RE: two worlds of trust

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meatcleaver -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:23:06 AM)
I wouldn't get worked up about people making judgements, especially on the internet. In my personal experience it is the people who have proclaimed undying honesty and intergrity that have proved the first to have feet of clay. The woman that fucked me over was always going on about her honesty, her moral integrity and her ethical standards. I can hear her making the same proclaimations to the new man in her life. I know she has lied to other people about what she did to me and you know something, I really think she does believe she has integrity. She's not the only 'perfect person' I've come across in my life. My guess is that those perfect people that really believe in their honesty and integrity don't really examine themselves very well and their proclaimation of perfection are more to do with a fucked up puritanism and a must have whiter than white public facade than any intrinsic moral values. I'd go on to say that in my personal experience, the people I know and have admired for their moral integrity have been the last people to judge anyone else.

puella -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:29:43 AM)
Ahh..okay... well, I would have preferred an answer from kitten, but I suppose it doesn't really matter so thank you for clearing that point up. However, I still maintain that if you put your shit up on a public debate forum... you better be ready for people to respond to it, self-help group for professed cheaters or not. Before you start shifting this off on my own moral compass, you need to go back and read her own post, where she states that what she is doing is wrong and hurting her partner, and that she is doing it anyway. Again, if you have willingly entered a life partnership with someone, you have given them the right to know about the decisions you make that impact that relationship. If you need something more from the marriage, you have an obligation to either try to work with your partner on it, or get out. By not telling them and fucking around on the periphery, you are robbing them of their voice, and their choice. You are exposing them to possible physical and emotional harm which can perhaps be avoided. You are making them a victim of your choice and self absorption, and that is not something I would ever support. By putting it on a public forum, I have no problem letting her have my two cents worth. She made that choice too when she slapped her business and story up her for debate.... seems pretty simple to me.

bandit25 -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:30:26 AM)
Well, maybe in your experience meatcleaver. I don't really see this as judgment (maybe some of it is). People are simply expressing their opinions, as you are. I think we've all been fucked over, at least I know I have, but you have to move on. Just my opinion, not a jdugment.

meatcleaver -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:44:46 AM)
Just pointing out that many people don't live up to the perfect vision they have of themselves.

bandit25 -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 3:51:31 AM)
You're right, they don't. But we're all human. I don't know how many of us truly have perfect visions of ourselves. God knows I make mistakes...daily. And I own up to them. And I will make some today and prolly tomorrow. It happens. I just think that some of us find it the OP's somewhat self righteous stance a bit hard to take. Certainly those who live in glass houses.....but I didn't see much stoning going on...I saw it more as a "stop and take a look at what you are saying. See the dichotomy of what you have posted?" At least, that's what I was trying to convey.

meatcleaver -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:02:43 AM)
Well there is certainly nothing to be self righteous about by making mistakes, that does have the effect of magnifying a it. My problem with this woman was not what she did which was bad enough but the fact she couldn't or wouldn't admit what she did and apologise even though there was no way of denying it. That was worse than her malicious act in the first place. People are fallible and lets not pursue them for that but a little humility and contrition can go a long way to mending the hurt our mistakes cause.

doll -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:07:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: sharainks Not to be rude but yes there are still places where your kids can get taken from you for how you conduct yourself. My state is one, the state to the north is as well. Especially if your involvement in the lifestyle becomes known. If you aren't living in a Bible Belt state full of conservatives maybe you would get shared custody but that doesn't generalize to every state and every judge. If anyone thinks a hurt ex won't press that point I wish you the best of luck. I had a sub friend, vanilla husband, who suddenly decided that she had "forced" him to be her dom and that she was sick and unfit. He played the "only trying to keep my marriage together by trying to make her happy" card. Children's services swooped in while dad was supposedly at work, got the kid, delivered him to daddy who had suddenly moved in with mom and pop. Guess what? In court her interest in the lifestyle came to light, and judgie said "I'm concerned about what the child may be exposed to if in the mother's custody." "Mom will have supervised visitation at the ex-inlaws house twice monthly." It can happen. I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen to subs two different times. Different sets of circumstances. Please don't delude yourself into thinking that with a narrow minded judge, "concerned" social workers etc, that it can't happen to you, it can. Shairanks: Are you saying that this friend of yours not only lost custody of her children, but is required to see them only under 'supervision' because the judge found out she was into ds? There were no other factors? Abuse of some sort? Doing something in front of the kids? Endangerment for some other reasons?? Ive never heard of anyone anywhere in anystate losing their kids because of Ds, per se. If anyone has any cases sited on this, I would love to hear about them. I find it rather interesting. It does happen. I had joint custody visitations of my son and when my ex used the D/s card in court the judge felt it was an unhealthy environment for a child to be exposed to and i got no overnight visitations and my visitations were reduced to every other weekend for 6 hours a day. The only thing that stopped me from having supervised visitations is that I lived with my parents at the time. The courts are very conservative when there are children involved.

feastie -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:10:30 AM)
Zen, If the any of the posts were motivated by hatred, your post would definitely apply. Mine is not, never has been. I've expressed my own opinion, which the OP has given me leave to do by opening the thread in the first place. I don't think any of the posts were motivated by hatred, except maybe those flaming others weighing in on the topic. (Which, by the way flamers, give that a rest. Geez!) As noted in another thread: People often don't truly want the opinions of others when they post here, they only want validation of themselves. When someone doesn't agree with them, they take it as a personal attack, which in reality, it is not. Any time one opens a thread on a forum, be it here, a political forum, or one about puppies, they are inviting others to comment. If the comments one receives on her thread are not what she expected, that's a problem within herself, not with the posters. My post is not motivated by Christianity either. Mine is based on the simple concept of honesty in all things between a man and his wife. How can a marriage be healthy if one is lying to the other? If the OP and her husband had agreed that she could seek what she feels she needs outside their relationship, it would be one thing. But they have not. In fact, she states specifically that her husband believes that any conversation with a male online constitutes cheating for him. The direct message of the OP is to promote herself as an honest and trustworthy person, because she's honest with her dominant. That in itself is a lie to herself, as she's in the midst of daily lies within her own household. Being honest with one does not make one trustworthy when you're lying to and cheating on the other. She maintains that her OP is not to justify her actions, but really, she's wanting us all to say how wonderful it is that she found she can be so transparent with her dominant. Kudos based in lies do what for a person? They justify their actions.

darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:46:51 AM)
Hello purella I responded for her with the knowledge that I have(which is first hand), as she had already started in the thread that she would not be returning - so I was just trying to be of assistance in answering your question as I knew she would not - as welcome or as unwelcome as that is. I never shifted onto anyones moral compass. I stated what the post was not meant to be. I have also stated (elsewhere) that the OP obviously knew the possible outcome, but posted anyway - because she was well aware the risk involved and believed the positive outweighed the moral right. If you felt that was directed specifically towards yourself (just because it was on that specific post and for no other reason) - then maybe wonder to oneself, why that is? Peace and Rapture

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:57:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I wouldn't get worked up about people making judgements, especially on the internet. In my personal experience it is the people who have proclaimed undying honesty and intergrity that have proved the first to have feet of clay. The woman that fucked me over was always going on about her honesty, her moral integrity and her ethical standards. I can hear her making the same proclaimations to the new man in her life. I know she has lied to other people about what she did to me and you know something, I really think she does believe she has integrity. She's not the only 'perfect person' I've come across in my life. My guess is that those perfect people that really believe in their honesty and integrity don't really examine themselves very well and their proclaimation of perfection are more to do with a fucked up puritanism and a must have whiter than white public facade than any intrinsic moral values. I'd go on to say that in my personal experience, the people I know and have admired for their moral integrity have been the last people to judge anyone else. This is an interesting post. Slightly off track I would like to add that it has been my experience that people who say "I will never lie to you", "Im very honest", "Trust me" etc always turn out to be the biggest liars. In my experience I have found that those who are it, just are it, they have no reason to profess it. Be it morality, honesty, wealth, education, experience or what have you. Eh...I think we've all been fucked over, or fucked someone else over, even if we didnt mean to. And yeah, I also think that alot of times people do lie and dont even realize theyre doing it, or somehow they see their own lie as less caustic than lies that other people tell. Basically we are wired to justify our own reasons for doing something in order to live with it. Whether its cheating, lying, betraying a friend's confidence etc etc Yes, I think we all agree that cheating on your spouse is wrong (including the OP). And I would agree that those who yell the loudest about their intergrity are usually the ones who are not nearly as pure as they seem to think they are, but they truly believe they are. Our brains are just wired to work that way. We convince ourselves quite automatically of whatever we need to, to make something work in our heads the way we need it to. ie "Yes Im betraying a friends confidence, but Im doing it to protect someone", "yes I lied to my mother, but I did it so she wouldnt worry about me", "Im hiding my affair from my husband because I know it will crush him", etc etc. Doesnt make any of the above scenerios right morally, but we've all done it at some point. And we all most likely will continue to do these types of things.

ZenDragoness -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 4:57:24 AM)
I give up to make myself clear here - or not? If anything than i am, if not on the same than on a page that resembles darkinshadows page. She as a mothertongue english speaker can obviously make herself clearer, than i am. Very short: Moral is personal. Moral philosophy is general, but only for the school they are promoting. Judging other people is the most easy task, if it is done to gain something personal. I faced moral dilemmas in my life, i decided them by living by my ground principles: Secrets are binding energy and without fears from the past and without hopes in to the future. But this is my way, my world and my decisions. I am not one who easily condemm other people, or as i put it some 25 years ago: I am in nothing fanatic, only in my stance against fanatism, be it political, religious, philosophical or whatever grounded. And as much as i believe that every love enriches us all, so much i believe that the opening poster would benefit from coming clean, but i do not think that heavy moral texts will help her in that. And a somebody else mentioned, a support group is a self help group. My hackles rise, when people are not allowed to help each other or an adult cheating on an adult is put in the same league as a pedophile, this is in my moral book hardly the same, although both is going against my core beliefs. This was the last try,,,,Peace and Harmony form a finally after a very cold May sunny and warm Berlin. ZenDragoness

darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:00:00 AM)
You see a self righteous stance - I see someone trying to do something positive in a negative situation. You are right, she never said she what she was doing was right - quite the opposite in fact. But in opposition to meatcleavers thoughts that she wasn't apologising - should she have to? A support group gives people time - and that is what people in the position that kitten is in needs. Time and understanding. Very few people in this hectic and selfish world we live in can be bothered to 'waste time'. There are two possible outcomes to allow growth - but they are reached over time... and that is what she is offering others - instead of other peoples morality. And for that I personally support her. Peace and Rapture

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:01:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: doll quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: sharainks Not to be rude but yes there are still places where your kids can get taken from you for how you conduct yourself. My state is one, the state to the north is as well. Especially if your involvement in the lifestyle becomes known. If you aren't living in a Bible Belt state full of conservatives maybe you would get shared custody but that doesn't generalize to every state and every judge. If anyone thinks a hurt ex won't press that point I wish you the best of luck. I had a sub friend, vanilla husband, who suddenly decided that she had "forced" him to be her dom and that she was sick and unfit. He played the "only trying to keep my marriage together by trying to make her happy" card. Children's services swooped in while dad was supposedly at work, got the kid, delivered him to daddy who had suddenly moved in with mom and pop. Guess what? In court her interest in the lifestyle came to light, and judgie said "I'm concerned about what the child may be exposed to if in the mother's custody." "Mom will have supervised visitation at the ex-inlaws house twice monthly." It can happen. I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen to subs two different times. Different sets of circumstances. Please don't delude yourself into thinking that with a narrow minded judge, "concerned" social workers etc, that it can't happen to you, it can. Shairanks: Are you saying that this friend of yours not only lost custody of her children, but is required to see them only under 'supervision' because the judge found out she was into ds? There were no other factors? Abuse of some sort? Doing something in front of the kids? Endangerment for some other reasons?? Ive never heard of anyone anywhere in anystate losing their kids because of Ds, per se. If anyone has any cases sited on this, I would love to hear about them. I find it rather interesting. It does happen. I had joint custody visitations of my son and when my ex used the D/s card in court the judge felt it was an unhealthy environment for a child to be exposed to and i got no overnight visitations and my visitations were reduced to every other weekend for 6 hours a day. The only thing that stopped me from having supervised visitations is that I lived with my parents at the time. The courts are very conservative when there are children involved. If you dont mind my asking, how was it proven? Couldnt you have easily made a claim about your ex having an affair, or being kinky? This is why Jersey courts wont even hear this crap. Unless there is proof of abuse, they seriously dont care if you hang from a tree and fuck squirrels, as long as you dont do it in front of the kids. And even if you did, it would have to be proven. If a spouse could just go into court and make a claim about the other, everyone would be doing to win custody. I dont get how these men are getting away with this. What are they using for proof??

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:03:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: puella Ahh..okay... well, I would have preferred an answer from kitten, but I suppose it doesn't really matter so thank you for clearing that point up. She is no longer allowed (as per her Dom) to post on this thread. She is however allowed to read the other posts.

feastie -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:12:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness I give up to make myself clear here - or not? If anything than i am, if not on the same than on a page that resembles darkinshadows page. She as a mothertongue english speaker can obviously make herself clearer, than i am. Very short: Moral is personal. Moral philosophy is general, but only for the school they are promoting. Judging other people is the most easy task, if it is done to gain something personal. I faced moral dilemmas in my life, i decided them by living by my ground principles: Secrets are binding energy and without fears from the past and without hopes in to the future. But this is my way, my world and my decisions. I am not one who easily condemm other people, or as i put it some 25 years ago: I am in nothing fanatic, only in my stance against fanatism, be it political, religious, philosophical or whatever grounded. And as much as i believe that every love enriches us all, so much i believe that the opening poster would benefit from coming clean, but i do not think that heavy moral texts will help her in that. And a somebody else mentioned, a support group is a self help group. My hackles rise, when people are not allowed to help each other or an adult cheating on an adult is put in the same league as a pedophile, this is in my moral book hardly the same, although both is going against my core beliefs. This was the last try,,,,Peace and Harmony form a finally after a very cold May sunny and warm Berlin. ZenDragoness Your first post said we should all walk in her shoes. I have Your second post said that your first post meant we shouldn't post in hatred. Most haven't. What is your REAL point? Not to judge someone else? Not to compare morals? She asked for the opinions of others when she posted. It's as simple as that. What, are we all supposed to say...oh it's okay, whatever you want to do is fine? Well, you know, it is no problem of mine what she decides to do with her life. But I think what you're missing is that if no one cared about her life, her husband and her children, no one would have posted anything. No, we don't have to know her to care about her and tell her hey, we think you're creating a trainwreck in your life. If we all went around complimenting each other on bad behavior and offering platitudes instead of opinions, if we all just let things slide, do you believe we'd reach Utopia?

doll -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:13:51 AM)
I freely admitted that I am in this "lifestyle", but pointed out that I wouldn't do anything in front of my son bdsm or vanilla. The judge thought that it was in my son's best interest....sighs.

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:26:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness And as much as i believe that every love enriches us all, so much i believe that the opening poster would benefit from coming clean, but i do not think that heavy moral texts will help her in that. And a somebody else mentioned, a support group is a self help group. My hackles rise, when people are not allowed to help each other or an adult cheating on an adult is put in the same league as a pedophile, this is in my moral book hardly the same, although both is going against my core beliefs. ZenDragoness Im with you, on this one. As outsiders, we know this is not justifiable. We know this isnt right, so does the OP, as she herself has stated. But she thinks that telling her hubby is worse than what she is doing. She is the one immersed in it, therefore she is the one with the clouded vision on it. Its easy for us to sit here and tell her that the right thing to do is tell the hubby. But in her mind, thats the wrong move. I think what she really needs is a different perspective to view it from. Not someone to tell her that what shes doing is ok, but someone to help show her the different angles that this could be viewed from. Support that she can turn this around. Maybe some words of wisdom, or a fresh and positive perspective to view it from. Other stories of successful divorces. Other stories of people who thought they couldnt make it and did. ANYTHING that will help point her in a direction of belief that telling the H is a POSITIVE thing.. Casting stones with the words morality, intergrity and honesty at her because she opened herself up to the public is not going to help her. Its only going to make the 'moral' crowd feel better about their own 'morality'. I wonder how some would react if this was a very dear friend of theirs who came to them and confessed this. Or how people would react if someone confessed this in a rt group therapy session. If she went to a shrink would the shrink scold her? I doubt it. No, we arent shrinks, but what makes anyone think that a firm scolding followed by a condemnation of her character as a human being is going to help her OR the hubby? Someone putting themselves in a public forum does not mean they volunteered to be a punching bag; it doesnt give us cart blanche to tear into her like vultures on roadkill. Who is that going to help?

darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 5:37:23 AM)
quote: Your first post said we should all walk in her shoes. I have Your second post said that your first post meant we shouldn't post in hatred. Most haven't. What is your REAL point? Not to judge someone else? Not to compare morals? She asked for the opinions of others when she posted. It's as simple as that. What, are we all supposed to say...oh it's okay, whatever you want to do is fine? Well, you know, it is no problem of mine what she decides to do with her life. But I think what you're missing is that if no one cared about her life, her husband and her children, no one would have posted anything. No, we don't have to know her to care about her and tell her hey, we think you're creating a trainwreck in your life. If we all went around complimenting each other on bad behavior and offering platitudes instead of opinions, if we all just let things slide, do you believe we'd reach Utopia? Feastie, first, I would suggest that it might assist if you try to see beyond the words that ZenDragoness is writing as it was obvious by reading her words (and taking the time to observe her profile) that English isn't her first language. It would help to look at the context that she is writing in as well. I can see what Zen is trying to articulate - and I believe she is doing very well - it just takes patience to read through the entire context. As for posting hatred - I think that words is subjective - I wouldn't say hate - but distain definately. The posts, whilst some are 'yes we understand' the majority is 'you are morally wrong, deal with it'. But that is the point of her post. She is dealing with it. That is why she posted the support group. Kitten never said she was right in her behaviour. But she is trying to deal with it. And again that infamous word 'time' plays its hand. And no, I do not agree that just by posting she was 'asking for other peoples opinons'. Not once in the OP did she ask anyones thoughts. Of course, shes not naive enough to think people aren't going to respond - but she never specifically asked. She was sharing for those out there that have an idea what she is going through now. Not way back in the day, not in the future, but now. It isn't a post for the likes of you and me that aren't in her position, but those caught in the 'badlands' between conscience and need. But that doesn't mean people can't or won't respond - but I think it is disrespectful to the post to take it so off topic and have it turned into a moral issue when it was never origianlly designed for that purpose. Of course topics often drift - it happens. But sometimes it is a more positive position to try and regain the original focus. And I don't apologise for looking positively. And if people really cared, they would allow the time - and they would give the time - their time - and not hound and say 'bad girl - hurry up and come to your senses'. Peace and Rapture.

jezzabelle -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 6:49:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sskitten I do live in two worlds of trust. Okay, first sskitten, let me just say, this post is not meant as an attack, just bringing up some points. Ultimately, what you do and how you live your life is up to you, no one can change that. Only you can decide to stop doing what you're are doing and stop hurting yourself and everyone else involved. Technically it's not "two" worlds of trust. One world is filled with lies and deception. You mentioned about being completely honest and transparent with your dom. Have you ever considered that you are possibly holding parts of yourself back from him since you have to live two lives? I just don't see how that's being completely honest and open with your dom when you have to live two seperate lives, one being a life of lies. You're not being honest to yourself, your dom or your husband living your life the way that you are. You really need to stop living two lives. It's not fair to all involved. Lying to your husband isn't sparing him, it's hurting him. You've decided how you want to live your life, shouldn't he be allowed to do the same and stop having you do it for him? Did you ever consider that maybe he's unhappy and wants more also, but is holding back because of you and might be relieved to know that you want and need a change too? I wish that you were still allowed to reply because I noticed you continually avoided answering one question that was brought up and it would be interesting to hear your response to it. How would you feel if your husband was cheating on you? Would you also prefer that he keep you in the dark to spare you? Or would you rather he be open with you about how he feels and what he's doing? Just one last thing, you mentioned two worlds of trust when technically there are three. You have trust that you are violating with your children. You're pretending things are still wonderful with their dad and it's not. I know you are staying in the marriage to spare them, but how will they feel when they find out someday that you were lying to them all those years when you pretended to still love their father? What kind of example are you setting for them? Wouldn't you rather set the example that they should always be honest not only with their partners, but with themselves? How can they learn to be true to themselves and not pretend to be someone they are not when that is exactly what you are doing? Just some food for thought.

ZenDragoness -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 6:52:05 AM)
What is your REAL point? Not to judge someone else? Not to compare morals? The above are questions feastie asked me. Compassion first, Judgement last.

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