RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (Full Version)

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JohnWarren -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 11:53:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperatusMasculs

Political Correctness through true consideration of the feelings that certain words and images convey is not disingenuous in the least.  It is called Respect.  "Acting" Politically Correct is very dangerous, as in you have already admitted that you do not mean what you sayYou are "acting" in order to fit in, seeking approval from others.

Which are you?

Michael


[Words in response highlighted to make a point.]

It seems you have already decided which I am.

On the other hand, you seem to be an ass, a shithole and a liar because I'm made no assertion I write anything other than I believe.  I think those who have been reading my posts are more than aware of that.




meatcleaver -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 11:55:45 AM)

It's just a gross generalisation to accuse everyone that has a problem with political correctness as being a racist or a fascist. Many people don't see political correctness as a solution to the problem of extreme behaviour. Driving people underground is not solving a problem as the problem doesn't go away. Political correctness and the idea that curtailing language can solve a social problem is a nonsense.




RiotGirl -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 11:58:53 AM)

quote:

It's my feeling that it is those who are complaining on people being "politically correct" are usually the liars, racists and abusers. They seem to want the right to let their hatred flow freely and not be called on it because they are "just being honest." Frankly, they can be honest all they want but they should limit their diatribes to their fellow members of the Aryan Nation, Nazi Party, Klan or other like minded "honest" souls.

How's that for being "honest" or am I to be accused of further "political correctness."


yer accused of NOT being PC.. how dare.  Just because its "generally" true doesnt make it always true.  Just because it comes out of your mouth.. doesnt make it right either.  Your perspective.. neither right or wrong.. which you seem to know as you said "its my feeling"  BUT well..

Sure they're honest too.. good for them.  yay!  Atleast when one starts to date.. you'll know up front who you're dealing with instead of 4 years down the line when the KKK is holding a meeting in your basement and you some how stumble upon it.  Personally.. i'd rather run into a brutally honest Nazis member..  then run into some one who is completely PC and doesnt give off any notice of it.. and have to basically run into it at a later time.

Always best to know straight up upfront.  Dont you think John?

honesty always works out better in the end




BitaTruble -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:06:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I don't see any need to be PC around liars, racists, abusers.. etc. Who the hell are we trying to protect the feelings of when we do that? Liars, racists and abusers. Yeah, I want to help them feel better.


It's my feeling that it is those who are complaining on people being "politically correct" are usually the liars, racists and abusers.  They seem to want the right to let their hatred flow freely and not be called on it because they are "just being honest."  Frankly, they can be honest all they want but they should limit their diatribes to their fellow members of the Aryan Nation, Nazi Party, Klan or other like minded "honest" souls.

How's that for being "honest" or am I to be accused of further "political correctness."


::shrugs:: You're entitled to your opinion and if you think people like me are 'usually' the liars, the racists or the abusers because I think it's all bullshit, so be it. It'll be the first time in my life I've ever been accused of any of those things. The Aryan nation wouldn't accept someone of my particular color, I'm married to a man who's Jewish so I doubt the Nazi's are going to want me and the Klan is going to turn down any application I may make for the same reason as the Aryan nation. Wrong genetic make-up and all that. You want to be PC, more power to you. I choose to call it like I see it and I keep the white sheets for my bed, not my head.

If this is what you got from my post, I think you're a bit myopic.

Celeste




Chaingang -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:09:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
"Political correctness" (like "family values") was invented by the right wing as a way of diverting attention away from real issues like prejudice, bigotry, and racial insensitivity.  It was never intended to be a real issue.  It was a red herring from the start.  We were all supposed to get very upset at those liberals who were forcing us to change our vocabulary and watch the way we speak--instead of working together to solve problems of discrimination and inequality that still plague this country.


The use of the term "political correctness" is indicative of the desire to be intolerant. Anyone that says they dislike "political correctness" is appealing for some wiggle room to say something intolerant.

I skimmed the thread and somewhere someone compared the terms "goat fucker" to "animal lover" and claimed they statements were equal. Well, call me crazy but "goat fucker" sounds like a term of disparagement at the very least and taken literally means someone that has sex with goats. The word "fucker" is a term of disparagement. By contrast, "animal lover" most probably just means someone that has high regard for animals. The word "lover" in that context is probably indicative of an emotional relationship and not a sexual one. Context, and how a phrase is normally understood, matters!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kidsphoenixx
When natural laws are overruled by man-made laws....that society is doomed. Add PC to the growing list of those man-made rules.


"Natural law" almost always favors diversity. So I fail to see your point entirely.

This thread reminded of this:
"Conservative Books for Dummies: Becoming a Conservative Author in Eight Easy Steps"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennet-kelley/conservative-books-for-du_b_22600.html




BitaTruble -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:11:59 PM)

quote:



I skimmed the thread and somewhere someone compared the terms "goat fucker" to "animal lover" and claimed they statements were equal. Well, call me crazy but "goat fucker" sounds like a term of disparagement at the very least and taken literally means someone that has sex with goats. The word "fucker" is a term of disparagement. By contrast, "animal lover" most probably just means someone that has high regard for animals. The word "lover" in that context is probably indicative of an emotional relationship and not a sexual one. Context, and how a phrase is normally understood, matters!




That was my point. If someone is a goat fucker, calling them an animal lover changes the meaning of what you're saying.

Celeste




Slipstreme -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:13:13 PM)

quote:

if some one is whipping your ass you are not a Dom, period!


Begin Rant>

Am I the only one here who finds this comment wrong?

I've seen plenty of discussion on the slave/sub vs bottom, but what of the Dominant masochist or Dominant sadomasochist? Yes we do exist, and our preference for pain inflicted verses inflicting (or a miz of both) has no bearing on what D/s orientation we have outside of scene. I am a Dominant sadomasochist, and my slightly higher preference for the business end of the whip does not change that. As has seemed to be said in several previous threads on semantics in BDSM, it comes down to your definitions on what is, and what isn't and who has control of the relationship, not just the toys.

Besides, let people enjoy their self imposed labels. It is when they affect you and you find out that they aren't who you believed they were that any of this labels BS should become an issue. It all comes down to knowing who you are talking to, before anything serious happens.  

Although the same thing can be said of "Dominants" who are scene only. Wouldn't that make them Tops? And agreeing with TNstepsout, what is wrong with people preferring their S&M over D/s? Nothing. They might just not have the mindset to be able to be a Dom or sub. This whole "we are better than you" crap needs to be dropped when dealing with people who are vanilla and kinky, or simply vanillas in general. It is enough trouble trying to be who you are, but to be elitist as well? Nilla or otherwise, people are people period. No one way is better than the other.

<End Rant

Anyway, its been a while since I was flogged last. I think I shall see about getting it done :P




CreativeDominant -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:15:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I don't see any need to be PC around liars, racists, abusers.. etc. Who the hell are we trying to protect the feelings of when we do that? Liars, racists and abusers. Yeah, I want to help them feel better.


It's my feeling that it is those who are complaining on people being "politically correct" are usually the liars, racists and abusers. They seem to want the right to let their hatred flow freely and not be called on it because they are "just being honest." Frankly, they can be honest all they want but they should limit their diatribes to their fellow members of the Aryan Nation, Nazi Party, Klan or other like minded "honest" souls.

How's that for being "honest" or am I to be accused of further "political correctness."


Funny how expression of what you really feel is considered "hatred" when it doesn't agree with what others think...or isn't as "sensitive" as they would like it to be.

I've stated before that I think a person can be honest without being tactless. But, no matter how tactfully I express an opinion...someone is going to disagree with it. At that point, why not be clear with your expression?

Tell me, how tolerant and understanding and politically correct and O. K. is it when someone (bitatrouble...or anyone expressing a problem with P.C. behavior for that manner) expresses their viewpoint in a way that you disagree with and now, they are told by you that they are a member of the Aryan Nation, the KKK, and other like-minded souls? How are your name-calling accusations any different? Because they come from someone who, the majority of the time, preaches tolerance to others? [8|]





Proprietrix -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:20:31 PM)


(Fast reply)
Oh man. The more of this thread I read, the more confused I’m getting about what the topic at hand is.
I see where TwiceHappy and Shifted Jewel are coming from.
However, I absolutely do not see this as a PC issue.
I see it as an issue of language.

As long as we are each individually walking around making up meanings to words, instead of sticking to universally understood definitions, we are going to continue to have miscommunication.

I see a LOT of people on here who want to waltz around the semantic ballroom with their self-written dictionary, citing sources of other lone dancers with their self-written dictionaries, justifying this and that for themselves because it feels good.

I dared to say on here once that if a person is fucking both women and men, they are bisexual. I was met with precisely this semantic ballroom dictionary dancing, about how sexual service this and obedience to one’s master that, and sex isn’t sex, it’s actually submission, and sucking someone’s genitals isn’t a sexual act, it’s an act of compliance, and on and on. I expected Monica and Bill to pop up any second and tell me it depended on what my definition of the word "is" is.

It didn’t change my perspective of bisexual one little bit. It also didn’t change the fact that most of society defines someone who has sex with both men and women as bisexuals. Just because they personally don’t conform to generally understood definitions, it didn’t change those generally understood definitions. All it really did is make those particular bisexual people appear as if they didn’t understand the majority definition of bisexuality. It made them appear as if they were in denial.

Really, collarme forums are much different than most BDSM communities I’ve seen. Until stepping into the realm of collarme, I never saw people tearing apart the language we use and accept on a daily basis. Everyone else out there "gets it" that most definitions of words are generally understood. Most groups outside of collarchat, have a general understanding of Master, Mistress, Dominant, submissive, slave, Top, bottom, heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, service, S&M, ownership, property, kinky, sex, and every other word we use in conversation. This is the only place I’ve spent time where I see people making up their own definitions for words and expecting everyone to do the same and have mutual respect for each person’s self-proclaimed definition.

It makes communication extremely difficult when we don’t share a common language. Part of sharing a common language is that we share an understanding of what words mean. I can’t talk about my brown cat if everyone I’m talking to has their own definitions of the words I’m using. Some people say brown means red, or brown means sofa, or brown means coffee, or brown means polish. And some people say cat means child, or cat means hair brush, or cat means camera. And some say that "brown cat" is stereotyping animals. How can I possibly talk about my brown cat when everyone is making up self-satisfying definitions about something that used to be a universally understood concept?

It’s no different when I want to talk about a "submissive" instead of a "brown cat". I simply can’t have a conversation about something if 30 different people are making up 30 different self-satisfying definitions of the subject that used to be a universally understood concept.

In reality, once I log off collarme, that universal understanding is still in place and very much as firm as it was. I can log on a different BDSM website, and generally, people understand what I’m talking about when I use the terms that were oh-so-confusing here on collarme. I can go to damn near any munch group within a day’s drive and everybody has a general understanding of the terms we use in this lifestyle. There are no semantical debates. There is no dictionary fetching. There is no tearing apart the language to make up definitions that work for the individual.

When I see someone doing the political two-step with dictionary.com and quoting someone who quoted someone who once said in a book they happened to publish that statistics show that .001% of people who "fuck" aren’t really "fucking" at all….
I really begin to wonder about people’s ability to comprehend simple language.
Most of the time I walk away from collarme thinking "Damn. Those folks really live in a different universe than the rest of us."
They have a word for that. It’s not political correctness. It’s schizophrenia.

You can dance with your dictionary all day long to justify what you think reality might be. It doesn’t change what reality is to the majority around you. You can call your car green all day long, but so long as the rest of us see a red car, we’re not going to buy into your personal definition of the word green. Reality, according to the majority, is that the car is red. You can make up your self-satisfying definitions of color all day long and it won’t change the facts.

The rest of the world simply takes you as they see you. You’re fucking someone, therefore you’re having sex. You’re a man giving another man a blowjob, therefore you’re either gay or bi.
The rest of the world doesn’t care what you call it.

Reality defined by the majority trumps individually imposed definitions.
Um… except on collarme.




Chaingang -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:22:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
That was my point. If someone is a goat fucker, calling them an animal lover changes the meaning of what you're saying.


I guess I don't get what you're saying there because you use examples I don't understand. Offhand I can't think of the supposedly "pc" terms for "liars, racists and abusers." Those all seem like the correct terms to me, presuming they are applied to cases that fit their respective definitions.

Speaking your mind is one thing. Telling the truth is another thing. Engaging in purposefully hurtful rhetoric is a third thing.

Which are you championing?




darkinshadows -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:37:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slipstreme

quote:

if some one is whipping your ass you are not a Dom, period!


Begin Rant>

Am I the only one here who finds this comment wrong?

I've seen plenty of discussion on the slave/sub vs bottom, but what of the Dominant masochist or Dominant sadomasochist? Yes we do exist, and our preference for pain inflicted verses inflicting (or a miz of both) has no bearing on what D/s orientation we have outside of scene. I am a Dominant sadomasochist, and my slightly higher preference for the business end of the whip does not change that. As has seemed to be said in several previous threads on semantics in BDSM, it comes down to your definitions on what is, and what isn't and who has control of the relationship, not just the toys.

Besides, let people enjoy their self imposed labels. It is when they affect you and you find out that they aren't who you believed they were that any of this labels BS should become an issue. It all comes down to knowing who you are talking to, before anything serious happens.  

Although the same thing can be said of "Dominants" who are scene only. Wouldn't that make them Tops? And agreeing with TNstepsout, what is wrong with people preferring their S&M over D/s? Nothing. They might just not have the mindset to be able to be a Dom or sub. This whole "we are better than you" crap needs to be dropped when dealing with people who are vanilla and kinky, or simply vanillas in general. It is enough trouble trying to be who you are, but to be elitist as well? Nilla or otherwise, people are people period. No one way is better than the other.

<End Rant

Anyway, its been a while since I was flogged last. I think I shall see about getting it done :P

Well, It wasn't a good statement (highlighted)for me to read and I disagreed with it - but I wouldnt say it was wrong - just wrong for me.
 
Now if my statement is seen as being politically correct - thats bollocks imo.  I am not being politically correct if I say its all down to personal choice.  PC is a calculated language that provides minimum offense.  There is something insidious about the term 'PC' - it isnt just to provide minimum offense - it is a 'state approved' language that infringes on the rights of people to be what they want to be.  Saying that all doms that enjoy being whipped on occasion isnt being anti PC - it's being an arse and not understanding, nor wishing to understand a persons personal point of view and personal circumstances.  Its called being blinkered.  It's like saying that just because you were born a man you should automatically be attracted to women.  But we know that this just isnt the case.  There is more to attraction than just opposite sex... there is more to being a dominant that purely being on the handle end of the whip... there is more to being nigerian, than being black.
 
Peace and Rapture
 




marieToo -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:39:42 PM)

Fast Reply:

Right now Im only labeled as "twisted". But Im not really fucking twisted, Im just bent sideways.   I hope the fuck I get tired of being a part of this dysfunctional bullshit before I get one of those "deranged" labels over my name.   




BitaTruble -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 12:59:58 PM)

quote:



I guess I don't get what you're saying there because you use examples I don't understand. Offhand I can't think of the supposedly "pc" terms for "liars, racists and abusers." Those all seem like the correct terms to me, presuming they are applied to cases that fit their respective definitions.

Speaking your mind is one thing. Telling the truth is another thing. Engaging in purposefully hurtful rhetoric is a third thing.

Which are you championing?


If you can't tell, I guess I wasn't very clear in my statements.  I choose to call it like I see it  Have you seen me making posts where I've engaged in purposefully hurtful rhetoric or have you seen me make posts calling racists what they are.. racists.. and liars what they are .. liars? PC phrases for a racist: culturally challenged, that just his/her 'way', oh, that's just PeterPaulMary - s/he doesn't know any better.. that's how s/he was raised..   PC phrase for a liar: hiding the truth, being less than honest, the truth will damage the other person too much 
You've never seen these sorts of statements before? Celeste 




amayos -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 1:06:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Is Political Correctness affecting the bdsm community? The world at large?

As I read the threads here on Collarme I notice more and more those politically correct answers that have become the standard everywhere.

You know the ones I am talking about," I’m ok you’re ok; just play nice and everybody wins nobody loses; Johnny is not a pervert who eats his Master’s shit to get his rocks off he is a socially traumatized consumer of an unmentionable  human digestive by product  from his same gendered partner thereby gaining gratification in a degenerative fashion; you may call yourself a dom and just because your girlfriend whips your ass nightly does not mean you are a sub if you define yourself as a dom and that’s what that means to you then you are a dom and it’s  ok.”

So I went looking for commentary from various sources on the subject. I posted no credits to any individual, the sources were too numerous. I will state for the record the following statements are not mine.

So my question; Am I the only one who sees this? Does anybody agree with the quotes I found? Is political correctness making it damn near impossible to search for a lifestyle partner because everybody defines things the way they are comfortable with and everybody else is telling them it is ok to do so? Is it even affecting something so mundane as how we write a post it note for fear of offending someone?


Political correctness, unfortunately, is a social trait of humanity. When expressing "ourselves" we often do so with some variant of the collective opinion and not our own. What I find so curious is how political correctness so often does not honor the truth, but comforting lies we tell ourselves in order to get along. This trait exists in the BDSM subculture as surely as it exists elsewhere in society.




JohnWarren -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 1:16:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Tell me, how tolerant and understanding and politically correct and O. K. is it when someone (bitatrouble...or anyone expressing a problem with P.C. behavior for that manner) expresses their viewpoint in a way that you disagree with and now, they are told by you that they are a member of the Aryan Nation, the KKK, and other like-minded souls? How are your name-calling accusations any different? Because they come from someone who, the majority of the time, preaches tolerance to others? [8|]


But, gee, I was being told I shouldn't be politically correct.  You mean, one should be politically correct the way you want it but it stings when the honesty comes from another direction.

Sounds to me that the politically correct aren't the only hypocrites.




HollyS -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 1:23:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix
Reality defined by the majority trumps individually imposed definitions.
Um… except on collarme.



Wow, there's something I never thought I'd see on a BDSM posting board.  Current reality says that there is no such thing as consentual slavery.  What of the current majority that defines kinky as perverted?  Polyamory as sick and twisted?  Go back a few years to when African Americans were considered less than human by the majority.  Is my point unclear?

The "majority" has a long rich history of being painfully wrong on a wide range of issues.  Only sheep blindly follow the majority with the excuse that individual differences or definitions don't count.   Sheep.  People.  Sheeple.

You can't have it both ways.  Either you and you alone speak for yourself and your reality (as may every other human being for him or herself) or everyone may speak for everyone.  Be careful what you wish for.

~Holly




thetammyjo -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 1:23:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
That was my point. If someone is a goat fucker, calling them an animal lover changes the meaning of what you're saying.


I guess I don't get what you're saying there because you use examples I don't understand. Offhand I can't think of the supposedly "pc" terms for "liars, racists and abusers." Those all seem like the correct terms to me, presuming they are applied to cases that fit their respective definitions.

Speaking your mind is one thing. Telling the truth is another thing. Engaging in purposefully hurtful rhetoric is a third thing.

Which are you championing?



Oh, damn, you just made me think of Ann Coulter... now I need a bath.




thetammyjo -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 1:26:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:



I guess I don't get what you're saying there because you use examples I don't understand. Offhand I can't think of the supposedly "pc" terms for "liars, racists and abusers." Those all seem like the correct terms to me, presuming they are applied to cases that fit their respective definitions.

Speaking your mind is one thing. Telling the truth is another thing. Engaging in purposefully hurtful rhetoric is a third thing.

Which are you championing?


If you can't tell, I guess I wasn't very clear in my statements. I choose to call it like I see it Have you seen me making posts where I've engaged in purposefully hurtful rhetoric or have you seen me make posts calling racists what they are.. racists.. and liars what they are .. liars? PC phrases for a racist: culturally challenged, that just his/her 'way', oh, that's just PeterPaulMary - s/he doesn't know any better.. that's how s/he was raised.. PC phrase for a liar: hiding the truth, being less than honest, the truth will damage the other person too much
You've never seen these sorts of statements before? Celeste


Honestly I have never ever heard or read phrases like "Culturally challenged" you cite anywhere other than in attacks against this so-called "PC".

As for trying to be gender netural, I wish English had better choices. When I'm not being specific to a gender or a sex then why pretend I am by choosing only one term?




darkinshadows -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 1:29:11 PM)

quote:

PC phrase for a liar: hiding the truth, being less than honest, the truth will damage the other person too much


quote:

 
if some one is whipping your ass you are not a Dom, period!


quote:

He never makes me feel inferior, but he does remind me that Black men are superior to white men.


quote:

you and your black dominant ARE racist.


quote:

I don't argue with the quality of the man you are involved with, I don't know him but if it is his skin colour that affects you, you really need to examine what you are saying.

These are all recent quotes.  Which ones are deemed as PC - and which ones are 'just being honest'?
 
BDSM is an acronym - to me is isnt a Lifestyle it is what I practise and what I believe in.  Shifted (for example) talked about slaves - if we followed the notion that there is such a thing as slavery - then the BDSM definition is nothing but personal choice so technically there would be no such thing as slaves - male or female.  But for Shifted to hear that - how does She feel?  BDSM took a word and made it ITS OWN.  It said - fuck the definition in the dictionary - this is now what being a slave means. 
 
It is personal choice - its not wasting precious time with ill conceived ideas on what a definition is because people are unique.  It doesnt make a person less a slave or a sub because they don't fit your own precious ideal.
 
All comes down to the best quote ever - (IMO)
 
quote:

BDSM is about whatever I want it to be about.  If deep inside of me, I know the reason I want to submit is because of a racial issue, positive, negative, or zero value, then that's something I can't change. 
gooddogbenji

Peace and Rapture




Lordandmaster -> RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm community? (6/9/2006 2:02:57 PM)

You're kidding, right?  When the majority believed the earth was flat, did that mean the earth was really flat?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix

Reality defined by the majority trumps individually imposed definitions.




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