RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives?

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 12:00:18 PM

Fp4

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quote:

I don't have the right to kill someone. I have the right to own a weapon to defend my life. There's a huge difference.

I love <sarcasm> the theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

It's fine to defend yourself in your home. In the open it's too risky, not everybody is properly trained. In the case you mention a man could easily get her gun and use it against her.

< Message edited by Fp4 -- 7/24/2012 12:07:25 PM >

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 1:17:44 PM

Musicmystery

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A study of NYC police officers showed that in pressure situations, officers hit their targets 1/3 of the time.

These are highly trained professionals. It's pure fantasy that random civilians would do better.

Even military training doesn't necessarily help--one of the first problems we had in Iraq was that troops weren't trained in the type of peace-keeping policing needed, completely different from their combat training.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/24/2012 1:19:04 PM >

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 1:20:54 PM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

A study of NYC police officers showed that in pressure situations, officers hit their targets 1/3 of the time.

These are highly trained professionals. It's pure fantasy that random civilians would do better.

Professionals, I'll grant you. Highly trained? Well, they'd love it if everyone believed that.

Unless they do it on their own time, police do a LOT less shooting than a lot of civilians. Unfortunately, a lot of them qualify on the range when they have to and that's about it.

ETA, wanna bet which officers were the third and which ones did a nice imitation of Elmer Fudd?

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 7/24/2012 1:22:48 PM >

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 1:23:18 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

police do a LOT less shooting than a lot of civilians

That's hardly the same as civilian training equaling police training.

Shooting isn't the issue--it's the situation. Military folk do enough shooting...and yet had to be retrained before they could do the peace-keeping work in Iraq. Civilians who like to shoot don't come with this training at all, however many hours they've burned through shells.

Shooting under stress is something else again.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 1:29:19 PM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

police do a LOT less shooting than a lot of civilians

That's hardly the same as civilian training equaling police training.

Shooting isn't the issue--it's the situation. Military folk do enough shooting...and yet had to be retrained before they could do the peace-keeping work in Iraq. Civilians who like to shoot don't come with this training at all, however many hours they've burned through shells.

Shooting under stress is something else again.

MM. that's my point. After the academy, a lot of cops do nothing but go to the range a few times a year and shoot at a target to qualify.
They are not what I would refer to as "highly trained"
I worked with them on hand to hand at one time. They aren't highly trained there either but they do a LOT more of that than shooting.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 2:05:51 PM

Musicmystery

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And the civilians are no better trained.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 2:15:40 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fp4

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fp4

I've been living in the US for almost a year and I still don't get how some americans consider carrying a gun a right.

Because it is a right. It says so right in our Constitution. Our founding fathers believed that citizens have the right defend themselves.

No kidding! I know that. I meant that I don't get how being able to kill somebody can be considered a right.

I don't have the right to kill someone. I have the right to own a weapon to defend my life. There's a huge difference.

I love <sarcasm> the theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

Would it be fair to say that you don't believe in owning a gun to kill someone but to keepthem from killing you?

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 2:30:11 PM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the civilians are no better trained.

Some are, some arent. My point is that a majority of police are not "highly trained professionals" as you put it.
They have training but some civilians (especially vets) are much better. Most are worse but you shouldn't generalize.
Ive seen a 135# civilian go thru a "highly trained" SWAT team like a chain saw thru styrofoam and those guys were supposedly the best of the best.
It's the same with firearms. Cops aren't necessarily capable beyond punching paper a coupla times a year and some civilians are VERY capable.
People are individuals and shouldn't be generalized and lumped.
Police officers are human beings. They have the same wants, needs, fears and vices as the rest of us. They aren't supermen. They're mostly just regular guys and gals who have a tough job to do.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 2:34:34 PM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the civilians are no better trained.

And therein lies MY beef with a bunch of morons running around with guns declaring they are for self defense. Including many of my family members and neighbours. Who I know for a god damned fact would freak the fuck out when put in a real life situation where they had to make a split second decision to 'defend'.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 2:46:29 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the civilians are no better trained.

Some are, some arent. My point is that a majority of police are not "highly trained professionals" as you put it.
They have training but some civilians (especially vets) are much better. Most are worse but you shouldn't generalize.
Ive seen a 135# civilian go thru a "highly trained" SWAT team like a chain saw thru styrofoam and those guys were supposedly the best of the best.
It's the same with firearms. Cops aren't necessarily capable beyond punching paper a coupla times a year and some civilians are VERY capable.
People are individuals and shouldn't be generalized and lumped.
Police officers are human beings. They have the same wants, needs, fears and vices as the rest of us. They aren't supermen. They're mostly just regular guys and gals who have a tough job to do.

And NONE of this nit-picking changes the point...in a pressure situation, police aren't great shots, and civilians aren't going to be any better, and as they (1) DON'T typically have this kind of training, are likely to perform worse.

Civilians are just human beings too. Arming them doesn't make them a magically trained militia.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 4:21:19 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Killing someone isn't a right. Who told you it was?

The whack jobs who read this into their fantasies about why the Second Amendment was written.

Well in that case, maybe he should stop listening to the whack jobs. Problem solved.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 4:41:04 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the civilians are no better trained.

Some are, some arent. My point is that a majority of police are not "highly trained professionals" as you put it.
They have training but some civilians (especially vets) are much better. Most are worse but you shouldn't generalize.
Ive seen a 135# civilian go thru a "highly trained" SWAT team like a chain saw thru styrofoam and those guys were supposedly the best of the best.
It's the same with firearms. Cops aren't necessarily capable beyond punching paper a coupla times a year and some civilians are VERY capable.
People are individuals and shouldn't be generalized and lumped.
Police officers are human beings. They have the same wants, needs, fears and vices as the rest of us. They aren't supermen. They're mostly just regular guys and gals who have a tough job to do.

I agree completly, when in high school I regularly went shooting with local cops (my dad was on the force) and routinly out shot most of them. Later when an admen guy at our sheriffs office (different state) I out shot about 75-80% of the officers. And I know a bunch of civilians who can outshoot me.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 4:46:52 PM

hardcybermaster

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but the point is that if loads of people have guns the majority of them have no clue and will shot randomly and badly, what's the outcome going to be then?

More dead people

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 5:22:35 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And the civilians are no better trained.

And therein lies MY beef with a bunch of morons running around with guns declaring they are for self defense. Including many of my family members and neighbours. Who I know for a god damned fact would freak the fuck out when put in a real life situation where they had to make a split second decision to 'defend'.

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 5:24:26 PM

mnottertail

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No fringe on that flag, no maritime law, therefore no water to put that nonsense out, eh?

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 5:34:44 PM

Real0ne

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fringe is an executive office flag

the official flag of the us is described in title 4 I think and it has no fringe

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/24/2012 5:36:34 PM >

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 5:36:22 PM

KYsissy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

but the point is that if loads of people have guns the majority of them have no clue and will shot randomly and badly, what's the outcome going to be then?

More dead people

It is one thing to shoot at paper targets. Quite another when the targets return fire. The latest wingnut. As far as I can tell had no combat experience. It is quite conceivable that a few rounds aimed in his general direction, even poorly aimed rounds, would have caused him to tuck tail and run. At the very least, the realization that he is not the only one armed would change his focus from cold blooded killing with ease to a more defensive posture. He would not be able to strut around and kill people with impunity.

Some covering fire aimed high might have worked wonders.

< Message edited by KYsissy -- 7/24/2012 5:43:09 PM >

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 5:42:51 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy
It is quite conceivable that a few rounds aimed in his general direction, even poorly aimed rounds, would have caused him to tuck tail and run.

And it's at least equally conceivable that they wouldn't given that he was wearing body armour.
Maybe we should restage the incident and tool up a few children in the audience to clarify this?

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 5:48:19 PM

KYsissy

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Body armor prevents penetration. It does not prevent broken ribs, a lot of pain and being knocked on your ass from the impact

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RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? - 7/24/2012 5:53:34 PM

Moonhead

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Right.
So who in the concealed carry state where people have a right to wander around tooled up shot him, then?

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