat myself up for wanting it in the first place.  I don't want to hurt anybody, GOD, I don't want to hurt anybody.  But I don't want to die never again experiencing a mans arms around me, never looking into the eyes of a man who feels for me what I feel for him, and knowing that connection has been made. 



incognitobynight -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:15:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NINASHARP

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitobynight

So far I am not a cheater, but I am contemplating.  I have been with my husband for nearly 10 years.  We have never had an intimate physical relationship. Not one night!  I have told him that if he could not show me some kind of affection (other than to tell me that he loves me), that I should be allowed to find  and fulfill that need in me somewhere else. I have tried to leave him.  He will not allow me to find it somewhere else (and goes to extreme lengths to make sure I don't), but has pleaded with me not to leave him.  We do have a good life together otherwise.  People say, "he will be better off knowing the truth.  Better off alone".  Bull shit!  He can do nothing to change who he is (I won't go into details, but he can't), and I don't want to spend the rest of my life without physical intimacy.  It would be best for ME to leave him....I know this.  But is it best for him?  Who are you kidding?  He will lose everything ELSE that we have built together.  He will lose the only family he has.  He will lose the woman who has for the last 10 years SHOWERED him with gifts and attention and who has focused everything on HIM.  If I pull all that out from under him now (and I confess, I am thinking of it), how is that better for HIM???  You think this frees him to go find a woman who can't stand to be touched?  Get real!.  Kitten, you know who I am.  Yeah, in a perfect world, I wish I could have a totally open and honest relationship with someone who fulfills my needs, but we don't live in a perfect world.  We are all just doing the best that we can.  I'm trying not to destroy my husband, if he finds out...he will be hurt.  But I'M HURTING NOW!


Sorry you are hurting. Contemplating cheating and doing it are two different things. Anyone in your situation would have given up by now. I am surprised that you held out this long, really and the fact that you are still holding on with such dissatisfaction, speaks volumes about your character. I think if you did go outside the marriage now, you would just feel guilty and justify somehow being responsible for the level of intimacy you aren't receiving in your marriage. Nina.........no doubt you are right.  In my "contemplating" I have been preparing myself for that as well.  At least I now know the psychiatric reason why my husband is incapable of intimacy and I hope that knowledge arms me somewhat  against the guilt I know will come if I cheat. 

You deserve to be happy and I don't think you should be held hostage to your husbands discontent.  It most likely is not what you had in mind when you agreed to marry him. I know there are two sides to the story, but why would you remain in a situation and worry about his happiness when he doesn't seem to understand that you are so unhappy after expressing it? I remain for one reason and one reason only.  Even though I am contemplating cheating and even trying to justify and rationalize why I feel I deserve to, I don't want to HURT him.  If I cheat, he MAY find out.  If I leave, he WILL suffer and most likely will be alone for the rest of his life.  I don't really want that for him.  I do not hate him.  I care for him very much.   If you are the world to him then he'd be better to show it rather then discount your needs as his wife. I really do wish you the best of luck  Thanks Nina.  I think if he could, he would.  Thats one of the things that makes this so hard.  The one thing he could do, that he cannot bring himself to allow, is to "permit" me to take a lover.  I have told myself for nearly 10 years that I am not an animal, that it's mind over matter and I can overcome these "needs".  I am of the highest evolved species on the planet, for God's sakes.  But, it ain't as easy as you might think.  There are times that the pain of loneliness is suffocating.  "Loneliness?"  you ask.  "But he is right there, by your side, CONSTANTLY....how can you be lonely?"  Kitten knows why it is lonely, and so do the other cheaters that seek that connection outside the boundaries of their marriages.  My husband is a decent man, he has a big ol mushy heart of a child.  For 10 years I have put him before me in every instance.  I just hope that if I pursue this, he doesn't find out.  It will not be good for either of us, I know.  Again, I am just trying to do the best that I can.  I don't have all the answers.  Nobody does.   

Nina



bandit25 -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:33:22 AM)

LOL...you're right.  I keep going back and trying to pick up where the hell this is going! 



darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:36:42 AM)

Well, I see a slightly different version on what Zen is saying albeit similar - maybe I just see a different point of view.  And I do understand what you are saying - and yes you place a post out on a public forum - you get responses you won't always like or agree with.  But you not necessarily asking for them.  Some people post just to be heard.  Some people post because they want to connect with others on a similar plain as them.
 
I agree it isn't a religious issue.  But it is one of personal morality.  And each person deals with that on their own personal level - so what people percieve or say here - is irrelevant.  That people think its wrong, or lying - doesn't matter.
People seem to think messageboards change the world.  That they can sway each others minds.  They don't.
You just get your five minutes of fame - and then you move on.
You can offer advice, push your pov, end of the day, tt is all on the personal responsibility of the person reading.
 
Sure people are not going to all sit down and hold hands and sing kumbayah, and make those you don't agree with or think are wrong or immoral or dishonest pat you on the back and say - 'well done, its ok ' - But then again - is it to be expected for everyone to rush in and hit people around the head with the blunt instrument of 'truth'?  When did beating anyone into submission become less abusive than cheating?
 
Peace and Rapture



meatcleaver -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 3:12:44 AM)

The thing is about living two lives and while I wouldn't judge anyone because I don't have all the info and its not my place anyway, it is fair does for the other partner to retaliate.

Years ago I had a neighbour whose wife was having an affair and apparently he confronted her and she denied it so he let things go. Some months later he persuaded his wife they ought to buy a new bigger house to which she agreed. When their old house was sold he refused to sign the papers for the new house they were going to buy. By the time his wife had figured out what was going on he had secreted away 50% of the money. She couldn't afford to buy a house herself so she had to get rented accomodation on social security or get a job and let him have custody of the children. It seems he had knew about her infidelity for quite a long time and planned his escape rather than get angry.

Again I don't judge, it takes two to tango. All is fair in love and war.



agirl -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 3:20:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I wouldn't condemn a person for keeping their marriage intact and having *another life* also.

I wouldn't care to judge someone on the whys and wherefores of their choices. Relationships are SO complicated and the reasons for people being unhappy/unfaithful in them, are too. It's too easy to say *come clean*. It iSN'T always the *good, kind and noble* thing to do. It's a personal moral dilemma.

I certainly don't see that my personal moral code should be applied to anyone other than me.

When I stop being an imperfect person and always make the correct choices and decisons for all concerned and for myself, maybe I'll be in a position to judge other people.

agirl




Too many times in life, people want to say "Live and let live" and let every one go their own way.  That is fine, as long as their way does not run roughshod over mine.  Your right to swing your arm ends at the tip of my nose.
As for being judgmental...people make judgments every day.  And no...none of us are perfect.  That does not mean that we don't have certain standards and apply them to others in certain aspects of life...murder, child abuse, lying to someone you've promised not to lie to, etc.  Otherwise, we'd all sit around and sing Kum-Bye-Ya as all these things happen around us and ignore the hurts of others.  Telling someone that they have to face up to their personal responsibility may come across as judgmental but I see it as telling someone that they cannot justify their behavior...at least to the person who is commenting on the other person's behavior.


Speaking of the OP only......I don't think that I hold any right to pass judgement on someone else's dilemma/choices. I'm not privy to the internal machinations of their relationship. It doesn't affect me, no-one is swinging their arm near the tip of MY nose.......therefore I withold judgement.

I have my own moral compass and use it in MY life but it's mine and useful for ME in MY life, in MY life circumstances and I use it to guide MY behaviour.

While I HOPE that I'll behave well in situations that may occur in my life and while I may STRIVE to...I have no REAL certainty that I will....therefore I withhold judgement.

That is very different to not making judgements at all, ever, about anything.

Regards, agirl








GateKeeprsJewel -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 4:30:43 AM)

I guess I'm one of those that say "if she'll lie to one, sooner or later she'll lie to the other".While I believe it's possible to be married to one and have another as a dom/sub, I think it's something that needs to be out in the open, not done behind backs. Both of these types of relationships are sacred and to hide things just causes bumps in the road. Even though you may open completely to the dom there's always going to be in the back of his mind ."is she being honest with ME?" So, regardless of your intentions , there will probably always be doubt.IE: actions speak louder than words.
I think it's great when a spouse gives you approval to seek out things that they can't give you, such as masochistic needs but I'm yet to understand why a person unhappy in a marriage would choose to stay. Marriage takes a lot of work,as does a lifestyle relationship. My energies need to be focused on one or the other..not both.Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I tend to give everything to one.Devotion, in my world, can't be shared with more than one mate.If I was unable to make a vanilla mate into a D/s relationship and that was what I needed, I would end the 'nilla relationship. And yes, I speak from experience.
So there's my two cents..for what it's worth.



feastie -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 4:38:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitobynight

Counseling has been attempted.  His "issues" have a very poor prognosis.  My husband has a mild interest in BDSM, (he likes to look a pictures of women in fetish wear and women in fetish wear in bondage) but still cannot bring himself to engage in any physical intimacy, much less talk about it. 

I was trying to point out, that sometimes things are not so black and white.  I suspect the number of "cheaters" out there that are glad that they are cheating, and wouldn't have it any other way, are few and far between.  A day doesn't go by that I don't yearn for what I can't have, and then beat myself up for wanting it in the first place.  I don't want to hurt anybody, GOD, I don't want to hurt anybody.  But I don't want to die never again experiencing a mans arms around me, never looking into the eyes of a man who feels for me what I feel for him, and knowing that connection has been made. 


You have a very difficult decision to make. You have my kind thoughts through your struggle.



CreativeDominant -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 7:13:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

What Zen is saying, Dark, is to live and let live.  Which is what I generally do.  I don't go barging into the homes of others and telling them that their lying and cheating is wrong and hurtful.  I do happen to know of a woman who has engaged in several affairs, one of which was with her husband's best friend.  I never said a word in judgment to her and I never told her husband.  However, she never asked my opinion. 

When posting on a forum such as this, the thoughts of others is exactly what one is asking for.  One doesn't post with the expectation that no one will reply, in any fashion.  Whatever statement one puts out, it is never a blanket statement, simply because that power is not ours.  So, you put your money down and you take what comes.

I did not post anything out of a religious belief or out of hatred.  I posted from personal experience.  I don't think anyone will say that dishonesty of this magnitude is okay, no matter their religious affiliation.  This is not a religious matter, but a human one.  I mentioned previously that the reasons for my own affair were not important.  They aren't.  The reasons for kitten's are not important.  What is important is that she's attempting to tell everyone how honest she is, when she's not.  What's important is that in order to have this affair, she's lying to everyone in her family.  Her husband, her children (if she has any), her parents, his parents...friends, clergy, if she's religious.  It doesn't end at your own front door.  It's a secret you hide from everyone you know.

I don't think a post offering her platitudes is any more helpful than one that doesn't.  One that tells her whatever she's doing is okay, honey, is one that is enabling her to continue.  One that just might be a kick in the pants may be of more value than anything else.  There is a time to wake up and smell the coffee.  Sure, there have been some posts that have been wholly outrageous and self-righteous.  I never said those were okay either.  It is something that she needs to work out for herself, yes.  The words of others just might help her in that.  It truly is from compassion that I have posted, not judgment.  How can I judge when I've done the same thing myself?  Compassion doesn't necessarily mean taking someone by the hand, patting them and telling them everything is ok.  A lot of times, it hurts before it feels better.


Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!  I identify with the OP only in the fact that I cheated and lied to my partner and others and the justification at the time.  My viewpoint on what I did then is that I was an ass, a dominant incapable of being honest and open with those I professed to love, shouldering the responsibility of the fidelity I had promised, and dealing with the issues going on and finishing them/fixing them before moving on.

Won't do that anymore...and don't see any justification for someone else doing it, not as the situation is described.  Is that judgmental?  Maybe.  Does it come from hard-won, bitter experience?  Yeah. 



Bearlee -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 1:44:06 PM)

FastReply:

Regarding ‘keeping the marriage intact’; how can keeping a partner in the dark with none of the facts concerning the reality of the situation or the ability to make choices based on those fact…be an ‘intact’ marriage???????

And…what does such a home-life teach kids?  Oh sure…there’s love there; right.  But…it was just stated one partner isn’t meeting the other’s needs and secrets abound; WHAT does that teach kids about living in partnership?????  (And, yes, of course they know.)

I can’t help but wonder what the OP would think if the situation were reversed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
...
Quite a few people on here a successfully living in open or poly relationships, so you might find it trite, but they are putting these concepts to use everyday in their lives. 

  But perhaps the reason it IS successful is because you're not living lives of lies!  Polyamory and other Open Relationships are based on truth and trust…just like other partnerships.  
How can there be communication or trust when one is withholding, lying, cheating and making decisions for the other person to justify their actions as ‘keeping the relationship intact’?????
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
The point I was trying to make is that while the majority of the people here are quick to see a black or white case of cheating, no one bothered to see the shades of grey.  No one looked outside their own set of values and morals before making a judgement.  No one even checked where in the list she was ...  no one considered that given the degrees that we may draw the line at different places.  

Oh yeah, and I know a woman who feels oral and anal sex with someone other than her husband isn’t really cheating because the vagina is a sacred place and as long as she doesn’t include THAT;  she’s not really cheating!   …Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… shades of grey!



Bearlee -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 1:48:27 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BrattyBottomRN

...yeah, I cheat... no I'm not a monster.  I cheat to accomplish something.  Yeah that sucks for my husband and yeah it's a horrible thing to do.  But the alternative is giving my child a divorced household because mom needs kink. 

Uh huh…rather than giving your child a loving, honest, trustworthy home where trust, principals and integrity are taught…?
 
quote:

  It seems to be split here, there are a lot of people who think when we "cheaters" get our hearts broken (like silly little naieve, inexperienced me just did) by a Dom, we deserve it.  We don't.  Nobody deserves that.

Hey…what goes around comes around?  Why is it you support your husband getting what he doesn’t deserve?  Or…is he nobody, now?
quote:

  And SHIT why does everybody have to be so damned judgmental?  Walk a mile in our shoes, then judge!  Spend ten minutes in my head, twenty minutes with my emotions, then talk. 

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… I think many have, including myself to one degree or another…and we’ve taken responsibility for our feelings and actions………regardless of the consequences………in the effort to be HONEST; moral, honest and trustworthy.



Bearlee -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 1:53:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegarnet
… If you love someone, really love them, and they love you, they deserve your honesty. If you don't love him, then stop being so cruel, and let him go. Break his heart. Just make it a clean break so he actually has a chance to heal and go on and find someone who will be honest and faithful to him. 

^5   !!!
quote:

ORIGINAL: champagnewishes
...It's called being an adult and handling life as one.  I don't think the OP knows how and is content to play cute little games at the expense of those who trust her.... 

EXACTLY!
quote:

:  ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
… You can't stop yourself falling for someone that you happen to meet but do have control over whether you actively look for someone else. If you meet and fall for someone else one should come clean as soon as one has got the guts and not let someone plan the future in the belief the relationship is good. It's planned maliciousness that fills me with rage not a bruised ego.

Great point…if you believe in ‘love at first sight’.  HOW do people fall in love without actively cheating?  It doesn’t ‘just happen’…it IS premeditated if someone actually acts on the attraction!  Still…copping to your infidelity sooner than later IS the best course of action; I’d agree.
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
Everybody lies.  To the boss, spouse, parents...  Just not everyone admits it or even wants to admit it to themselves - which in itself is a lie.
So by that - no one is trustworthy.  Lies are lies - no lie is worse than another - just different. 

Remind me never to enter partnership with dark…
quote:

ORIGINAL: champagnewishes
Cheating AND going behind your Dom's back by posting after he said not to....i'll stop except to post again to explain why i'm not posting.......yeah your real trustworthy my dear.

<cracks up>  You caught that too, cw?  This is getting tooooo funny; in a ‘train wreck’ sorta way! 
 
<sigh>  It is pretty Pollyanna to think adultery and BDSM (illegal in most states) is not going to affect the outcome of some child-custody case.  Geezeeeeeeeee!  In a large majority of cases it DOES affect the outcome to the point of loosing even VISITATION!



Bearlee -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 1:59:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
wow.  And you call Kitten a cheat and going behind her dominants back (which basically is calling her a liar - lets not be PC about this hey).
... However,  you and I both know that she was not disrespecting or violating her dom's trust by posting a short sign-off message - ... 

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh... the woman STATED that he told her to stop posting.  To continue to do so is sorta like 'only doing oral'; that's not really lying/cheating is it... if ya only sex it up a little?
quote:

:ORIGINAL: sskitten
I have so much I'd like to say here.  But I started this thread without consulting my Dom, and now that I've told him, he has asked me to stop posting on it.

…but you haven’t; have you?
quote:

As to Brosco's list, my husband would consider it cheating for me to have any online communication with another man about anything personal without my husband's knowledge.  Since that is where my husband draws the line, that is when it became cheating.

I would agree with your husband, too.  Yup…just at flirting…even before the clandestine meets begin.
quote:

Thank you all for sharing.  I will read the thread but I can say no more.  My Dom can trust me in this much.   :)     

Right…we can see that!  <rolls eyes in agreement w/the brat  (enigmabrat)



darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:00:04 PM)

There is being judgemental.
There is being open and honest.
And then there are posts like yours.

Just fortunate you wouldn't even have the chance to get in any relationship with me.  I am kinda choosey.[;)]





*edit for my own blatent leaving out typo...[8|]



Bearlee -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:02:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
...Well, I stand corrected then if you all have heard of this.  In Jersey its unheard of to lose custody, alimony or anything in a divorce because of kink or adultery.  Not these days.  Years ago it mattered.  Now they just stamp it as a duel fault and send you on your way. 


So what?  You want to cheat AND get alimony?  OMG  Geezzzzzzzzzzeeeee 

quote:

…  Maybe custody isnt even an issue for her.  Most men dont want custody anyway. 


Ut Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!  OMG (waits for da hits)  Geeze, what a thing to say!

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

The jist of your post is Look at me, I can lie and still be totally honest!

Do you not see how silly you sound? 


Well, there it IS…in a nutshell!  Odd, too…cuz she’s starting a club, to boot!   <sigh>  People are weird!   (me included, I’ve been trying to answer this thread all day and it’s going faster than I am!  LOL)



Bearlee -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:04:25 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie
.......That's true, but at least they were honest enough to say hey, this isn't working for me...

     I'd agree 100% with that, feastie!  Course, to be completely PC, we don't know everybody's exact vows; just that some are married and say they’re cheating and apparently think that's reason to start a club.
   Lordy…I can’t keep up!  Okay…I’m just gonna end with: I wish I knew both feastie and puella real-time!!!
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Years ago I had a neighbour whose wife was having an affair and apparently he confronted her and she denied it so he let things go. Some months later he persuaded his wife they ought to buy a new bigger house to which she agreed. When their old house was sold he refused to sign the papers for the new house they were going to buy. By the time his wife had figured out what was going on he had secreted away 50% of the money. She couldn't afford to buy a house herself so she had to get rented accomodation on social security or get a job and let him have custody of the children. It seems he had knew about her infidelity for quite a long time and planned his escape rather than get angry.
Again I don't judge, it takes two to tango. All is fair in love and war.

Yummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  A happy ending (in a twisted sorta way).     I love it!



marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:19:31 PM)

Bearlee:

You are clearly on a rampage to rip through everyone's posts, without a shred of tact, care, or real concern.  Therefore, I really do not wish to answer to your highlighting of my post and commenting on it.  I have no problem with someone questioning me, or not agreeing with me.  However, your behavior is one of a drunken college student on weekend leave, running off like a madman, leaving bodies in your wake.  You are obviously very very angry and very bitter.  Maybe you were cheated on, and it left you hurt.  Im sorry if thats the case, however that is not excuse to come to the thread and tear apart everyone who doesnt feel the way you do. 



Bearlee -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 2:57:08 PM)

marie:

Actually, I found the whole thread fascinating…like the train wreck thingy.  I’m at work and bored stiff…but not drinking; thank you very much.  I’ve seen a bunch of other people comment on 12 pages of threads in the same way (itemized).  I didn’t want to comment on every single one; but some of them were priceless.  Some I agreed with; some I didn’t.  What…this IS a thread; we all DO get to comment, yanno.  I’m on no more of a rampage than the rest of the folks who commented…and more than once. 

Give it a break.  I am neither angry nor bitter; just calling ‘em as I sees ‘em…just like you, honey.  Perhaps nicer, even.



marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 3:00:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

marie:

Actually, I found the whole thread fascinating…like the train wreck thingy.  I’m at work and bored stiff…but not drinking; thank you very much.  I’ve seen a bunch of other people comment on 12 pages of threads in the same way (itemized).  I didn’t want to comment on every single one; but some of them were priceless.  Some I agreed with; some I didn’t.  What…this IS a thread; we all DO get to comment, yanno.  I’m on no more of a rampage than the rest of the folks who commented…and more than once. 

Give it a break.  I am neither angry nor bitter; just calling ‘em as I sees ‘em…just like you, honey.  Perhaps nicer, even.


Well, its nice to know you're getting off on the pain, conflict and dilemmas of fellow humans.  Great morals and integrity there. 



ModeratorEleven -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/13/2006 3:04:35 PM)

Settle down kids.

XI



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