RE: Why do we fear taxes? (Full Version)

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MrRodgers -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 10:26:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Not to hijack but I do believe along with many bloggers and students, what is taught in college is often designed to fit into an agenda...political and therefore, private business.

For example, there is nothing at all in econo 101 that would explain a single govt. insurance program for retail bank deposits (FDIC) and in fact would in itself represent a bastardization of the balance of economic research and economic forces as we've added govt. force or influence. The same goes for other contributions and subtractions involving the govt.'s effect on economy.

For another example, I've heard and read that the definition of m2-m5 are only there to justify the so-called science behind the 4 new doctoral thesis of decades ago and actually has little or no effect on either M1 (cash) or econ 101.

If one goes to the classes, it involves at least according to the ones I've found...almost every decision made involving money. I completely disagree. For example, college courses have may still teach that 6% UNemployment is FULL employment.

Let's wrap our heads around that one. At 8% now it is bad, but putting a couple more million to work would be it kinkroids...FULL employment. Now does that fit your political or economic agenda ? No ? Then what, did you get an F in econ 101` ? Econ 101...6% Unemployed IS full employment.


Well your first problem is that you aren't at all dealing with facts or reality, but with your beliefs and fantasies about what happens in an Econ 101 class.

You then jump to discussion of agenda driven points not at all in Econ 101. FDIC is a reality of finance, not economics. Your war on the Ms is unnecessary -- Econ 101 is going to cover M1 and M2. You are entirely making up the 8% full employment number. It's a debatable number, but generally 5% is accepted.

What IS covered in Econ 101 are the basics of supply and demand, aggregate supply and aggregate demand, markets, and understanding of what the Fed does (not whether it should), how the money multiplier works, what the GDP and GNP numbers mean and where we get them, generic stuff like that.

What we should DO about any of that is in Political Science class.

Back to ancient history and taxes -- you're wrong on that as well. Taxes are as old as civilization itself, literally.

The FDIC has completely and to society's painful awareness...taken finance out of the free market. It creates a new Orwellian financial disposition that banks...cannot go...bankrupt. Talk about the meaning of words.

The so-called reality of the FDIC wasn't real...until FDR and this country did fine without it until him.

To the extent that Lincoln's successors failed to stick to a national industrial bank and a single federal (treasury) currency, caused the country to revert back to corrupt state banks and simply reflects the inherent corruption of totally private banking and their corrupt design of issuing their own currencies.

Your generics are another man's mystery...often deliberate. For example, GDP includes financial transactions which is neither production or necessarily a beneficial aspect of the economy. We can show a higher GDP simply through higher debt.

As for the casual capitalist sycophantic, if the economy is so successful over the last say 100 years since the fed's creation, why has debt service gone from 6% of national wealth (1960) to 30% of national wealth ? (2010)

Why can't I buy a typical single family home and pay for it in about 6 years as it was back in the late 1800's ? Why has my rent gone from $12-$15 a month for a typical row house...a fraction of my WEEKLY pay to almost 1/2 of my monthly income ? Using medians as far as we can go back, the American worker has been getting poorer and poorer and further in debt since the formation of the fed.

I and many others believe the GDP number is a deliberate attempt to suggest that the bigger the number including banking and merely financial transactions, the higher economic growth which of course is not true at all.

Profits yes, but not economic growth. In fact, higher profits does not signal economic growth at all. Is all of that in my econ 101 class ? Does econ 101 explain why the fortune 1000 has not created 1 net new job in over 50 years ?

Does econ 101 explain why armed with the greatest technological breakthrough of the 20 century, the airline industry still in about 100 years...yes, STILL has not made a dime ?

Does econ 101 explain why we've had 2000% inflation since the fed ?

Please, enough of as I say, the jargon and the footnotes. I look at history and what has actually happened. Not some grandiose theories from some fancy text book.




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 10:52:14 AM)

Given a superficial examination of what you wrote, you seem to think that the actors were evil. What the bankers gave us, give us makes some sense. I cannot see how it is pure rubbish. Wealthy men understand money in a way us poor folk do not because they have lots of it. I heard the reason why the bankers insisted on creating the Federal Reserve is because historically governments cannot be trusted. It is easy to be a critic and hard to know the truth. We cannot settle on knowing our theory. We must know their theory.




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 11:02:46 AM)

quote:

Does econ 101 explain why armed with the greatest technological breakthrough of the 20 century, the airline industry still in about 100 years...yes, STILL has not made a dime ?


I was unaware that there was a company/corp called "the airline industry".
There are many airlines that make tons of money for their shareholders and pay wages to their employees.




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 11:05:14 AM)

quote:

Please, enough of as I say, the jargon and the footnotes. I look at history and what has actually happened. Not some grandiose theories from some fancy text book.


Which grandiose theories from which text book?




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 11:13:20 AM)

This is something that I loath to do, but I need to put a certain someone on ignore. How is this done?




Moonhead -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 11:22:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

This is something that I loath to do, but I need to put a certain someone on ignore. How is this done?

The hide button underneath their avatar.




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 11:23:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

This is something that I loath to do, but I need to put a certain someone on ignore. How is this done?


Do we have to hold your hand and spoon feed you everything?
Your profile says you are a dom...put on your big boy pants and man up.
Learn how to do something for yourself.





BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 11:28:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

This is something that I loath to do, but I need to put a certain someone on ignore. How is this done?

The hide button underneath their avatar.


Thanks Moonhead.




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 12:30:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Why can't I buy a typical single family home and pay for it in about 6 years as it was back in the late 1800's ? Why has my rent gone from $12-$15 a month for a typical row house...a fraction of my WEEKLY pay to almost 1/2 of my monthly income ? Using medians as far as we can go back, the American worker has been getting poorer and poorer and further in debt since the formation of the fed.


Perhaps the problem has to do with our resources becoming spread increasingly thin. A lot has happened since the formation of the fed. Maybe the fed is a victim of its own success. At one time land was plentiful.




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 12:40:52 PM)

At one time not only land was plentiful, but the building materials, timber in particular, were plentiful. At one time all you had to do to acquire the necessary timber for your log cabin was walk out your front door in the morning and do some chopping. All the timber you needed was right there.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:18:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Supply-side is just another term to justify a very specious theory that to lower tax rates...increases tax receipts. The former was tried and the latter never happened, therefore so-called supply-side is in fact...a ridiculous theory.


You're conflating two ideas here. Yes, supply-side was used to justify the Lauffer curve (and then the Reagan team merely assumed we were at or past the mid-point; clearly we weren't), but that causal theory has been shown inaccurate, but you then call that theory supply-side. They aren't the same. Certainly we can move the aggregate supply curve, and certainly that effects markets. It's the "trickle down" nonsense that Reaganomics was selling, and that's not part of the supply-side model (just sold as such).

I can go with this and the problem lies in what has been and I think very accurately described...not getting enough or more money in the most hands...called 'dollar velocity.'

If 80 % of a tax cut goes to 100 people and 20% of a tax cut go to 10,000 people, there is little left for the 10,000 to actually cause an increase in demand...increase in dollar velocity which is what does increase demand.

The 100 may increase their demand but insufficient to profoundly effect society at large or tax revenues.



Close. Velocity is how quickly money is changing hands--whose hands and how many hands aren't a factor.

Where you're going with it, though, is correct. It's what an economy is. Resources are flowing effectively. And a vibrant, prosperous middle class is a market--read, customers.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:21:47 PM)

quote:

Does econ 101 explain why . . .


No. Of course not. That's my point--the rants about political agenda in Econ 101 are pure fantasy. Nothing of the sort is taught in Econ 101. First, it's not the place for a political agenda, and second, it's 101--basic stuff.

Now Economics 498 -- probably addresses issues as well. But I doubt in a selling an agenda way, but rather, examining the different major positions and their implications.




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:24:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Why can't I buy a typical single family home and pay for it in about 6 years as it was back in the late 1800's ? Why has my rent gone from $12-$15 a month for a typical row house...a fraction of my WEEKLY pay to almost 1/2 of my monthly income ? Using medians as far as we can go back, the American worker has been getting poorer and poorer and further in debt since the formation of the fed.


Perhaps the problem has to do with our resources becoming spread increasingly thin. A lot has happened since the formation of the fed. Maybe the fed is a victim of its own success. At one time land was plentiful.



How much land do you want?
Less than ten miles from me there is 40 acres $45,000, frontage on black top two lane rd. Property is flat and level and currently has alfalfa growing on it. This property is less than 100 miles the north of the los angeles harbor.




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:28:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
At one time all you had to do to acquire the necessary timber for your log cabin was walk out your front door in the morning and do some chopping. All the timber you needed was right there.


If already have a house with a front door why would you want to build a log cabin?




thompsonx -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:34:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
At one time all you had to do to acquire the necessary timber for your log cabin was walk out your front door in the morning and do some chopping. All the timber you needed was right there.


If you already have a house with a front door why would you want to build a log cabin?





Musicmystery -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:37:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Why can't I buy a typical single family home and pay for it in about 6 years as it was back in the late 1800's ?


Well for starters, the 1890s was a severe depression in the U.S., second only to the Great Depression of the 1930s.

In in 1890, the average worker made $1.53 per day for 279 days per year for a total of $479 for the year. Today, the average worker makes $51,413. That's 107 times higher. The average house costs $242,300 (varying greatly by location, of course). But the housing cost index from 1890 to today is only 55 times higher, from 100 to 5500.

[image]http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/assets_c/2011/03/RealHousingPrices_1890_2010_log-thumb-570x406-45789.png[/image]

How did people pay them off in six years? They didn't.

The black line, incidentally, is housing growth adjusted for inflation. Essentially flat.




Real0ne -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:43:15 PM)

what dont you get about the devaluation of money that results in rising prices NOT the other way around? We went over this and you conceded your position so how do you plan on justifying your post to any "reasonable" and educated person out here?




mnottertail -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 1:46:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

what dont you get about the devaluation of money that results in rising prices NOT the other way around? We went over this and you conceded your position so how do you plan on justifying your post to any "reasonable" and educated person out here?


What dont you get about English language and reality, cause and effect, well, fucking near anything is the real issue, don't portray yourself as reasonable or educated, for fucks sake, to a man we know that to be pure prevarication. 




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 2:00:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

the average worker made


I think this is where your argument could be weak. Has the distribution of wealth changed much? For example, corporate executives did not make nearly as much as they do today not long ago.




BenevolentM -> RE: Why do we fear taxes? (7/20/2012 2:05:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

what dont you get about the devaluation of money that results in rising prices NOT the other way around? We went over this and you conceded your position so how do you plan on justifying your post to any "reasonable" and educated person out here?


People who are on a fixed income are more vulnerable to inflation since may not be getting the usual yearly pay raise. People with large caches of paper money hidden in their mattress are vulnerable to the effects of inflation as well.




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