RE: two worlds of trust

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bignipples2share -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 10:51:40 AM)
In reply to your post #156 I don't see how you can say it's always a 50/50 cause and effect. Are you saying because someone believe in their partner and trust that they will be faithful, that it's their fault when they find out they aren't? Everything in the relationship can have been worked on a daily basis, everything looks wonderful, both parties think everything is going fantastic and then the boom is lowered...one of them may have been cheating from day one. How is this the fault of the other, if their only fault was believing the cheater in the first place? Yes, there are people who think that divorce is worse than being with a cheater, but then it should be that persons option to at least know what their options are. There are religeons that don't allow or recognize divorce, in which case the one being cheated on has the option to be permanantly seperated and have NO further contact, or forgive and stay. No matter how you look at it, one is a choice and I see nothing in the other that gives any type of choice. -----Now on to general rant ----- As I see it, this should be titled two worlds of lies. The OP is getting a group together, great. It'll probably end up, somewhere down the line, with a great deal of information on how not to get caught. Okay, you walk into a store, give the cashier $100.00, they give you change for $10.00. You'd be outraged they cheated you. Yeah, but now we're talking about money. Well get this, we're talking about someones' LIFE!!!!! ~Big _____________________ ahhhh I see sounds

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 11:06:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bignipples2share In reply to your post #156 I don't see how you can say it's always a 50/50 cause and effect. Are you saying because someone believe in their partner and trust that they will be faithful, that it's their fault when they find out they aren't? Everything in the relationship can have been worked on a daily basis, everything looks wonderful, both parties think everything is going fantastic and then the boom is lowered...one of them may have been cheating from day one. How is this the fault of the other, if their only fault was believing the cheater in the first place? I did not say that when a spouse cheats, it is the fault of the other. This is the perfect example of word twisting. I said is my belief that when long term relationship succeed/fail, that it is because of both parties involved. Both make mistakes. And I dont think its ok to say that one persons mistakes are acceptable and the other persons mistakes are worse. Im sorry, but I cannot agree with you here. Yes, there are people who think that divorce is worse than being with a cheater, but then it should be that persons option to at least know what their options are. Of course it should, thats why I said the other spouse should be told. What you are refering to wasme discussing the breaking of vows and how the breaking of certain vows are more painful than the breaking of other vows, depending on the person. No one said that the other party shouldnt be told and allowed to have their own options. There are religeons that don't allow or recognize divorce, in which case the one being cheated on has the option to be permanantly seperated and have NO further contact, or forgive and stay. Alot of people forgive their spouses for cheating. In fact, in some cases, one in particular that I know of, It actually improved the marriage, because both parties took a long hard look at what they were doing wrong and corrected it. No matter how you look at it, one is a choice and I see nothing in the other that gives any type of choice. As I see it, this should be titled two worlds of lies. Fine, the OP is getting a group together, great. It'll probably end up, somewhere down the line, with a great deal of information on how not to get caught. Sarcasm helps no one. I did not pick up on this being the OP's jist. But of course you are entitled to your interpretation of her words. However please do not re-word my statements for me. Thank you. ~Big _____________________ ahhhh I see sounds

juliaoceania -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 11:37:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness What is your REAL point? Not to judge someone else? Not to compare morals? The above are questions feastie asked me. Compassion first, Judgement last. That in and of itself is a moral statement.. compassion first and judgment last. It is from your own religion that spurs you on to state this. I respect your religion, although I sense a disrespect for Christianity in some of your posts. You are making the judgment that those of us who do not like adultery are judgmental Protestants. I am not a Protestant nor am I a Catholic, and I love all religions. My stance on adultery deals with the pain it causes families, not because two people that are not married to each other rubbed fuzzies. I recommend you read Puella's post about the family that was wiped out from AIDS and then understand the REAL issue that many of us have about adultery. You are taking your mate's health in your hands... I have compassion for the spouse that finds out their mate gave them a disease that will kill them before I have compassion for the liar/cheater that gave them that disease. Sometimes people judge for good reason

CreativeDominant -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 12:05:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty quote: ORIGINAL: sskitten And this is how and why I live in two worlds of trust. Sorry to be blunt, but this is a load of crap. You are unsatisfied in your vanilla marriage so you lie and cheat. You are a liar and a cheater and to think you live in "two worlds" is just a bit of self-delusion you need to face yourself in the mirror in the morning. I speak from experience here. I lied and I cheated and I told myself it was for some higher purpose and that my wife would never understand that I really needed this. I didn't want to risk my marriage, even though the lies and the cheating had destroyed any real relationship I had or could have with my ex-wife. What you are doing is not noble and it is not necessary. It is unfair to your spouse and, in all honesty, it is unfair to yourself. There is nothing more wonderful than to live your life in honesty with all of those you love (and who love you)...and nothing worse than sharing a bed with someone who doesn't even know the real you. The sooner you realize that this web of self-denial you have woven is nothing but a self-destructive affirmation, the sooner you can get out of your unsatisfying marriage (and let your husband get out of what must be a rather bad marriage) and the sooner you can get on with your life. Life is too short to share it with someone you can't be honest with, and it is way too short to spend it with someone who is not honest with you. Taggard I couldn't agree more, Taggard. I've been there and done that...wound up creating misery for my ex, damaged my relationship with my children (which is still being sorted out 6 yrs. later) and came to realize that if I meant to be what D/s principles proclaim...and yeah, I know, some of them might seem pretty archaic to some...I had to learn to be honest with those I dealt with. Does that mean my patients or anyone else who has no need to know is aware of what I do? No. Does that mean that any potential partner who happens to be vanilla know it? Oh yeah...within 2-3 dates, they have known. I know that now, 6 years later with a lot of hard times under my belt, I have come back to where I was before I began the cheating and lying...an honest person who is dominant and revels in all that D/s and BDSM has to offer...its pain as well as its joy. And it is made immeasurably better for me because I am honest about who and what I am.

CreativeDominant -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 12:33:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl I wouldn't condemn a person for keeping their marriage intact and having another life also. I wouldn't care to judge someone on the whys and wherefores of their choices. Relationships are SO complicated and the reasons for people being unhappy/unfaithful in them, are too. It's too easy to say come clean. It iSN'T always the good, kind and noble thing to do. It's a personal moral dilemma. I certainly don't see that my personal moral code should be applied to anyone other than me. When I stop being an imperfect person and always make the correct choices and decisons for all concerned and for myself, maybe I'll be in a position to judge other people. agirl Too many times in life, people want to say "Live and let live" and let every one go their own way. That is fine, as long as their way does not run roughshod over mine. Your right to swing your arm ends at the tip of my nose. As for being judgmental...people make judgments every day. And no...none of us are perfect. That does not mean that we don't have certain standards and apply them to others in certain aspects of life...murder, child abuse, lying to someone you've promised not to lie to, etc. Otherwise, we'd all sit around and sing Kum-Bye-Ya as all these things happen around us and ignore the hurts of others. Telling someone that they have to face up to their personal responsibility may come across as judgmental but I see it as telling someone that they cannot justify their behavior...at least to the person who is commenting on the other person's behavior.

puella -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 12:41:44 PM)
Perhaps because it said... in reply to puella (please note the spelling) down in the right bottom corner of your post to me? ~shrugs... Anyway.. I think TallDarkandWitty summed things up better than anyone else thus far, and... I don't have two more cents left!

incognitobynight -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 12:45:53 PM)
So far I am not a cheater, but I am contemplating. I have been with my husband for nearly 10 years. We have never had an intimate physical relationship. Not one night! I have told him that if he could not show me some kind of affection (other than to tell me that he loves me), that I should be allowed to find and fulfill that need in me somewhere else. I have tried to leave him. He will not allow me to find it somewhere else (and goes to extreme lengths to make sure I don't), but has pleaded with me not to leave him. We do have a good life together otherwise. People say, "he will be better off knowing the truth. Better off alone". Bull shit! He can do nothing to change who he is (I won't go into details, but he can't), and I don't want to spend the rest of my life without physical intimacy. It would be best for ME to leave him....I know this. But is it best for him? Who are you kidding? He will lose everything ELSE that we have built together. He will lose the only family he has. He will lose the woman who has for the last 10 years SHOWERED him with gifts and attention and who has focused everything on HIM. If I pull all that out from under him now (and I confess, I am thinking of it), how is that better for HIM??? You think this frees him to go find a woman who can't stand to be touched? Get real!. Kitten, you know who I am. Yeah, in a perfect world, I wish I could have a totally open and honest relationship with someone who fulfills my needs, but we don't live in a perfect world. We are all just doing the best that we can. I'm trying not to destroy my husband, if he finds out...he will be hurt. But I'M HURTING NOW!

darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 12:51:52 PM)
Well if you notice the r is next to the e on the keyboard. (Unless you have one of the alternative keyboards) People make simple typos - just as people make mistakes. Constantly. But I will apologise for causing you distress on your name. Peace and Rapture.

CreativeDominant -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 1:00:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BrattyBottomRN THANK YOU KITTEN! yeah, I cheat... no I'm not a monster. I cheat to accomplish something. Yeah that sucks for my husband and yeah it's a horrible thing to do. But the alternative is giving my child a divorced household because mom needs kink. It seems to be split here, there are a lot of people who think when we "cheaters" get our hearts broken (like silly little naieve, inexperienced me just did) by a Dom, we deserve it. We don't. Nobody deserves that. And SHIT why does everybody have to be so damned judgemental? Walk a mile in our shoes, then judge! Spend ten minutes in my head, twenty minutes with my emotions, then talk. I'm with ya chickie. (((((((hugs))))))) I've walked in your shoes. So has Taggard. As for your line about giving your kid a divorced household were you to be honest with your husband, it seems to me that you want to give all to your child...and to you...and leave hubby in the dark. You say you did not deserve to get hurt by the dom who did so...you are right, most people do not deserve to get hurt? What about the hurt being done to your husband by your less than 100 percent devotion and attention to him? Does he deserve that?

meatcleaver -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 1:03:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo And I would agree that those who yell the loudest about their intergrity are usually the ones who are not nearly as pure as they seem to think they are, but they truly believe they are. Someone made a very good comment in another thread which seemed to hit home to me. 'People are more rationalists than rational.'

bignipples2share -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:10:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: bignipples2share In reply to your post #156 I don't see how you can say it's always a 50/50 cause and effect. Are you saying because someone believe in their partner and trust that they will be faithful, that it's their fault when they find out they aren't? Everything in the relationship can have been worked on a daily basis, everything looks wonderful, both parties think everything is going fantastic and then the boom is lowered...one of them may have been cheating from day one. How is this the fault of the other, if their only fault was believing the cheater in the first place? If you read the previous statement, before the question, I said 50/50. I then went on to discuss one part of the 50/50 situation, as in, how can there be 50% fault on the one being cheated on. No matter that it's a new relationship or old, if their only fault was to not see that the other was cheating on them. If they believe, after giving all they can, working on it and being told everything is great. I just don't see how this is a 50/50 deal and asked. There is a question mark after I wrote those words. quote: I did not say that when a spouse cheats, it is the fault of the other. This is the perfect example of word twisting. I did not say you said this either, I asked you a question. That's not twisting words. quote: I said is my belief that when long term relationship succeed/fail, that it is because of both parties involved. Both make mistakes. And I dont think its ok to say that one persons mistakes are acceptable and the other persons mistakes are worse. Im sorry, but I cannot agree with you here. Yes, both parties do make mistakes, I also think that the longer a couple are together, there will be an accumualtion of mistakes and as they are made, you work through them, or you move on when all else fails. I don't really see cheating as a mistake though, I see it as someone making the decision to get into bed with someone other than their partner. I will clarify this with, I know you didn't say it's okay to cheat. quote: Yes, there are people who think that divorce is worse than being with a cheater, but then it should be that persons option to at least know what their options are. Of course it should, thats why I said the other spouse should be told. What you are refering to wasme discussing the breaking of vows and how the breaking of certain vows are more painful than the breaking of other vows, depending on the person. No one said that the other party shouldnt be told and allowed to have their own options. There are religeons that don't allow or recognize divorce, in which case the one being cheated on has the option to be permanantly seperated and have NO further contact, or forgive and stay. Alot of people forgive their spouses for cheating. In fact, in some cases, one in particular that I know of, It actually improved the marriage, because both parties took a long hard look at what they were doing wrong and corrected it. I have seen where this has happened as well. I don't think that it's the right way to make a marriage stronger though and no, by saying this, I'm not implying that you think it is either. From this point down, nothing was directed at you. It was a rant on the subject and yes, the original post. I now know to make sure I use different posts so that there is no confusion and to word everything that I type in at least four different ways and make copies, so that my meanings are not misunderstood, as I see happen so often on forums and of others, not just me, or you. quote: No matter how you look at it, one is a choice and I see nothing in the other that gives any type of choice. As I see it, this should be titled two worlds of lies. Fine, the OP is getting a group together, great. It'll probably end up, somewhere down the line, with a great deal of information on how not to get caught. Sarcasm helps no one. I did not pick up on this being the OP's jist. But of course you are entitled to your interpretation of her words. However please do not re-word my statements for me. Thank you. Again, I don't believe I twisted your words. The part you did get right in my meaning was the sarcastic part, but I also do believe there will be questions asked as to, how did you hide it so well, and there will be others, running for their notepads. ~Big _____________________ ahhhh I see sounds

puella -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:14:23 PM)
There is also this to consider... You can not attempt to even help an alcoholic if they are still at a stage where they are justifying their behavior, no matter who it hurts, with their own superficial needs. Seems to me those here who have professed to cheating and hurting their partners... put their desires and their lack of desire for consequence for their choices above the hurt they cause their family. This display of poor choices and rationalization doesn't seem far different than that. Not much you can do about that, even when they put up a discussion post here, except say your piece and then... I don't know, I guess, sit back and watch them rationalize their deeds and look for others who will act as any sort of enabler for their misbehavior.

bandit25 -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:25:42 PM)
Sorry I couldn't respond until now, meatcleaver. I'm a bit confused by your response...what woman are you talking about? The OP or the one you spoke of earlier? When I said the OP self righteous stance, I meant that she didn't seem contrite. And how IS this two worlds of trust? Even one world of trust since that second world is based on a lie in the first world?

feastie -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:44:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: incognitobynight So far I am not a cheater, but I am contemplating. I have been with my husband for nearly 10 years. We have never had an intimate physical relationship. Not one night! I have told him that if he could not show me some kind of affection (other than to tell me that he loves me), that I should be allowed to find and fulfill that need in me somewhere else. I have tried to leave him. He will not allow me to find it somewhere else (and goes to extreme lengths to make sure I don't), but has pleaded with me not to leave him. We do have a good life together otherwise. People say, "he will be better off knowing the truth. Better off alone". Bull shit! He can do nothing to change who he is (I won't go into details, but he can't), and I don't want to spend the rest of my life without physical intimacy. It would be best for ME to leave him....I know this. But is it best for him? Who are you kidding? He will lose everything ELSE that we have built together. He will lose the only family he has. He will lose the woman who has for the last 10 years SHOWERED him with gifts and attention and who has focused everything on HIM. If I pull all that out from under him now (and I confess, I am thinking of it), how is that better for HIM??? You think this frees him to go find a woman who can't stand to be touched? Get real!. Kitten, you know who I am. Yeah, in a perfect world, I wish I could have a totally open and honest relationship with someone who fulfills my needs, but we don't live in a perfect world. We are all just doing the best that we can. I'm trying not to destroy my husband, if he finds out...he will be hurt. But I'M HURTING NOW! I understand your pain and I understand where you're coming from. I would suggest, before you do anything, to seek couples counseling. You haven't mentioned whether your husband has an interested in BDSM or D/s, if so, you might try to find a kinky friendly counselor. I know the struggle you face and I wish you the best of luck.

meatcleaver -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:50:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 Sorry I couldn't respond until now, meatcleaver. I'm a bit confused by your response...what woman are you talking about? The OP or the one you spoke of earlier? When I said the OP self righteous stance, I meant that she didn't seem contrite. And how IS this two worlds of trust? Even one world of trust since that second world is based on a lie in the first world? Sorry. [sm=ofcourse.gif]I think I'm the one getting confused. It's one world of trust (assuming the new partner knows all the story) and one world of lies. I don't judge the situation without being in the person's shoes but that is how it is and it can't be rationalised away. I have problems bandit once a thread gets past its third page.[sm=confused.gif]

SoquilisGirl -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:52:57 PM)
To the OP (sskitten) I have been in your situation before. I have also been in your husband's situation and your Dom's situation, so I like to think I can see all sides of the story. I don't think you asked for advice but I see a lot of people have been giving it anyway. Based on my own experiences I have to say the following. As the wronged spouse it hurt like hell and left me feeling devastated when my husband lied about his cheating. We have been able to remain civil and acquainted, but that's about it. (We divorced in 1998.) As the person looking outside my relationship for D/s I felt pretty much like you do now. "This is what I need and no one should tell me differently because my partner just doesn't understand and would never do this for me in a million years." In the case of my marriage that was true. My ex-husband thought that BDSM was “sick and disgusting” (his words). Never mind the fact that he has changed his mind about it since then. At the time he couldn't even bring himself to spank me when I begged and pleaded for it. (We didn't divorce over this, but over his deciding he was gay, but that's a whole other story.) In my present relationship, just the opposite happened. My partner was into BDSM and we played a few times, although never intensely and never for sustained periods of time. We had a lot of trouble communicating our needs to each other and eventually I lost interest in it altogether until very recently when I met up with an appealing Dom online. My online Dom reawakened my interest in D/s and he also helped me realize how good and freeing it feels to be completely open and honest about my desires. There were some that he himself had no interest in (such as daddy/daughter play) but just being able to discuss things openly was a huge help to me. Since he lives so far away he gave me permission to play with my RL partner (assuming my partner wanted to) and that lead me to be honest with my partner too. When my partner and I played, in order not to tread on my Dom's toes, he chose the daddy/daughter play. Long story short, he (at long last) revealed to me that he loves this sort of play and has always thought of me as his little girl. After some discussion between the three of us, my online Dom released me so that I could explore this more fully with my partner in RL. I am now happily collared to my partner and he is fulfilling the roles of Daddy and Dom as well as partner in vanilla life. I guess the point of my story is that you never know what might happen if you tell your husband about your desires. He might react badly like my ex-husband did and think you're a pervert. Or, he might react like my partner did and surprise you by wanting to own you. You might end up with everything you wanted all in one man. (I never thought it could happen either, but it has for me, so that tells me it could for others too.) Either way, at least you would be honest with him. You said yourself that your D/s relationship is teaching you the importance of honesty. Shouldn’t that lesson spread to all aspects of your life? I know it’s hard (believe me I do), but the relief you will feel when you are finally honest with yourself and everyone else is indescribably wonderful. Whichever path you choose, I hope it turns out to be the right one for you in the long run. Life is short and it’s sad to spend it hiding who you are from the one you love.

feastie -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:03:59 PM)
What Zen is saying, Dark, is to live and let live. Which is what I generally do. I don't go barging into the homes of others and telling them that their lying and cheating is wrong and hurtful. I do happen to know of a woman who has engaged in several affairs, one of which was with her husband's best friend. I never said a word in judgment to her and I never told her husband. However, she never asked my opinion. When posting on a forum such as this, the thoughts of others is exactly what one is asking for. One doesn't post with the expectation that no one will reply, in any fashion. Whatever statement one puts out, it is never a blanket statement, simply because that power is not ours. So, you put your money down and you take what comes. I did not post anything out of a religious belief or out of hatred. I posted from personal experience. I don't think anyone will say that dishonesty of this magnitude is okay, no matter their religious affiliation. This is not a religious matter, but a human one. I mentioned previously that the reasons for my own affair were not important. They aren't. The reasons for kitten's are not important. What is important is that she's attempting to tell everyone how honest she is, when she's not. What's important is that in order to have this affair, she's lying to everyone in her family. Her husband, her children (if she has any), her parents, his parents...friends, clergy, if she's religious. It doesn't end at your own front door. It's a secret you hide from everyone you know. I don't think a post offering her platitudes is any more helpful than one that doesn't. One that tells her whatever she's doing is okay, honey, is one that is enabling her to continue. One that just might be a kick in the pants may be of more value than anything else. There is a time to wake up and smell the coffee. Sure, there have been some posts that have been wholly outrageous and self-righteous. I never said those were okay either. It is something that she needs to work out for herself, yes. The words of others just might help her in that. It truly is from compassion that I have posted, not judgment. How can I judge when I've done the same thing myself? Compassion doesn't necessarily mean taking someone by the hand, patting them and telling them everything is ok. A lot of times, it hurts before it feels better.

swtnsparkling -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:29:55 PM)
feastie, that was outstanding

enigmabrat -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:37:45 PM)
Honestly what people have to think about is this If you are doing something that you feel you have to justafie or LIE about then it isnt something you should be doing!!

NINASHARP -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:03:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: incognitobynight So far I am not a cheater, but I am contemplating. I have been with my husband for nearly 10 years. We have never had an intimate physical relationship. Not one night! I have told him that if he could not show me some kind of affection (other than to tell me that he loves me), that I should be allowed to find and fulfill that need in me somewhere else. I have tried to leave him. He will not allow me to find it somewhere else (and goes to extreme lengths to make sure I don't), but has pleaded with me not to leave him. We do have a good life together otherwise. People say, "he will be better off knowing the truth. Better off alone". Bull shit! He can do nothing to change who he is (I won't go into details, but he can't), and I don't want to spend the rest of my life without physical intimacy. It would be best for ME to leave him....I know this. But is it best for him? Who are you kidding? He will lose everything ELSE that we have built together. He will lose the only family he has. He will lose the woman who has for the last 10 years SHOWERED him with gifts and attention and who has focused everything on HIM. If I pull all that out from under him now (and I confess, I am thinking of it), how is that better for HIM??? You think this frees him to go find a woman who can't stand to be touched? Get real!. Kitten, you know who I am. Yeah, in a perfect world, I wish I could have a totally open and honest relationship with someone who fulfills my needs, but we don't live in a perfect world. We are all just doing the best that we can. I'm trying not to destroy my husband, if he finds out...he will be hurt. But I'M HURTING NOW! Sorry you are hurting. Contemplating cheating and doing it are two different things. Anyone in your situation would have given up by now. I am surprised that you held out this long, really and the fact that you are still holding on with such dissatisfaction, speaks volumes about your character. I think if you did go outside the marriage now, you would just feel guilty and justify somehow being responsible for the level of intimacy you aren't receiving in your marriage. You deserve to be happy and I don't think you should be held hostage to your husbands discontent. It most likely is not what you had in mind when you agreed to marry him. I know there are two sides to the story, but why would you remain in a situation and worry about his happiness when he doesn't seem to understand that you are so unhappy after expressing it? If you are the world to him then he'd be better to show it rather then discount your needs as his wife. I really do wish you the best of luck Nina

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