RE: Why do we fear taxes? (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 6:58:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:


We fear becoming an enabler to a thug who is going to kick down our door and order us to stop butt fucking our women.


You'd have to shoot me first.

I don't fear taxes. I just want them applied equally across the board without loopholes, deductions or other ways to avoid paying them. In general, I support a 10% flat tax for individuals and businesses. I don't think the government is entitled to any more of my money than that regardless of how rich I become.

JMO


Oh my another person who has not taken econ 101 but has an uneducated opinion to infict on us.

I am very curious even though it's been a couple days. What do taxes have to do with economics 101 ? I'd be interested in discussing what you've learned on the subject.

I think but await comment, 'economics 101' takes us back to the first cities where 1,000's (say 6-9000 years ago) where people conducted commerce but taxes (there being no state as we know it to require or collect them) do not go back that far.

What is or would of course have to be therefore, the modern effect, taxes would have on 'economics 101 except of course in the most general sense, i.e. taxes changes the buying or use of capital decisions from the individual to the group or 'king.'




Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 7:01:39 AM)

Economics 101 is generally macroeconomics, not the history of economics. Western Civ I would cover that.

Economics 102 is generally microeconomics.




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 7:44:16 AM)

quote:

I am very curious even though it's been a couple days. What do taxes have to do with economics 101 ? I'd be interested in discussing what you've learned on the subject.

The relevance is in the call for a flat tax.
The pro and con of which would be discussed in a macro-econ class.


quote:

I think but await comment, 'economics 101' takes us back to the first cities where 1,000's (say 6-9000 years ago) where people conducted commerce but taxes (there being no state as we know it to require or collect them) do not go back that far.


Tim mentioned that this would be covered under history of economics. A cursory perusal of the literature will show that your opinion of the state of economic development is less than accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_cities#Neolithic_settlements

This cite will show you ten cities that exixted 6-9000 years ago with populations up to 10,000.
How does a culture have a city of thousands of people and not have a tax of some sort to support that infrastructure?









MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 7:48:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Economics 101 is generally macroeconomics, not the history of economics. Western Civ I would cover that.

Economics 102 is generally microeconomics.

Not to hijack but I do believe along with many bloggers and students, what is taught in college is often designed to fit into an agenda...political and therefore, private business.

For example, there is nothing at all in econo 101 that would explain a single govt. insurance program for retail bank deposits (FDIC) and in fact would in itself represent a bastardization of the balance of economic research and economic forces as we've added govt. force or influence. The same goes for other contributions and subtractions involving the govt.'s effect on economy.

For another example, I've heard and read that the definition of m2-m5 are only there to justify the so-called science behind the 4 new doctoral thesis of decades ago and actually has little or no effect on either M1 (cash) or econ 101.

If one goes to the classes, it involves at least according to the ones I've found...almost every decision made involving money. I completely disagree. For example, college courses have may still teach that 6% UNemployment is FULL employment.

Let's wrap our heads around that one. At 8% now it is bad, but putting a couple more million to work would be it kinkroids...FULL employment. Now does that fit your political or economic agenda ? No ? Then what, did you get an F in econ 101` ? Econ 101...6% Unemployed IS full employment.

I like to start with the definition:

Economics is the science that deals with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services, or the material welfare of humankind.

Even the so-called 'material welfare' of humankind could be reduced to what's for dinner tonight for the caveman.

Seems we are no longer satisfied with economics being the actual fulfillment (satisfying) of demand due to accessible supply.

I.e, there is always demand say, for food, shelter and clothing...the basics of life. Economy does not actually become a reality until one arrives at something that can be transferred in exchange to satisfy that demand.

I.e., if I have nothing to exchange to satisfy my demand for food for example...I starve. Other than that, I am at a loss to justify much more in exactly what is econ 101 just to fill out somebody's educational or political desires or philosophy.

For example, econo 101 and the science exists and is a requirement for us to learn, absent taxes, the household and govt. Those factors effect economy but is not necessary to study the science.

Think of college courses in the old Soviet Union. The old joke is 'soviet economists'...how could there be any ? Just what do they think they know and how would they know it ?

Science classes in economics almost always leads to political/economy which to me is a further bastardization of economic because the science itself needs no govt. or its involvement...to explain it.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 8:21:27 AM)

quote:

Not to hijack but I do believe along with many bloggers and students, what is taught in college is often designed to fit into an agenda...political and therefore, private business.

For example, there is nothing at all in econo 101 that would explain a single govt. insurance program for retail bank deposits (FDIC) and in fact would in itself represent a bastardization of the balance of economic research and economic forces as we've added govt. force or influence. The same goes for other contributions and subtractions involving the govt.'s effect on economy.

For another example, I've heard and read that the definition of m2-m5 are only there to justify the so-called science behind the 4 new doctoral thesis of decades ago and actually has little or no effect on either M1 (cash) or econ 101.

If one goes to the classes, it involves at least according to the ones I've found...almost every decision made involving money. I completely disagree. For example, college courses have may still teach that 6% UNemployment is FULL employment.

Let's wrap our heads around that one. At 8% now it is bad, but putting a couple more million to work would be it kinkroids...FULL employment. Now does that fit your political or economic agenda ? No ? Then what, did you get an F in econ 101` ? Econ 101...6% Unemployed IS full employment.


Well your first problem is that you aren't at all dealing with facts or reality, but with your beliefs and fantasies about what happens in an Econ 101 class.

You then jump to discussion of agenda driven points not at all in Econ 101. FDIC is a reality of finance, not economics. Your war on the Ms is unnecessary -- Econ 101 is going to cover M1 and M2. You are entirely making up the 8% full employment number. It's a debatable number, but generally 5% is accepted.

What IS covered in Econ 101 are the basics of supply and demand, aggregate supply and aggregate demand, markets, and understanding of what the Fed does (not whether it should), how the money multiplier works, what the GDP and GNP numbers mean and where we get them, generic stuff like that.

What we should DO about any of that is in Political Science class.

Back to ancient history and taxes -- you're wrong on that as well. Taxes are as old as civilization itself, literally.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 8:25:54 AM)

Igg, Ogg, and the Creation of Taxes

“Igg? I’m tired of all this huntin’ and gatherin’.”

Igg looked at Ogg. “Me too,” he sighed.

“So what say,” Ogg continued, “We raise all these plants and animals ourselves? No more rushin’ around!”

“Now that’s a plan!” agreed Igg. And so agriculture began.

Wisely, Igg and Ogg weren’t quick to quit hunting and gathering, since at first they were largely unsuccessful. They realized eventually that timing played a crucial role.

“Igg? How are we gonna know when exactly to plant?” asked Ogg.

“Hmmm...I know a guy who can read the stars to calculate the seasons...” suggested Igg.

The ancient astronomer got the job, under the title of Priest.

Igg and Ogg prospered, encouraging others to follow their example. All the Priest’s friends got jobs, creating organized religion.

One day, Igg and Ogg toured their plantation along the riverbank and noticed a disturbing trend--less and less water reached their crops. Taking a walk upstream, they soon saw why: many new converts to agriculture were diverting the river’s water to irrigate their crops. When questioned, these new farmers invariably replied, “We have to make a living too!”

On the way back downstream, Igg and Ogg talked to several other farmers who also complained about the dwindling water supply. Consequently, Igg and Ogg organized a meeting of all the riverside crop growers. After considerable debate, the farming community realized that water rights must be controlled by a central authority, thus creating law, government, and bureaucracy. Civilization was born.

The new village thrived at first, but some of the farmers failed to honor the water rights agreements. Igg and Ogg called another meeting, and soon enforcement of the law fell to the newly created police force. Further, to ensure the fairness of police enforcement, a new judicial system and penal code arose. The village rejoiced.

Unfortunately, so did the nomads in the mountains above the village. “Look!” they advised each other, “These people work all year and create all this food in one place, ready for the taking! Mount your horses!” And so they did, in a devastating raid. War had entered the world.

The village did not rejoice. “All our hard work! Our families will starve! We must protect ourselves!” Another village meeting instituted an army.

But Igg and Ogg had an additional concern. “The village has priests and governors and legislators and police and justices and lawyers and soldiers and commanders,” explained Igg, “But the village needs these people to commit so much time to their professions that they can no longer realistically take the time to raise their own food.” After a long silence, Ogg suggested,” Suppose each farmer raises a little more than needed for mere self-sufficiency? Then, the surplus could go to the professionals necessary for the security of the village.” Long debate followed, but necessity instituted the plan. Taxes had entered the world. And to help keep tax records, mathematics and writing soon followed.

Life was wonderful thereafter. People invented leisure time and explored human existence by creating and practicing various arts and sciences. People also continued to learn to work together, specializing in various trades, providing new products and professional services. Education strove to ensure and expand village life, thought, and culture. But, unfortunately, greed was not limited to the mountain nomads.

“It’s YOUR money!” proclaimed Ugg in his bid for village government. “Every year since this village started, more and more of your hard earned money goes toward supporting Big Government!”

Igg listened, confused. “But those taxes pay for the services necessary to run this village,” he countered.

“Wasteful spending! Tax and spend! Tax and spend!” continued Ugg.

“Shouldn’t we then trim the waste, if that’s so, rather than cut revenue?” asked Igg.

“You see,” explained the Priest, “Cutting taxes will actually increase government revenue.”

“So, if instead of tithing,” retorted Igg, “People only gave five percent, church revenue would increase?” The Priest kept quiet.

“Cutting taxes stimulates the economy!” shouted Ugg. “It creates jobs!”

“Given certain circumstances, I suppose that’s theoretically possible,” mused Igg, “But such a blanket proposition makes several unsupported assumptions. For example, won’t trimming spending also cost jobs? And doesn’t government spending ALSO enter the economy?”

Ogg had doubts too. “Cutting taxes means cutting services,” he explained, “Services we instituted with good reason. Important, necessary services.”

Ugg didn’t seem to hear. “This slow economy means we MUST cut taxes NOW! The more cuts, the more the stimulus! And private industry in this great village of ours can best provide services to our wonderful people!”

Igg turned to Ogg. “Does he mean that cutting all taxes would best benefit the village?”

Ogg considered. “Well...if not by taxes, the village would need to exploit natural resources, or consistently plunder other villages, or institute slaves to produce excess revenue.”

“And privatizing government services,” added Igg, “Would mean that police, justice, armed forces and so forth would only be for hire. Further, the large landowners would benefit most from lower taxes, at least in the short run, because only those families could afford education. Our village’s professional talents would atrophy.”

Ugg’s enthusiasm had now attracted quite an audience, drawn by promises of invading the mountains to conquer the nomads, cutting the forests to increase village resources, and asking all citizens to sacrifice for the good of the village in order to make tax cuts possible and to eliminate government interference in their affairs. Nationalism was born.

Igg and Ogg looked at each other once more, then turned and walked toward the forest, while it would still be possible to hunt and gather.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 8:31:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

First time I hear the words supply-side


"Supply-side" is simply a term with a definition much like the term congruent triangle is a term in geometry with a definition.


quote:

or that to reduce 1040 tax rates increases 1040 receipts...I walk the fuck out and take the F.


Had you ever actually taken a college class in economics(or anything else) you would know that you can drop the class and not take an f.

quote:

I'd rather go to law school...something with some real facts and logic behind it.


[8|]

Supply-side is just another term to justify a very specious theory that to lower tax rates...increases tax receipts. The former was tried and the latter never happened, therefore so-called supply-side is in fact...a ridiculous theory.

Economy is society's (individual's) ability to satisfy demand with existing supply. Supply is the production of good and services, hopefully...to satisfy that demand.

Enough about college and what the professors are supposed to 'teach' us. Reason is sufficient particularly for economics, it being a science without technology.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 8:36:36 AM)

quote:

Supply-side is just another term to justify a very specious theory that to lower tax rates...increases tax receipts. The former was tried and the latter never happened, therefore so-called supply-side is in fact...a ridiculous theory.


You're conflating two ideas here. Yes, supply-side was used to justify the Lauffer curve (and then the Reagan team merely assumed we were at or past the mid-point; clearly we weren't), but that causal theory has been shown inaccurate, but you then call that theory supply-side. They aren't the same. Certainly we can move the aggregate supply curve, and certainly that effects markets. It's the "trickle down" nonsense that Reaganomics was selling, and that's not part of the supply-side model (just sold as such).




MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 8:51:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Igg, Ogg, and the Creation of Taxes

“Igg? I’m tired of all this huntin’ and gatherin’.”

Igg looked at Ogg. “Me too,” he sighed.

“So what say,” Ogg continued, “We raise all these plants and animals ourselves? No more rushin’ around!”

“Now that’s a plan!” agreed Igg. And so agriculture began.

Wisely, Igg and Ogg weren’t quick to quit hunting and gathering, since at first they were largely unsuccessful. They realized eventually that timing played a crucial role.

“Igg? How are we gonna know when exactly to plant?” asked Ogg.

“Hmmm...I know a guy who can read the stars to calculate the seasons...” suggested Igg.

The ancient astronomer got the job, under the title of Priest.

Igg and Ogg prospered, encouraging others to follow their example. All the Priest’s friends got jobs, creating organized religion.

One day, Igg and Ogg toured their plantation along the riverbank and noticed a disturbing trend--less and less water reached their crops. Taking a walk upstream, they soon saw why: many new converts to agriculture were diverting the river’s water to irrigate their crops. When questioned, these new farmers invariably replied, “We have to make a living too!”

On the way back downstream, Igg and Ogg talked to several other farmers who also complained about the dwindling water supply. Consequently, Igg and Ogg organized a meeting of all the riverside crop growers. After considerable debate, the farming community realized that water rights must be controlled by a central authority, thus creating law, government, and bureaucracy. Civilization was born.

The new village thrived at first, but some of the farmers failed to honor the water rights agreements. Igg and Ogg called another meeting, and soon enforcement of the law fell to the newly created police force. Further, to ensure the fairness of police enforcement, a new judicial system and penal code arose. The village rejoiced.

Unfortunately, so did the nomads in the mountains above the village. “Look!” they advised each other, “These people work all year and create all this food in one place, ready for the taking! Mount your horses!” And so they did, in a devastating raid. War had entered the world.

The village did not rejoice. “All our hard work! Our families will starve! We must protect ourselves!” Another village meeting instituted an army.

But Igg and Ogg had an additional concern. “The village has priests and governors and legislators and police and justices and lawyers and soldiers and commanders,” explained Igg, “But the village needs these people to commit so much time to their professions that they can no longer realistically take the time to raise their own food.” After a long silence, Ogg suggested,” Suppose each farmer raises a little more than needed for mere self-sufficiency? Then, the surplus could go to the professionals necessary for the security of the village.” Long debate followed, but necessity instituted the plan. Taxes had entered the world. And to help keep tax records, mathematics and writing soon followed.

Life was wonderful thereafter. People invented leisure time and explored human existence by creating and practicing various arts and sciences. People also continued to learn to work together, specializing in various trades, providing new products and professional services. Education strove to ensure and expand village life, thought, and culture. But, unfortunately, greed was not limited to the mountain nomads.

“It’s YOUR money!” proclaimed Ugg in his bid for village government. “Every year since this village started, more and more of your hard earned money goes toward supporting Big Government!”

Igg listened, confused. “But those taxes pay for the services necessary to run this village,” he countered.

“Wasteful spending! Tax and spend! Tax and spend!” continued Ugg.

“Shouldn’t we then trim the waste, if that’s so, rather than cut revenue?” asked Igg.

“You see,” explained the Priest, “Cutting taxes will actually increase government revenue.”

“So, if instead of tithing,” retorted Igg, “People only gave five percent, church revenue would increase?” The Priest kept quiet.

“Cutting taxes stimulates the economy!” shouted Ugg. “It creates jobs!”

“Given certain circumstances, I suppose that’s theoretically possible,” mused Igg, “But such a blanket proposition makes several unsupported assumptions. For example, won’t trimming spending also cost jobs? And doesn’t government spending ALSO enter the economy?”

Ogg had doubts too. “Cutting taxes means cutting services,” he explained, “Services we instituted with good reason. Important, necessary services.”

Ugg didn’t seem to hear. “This slow economy means we MUST cut taxes NOW! The more cuts, the more the stimulus! And private industry in this great village of ours can best provide services to our wonderful people!”

Igg turned to Ogg. “Does he mean that cutting all taxes would best benefit the village?”

Ogg considered. “Well...if not by taxes, the village would need to exploit natural resources, or consistently plunder other villages, or institute slaves to produce excess revenue.”

“And privatizing government services,” added Igg, “Would mean that police, justice, armed forces and so forth would only be for hire. Further, the large landowners would benefit most from lower taxes, at least in the short run, because only those families could afford education. Our village’s professional talents would atrophy.”

Ugg’s enthusiasm had now attracted quite an audience, drawn by promises of invading the mountains to conquer the nomads, cutting the forests to increase village resources, and asking all citizens to sacrifice for the good of the village in order to make tax cuts possible and to eliminate government interference in their affairs. Nationalism was born.

Igg and Ogg looked at each other once more, then turned and walked toward the forest, while it would still be possible to hunt and gather.

That's really quite good. The unfortunate aspect of and here is a word many on the right favor...modernity, is that society and its great enthusiasm for work and to be among the taxed...didn't quite react the same way. (we certainly haven't seem more and more of '.....' every year, we've had very good fiscal conservative borrowers)

The federal tax rate cuts of both the Reagan and Bush II 1st terms resulted in a reduction in 1040 receipts to such a level...also in both cases, that...it took 4 years just to get back to the level of the last year before the cuts. Did Igg and Ogg have similar 'success ?' We don't know.

Did Igg and Ogg use the monetary system or barter but of course we know. How does a reduction in my barter to the govt. for it services...increase demand for others and thereby increase what can be bartered to the govt.?

There must be gold or silver or something involved that which could free the ancient world from barter make this story much more applicable to...modernity.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:02:17 AM)

Actually, you mean did Ugg have success, and modern examples suggest "no."

You then go on to again conflate issues. Taxes are a fiscal matter. Monetary systems are another.




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:06:50 AM)

quote:

Enough about college and what the professors are supposed to 'teach' us. Reason is sufficient particularly for economics, it being a science without technology.


You are entitled to your opinion no matter how ignorant,unsubstantiated or ill informed it may be.
You wish to inflict your ignorance on this board by the artifice of telling how wrong something, you do not understand, is.
Perhaps if you actually knew the definitions of the words you are using your post would not appear so childish.
But:
You do not care what the words actually mean you just want to snivel about getting fucked in the wallet by the banksters and blame it on the party that you do not belong to.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:07:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Supply-side is just another term to justify a very specious theory that to lower tax rates...increases tax receipts. The former was tried and the latter never happened, therefore so-called supply-side is in fact...a ridiculous theory.


You're conflating two ideas here. Yes, supply-side was used to justify the Lauffer curve (and then the Reagan team merely assumed we were at or past the mid-point; clearly we weren't), but that causal theory has been shown inaccurate, but you then call that theory supply-side. They aren't the same. Certainly we can move the aggregate supply curve, and certainly that effects markets. It's the "trickle down" nonsense that Reaganomics was selling, and that's not part of the supply-side model (just sold as such).

I can go with this and the problem lies in what has been and I think very accurately described...not getting enough or more money in the most hands...called 'dollar velocity.'

If 80 % of a tax cut goes to 100 people and 20% of a tax cut go to 10,000 people, there is little left for the 10,000 to actually cause an increase in demand...increase in dollar velocity which is what does increase demand.

The 100 may increase their demand but insufficient to profoundly effect society at large or tax revenues.





MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:12:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Enough about college and what the professors are supposed to 'teach' us. Reason is sufficient particularly for economics, it being a science without technology.


You are entitled to your opinion no matter how ignorant,unsubstantiated or ill informed it may be.
You wish to inflict your ignorance on this board by the artifice of telling how wrong something, you do not understand, is.
Perhaps if you actually knew the definitions of the words you are using your post would not appear so childish.
But:
You do not care what the words actually mean you just want to snivel about getting fucked in the wallet by the banksters and blame it on the party that you do not belong to.


Patently and obviously incorrect, I have in fact defined words and more than sufficiently to fully explain my problem with the ridiculously simplified term...econ 101, or supply-side or.....?

It always puts a smile on my face when posters suggest another posters general ignorance without specifying just exactly where the problem exists. If I am so lacking and 'ill-defined'...I am all eyes for your next webinar on econ 101.




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:16:29 AM)

I am so glad to see a sincere effort on both sides to educate each other. I have planned a thread that I've put off on the history of economics.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:34:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually, you mean did Ugg have success, and modern examples suggest "no."

You then go on to again conflate issues. Taxes are a fiscal matter. Monetary systems are another.

Monetary issues are caused by the existence of a world-wide regime of paper-money and without foundation.

A return to gold backed or silver certificate, i.e., treasury currency would upset the modern world of debt which is what we live in and result in a monumental decrease in the supply of money which is arbitrarily regulated by the central banks, and in whose interest.

All money is a fiscal matter isn't it ? Govt's fiscal matter and how it's consumption effects or doesn't society at large...is the question.

One example would be, if taking about 1 of every 5 dollars and giving it to the pentagon and CIA (which we do) would create real demand, we'd have more jobs than applicants. If taking the next dollar of 6 several of which is wasted on so-called health care....the same could be said about creating further demand.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:45:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I am so glad to see a sincere effort on both sides to educate each other. I have planned a thread that I've put off on the history of economics.

Yet, but also just as important...the 'History of economics education.' I have known several college professors and various PHD's in my life and a professor of economics from Georgetown Univ. told me that m2 through m5 is professorial bullshit to justify old PHD's.

If one must use M1 then we will and according to him and others...the only real measure of what is actually available to fulfill demand and create jobs.

Another professor told me when I read or listen...beware of their jargon (their own lexicon designed to obscure) and footnotes, that would require a lengthy and eventually very tiresome research endeavor to seek yet another professor's justification for whatever the footnote referred.




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 9:59:56 AM)

I have noticed that liberal arguments often make an appeal to mathematics. In general mathematical reasoning denies the existence of moral action and related notions such as duty and free will. This is something I illustrated in my Why ObamaCare might work thread. This was also something that was indirectly pointed out in my Sleep of Reason thread. The Erosion of Progress by Religions video pointed out that the Arab enlightenment was halted by those who were concerned that mathematics was sorcery. For the aforementioned reasons, there is reason to believe that mathematics is sorcery. Personally, this, however, creates a dilemma for me. If mathematics is sorcery, then I am a sorcerer.




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 10:13:40 AM)

Consequently, it is not surprising if some of the pro free will math arguments may not be entirely sound since mathematics does not lend itself in general to such problems. It is the wrong tool.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 10:20:45 AM)

fast reply

Please enjoy a bit of fun from Ray Stevens regarding taxes.

Then carry on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQc_WPUCE-o




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 10:24:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I am so glad to see a sincere effort on both sides to educate each other. I have planned a thread that I've put off on the history of economics.

Yet, but also just as important...the 'History of economics education.' I have known several college professors and various PHD's in my life and a professor of economics from Georgetown Univ. told me that m2 through m5 is professorial bullshit to justify old PHD's.

If one must use M1 then we will and according to him and others...the only real measure of what is actually available to fulfill demand and create jobs.

Another professor told me when I read or listen...beware of their jargon (their own lexicon designed to obscure) and footnotes, that would require a lengthy and eventually very tiresome research endeavor to seek yet another professor's justification for whatever the footnote referred.


I hear you. A solid education requires a lot of hard work. The amount of work involved can be so great that you can grow hard and scornful of those who have not put in the time. Here is an example of a man who has taken his education seriously.

Brian Goldman: Doctors make mistakes. Can we talk about that?
http://www.ted.com/talks/brian_goldman_doctors_make_mistakes_can_we_talk_about_that.html

We need more men and women like Brian Goldman; brave, hard working.




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