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climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 7:42:59 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Richard Muller with money from the Koch's has concluded that global warming is happening and it is caused by the human caused rise in CO2.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all
http://berkeleyearth.org/

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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 8:10:28 AM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Richard Muller with money from the Koch's has concluded that global warming is happening and it is caused by the human caused rise in CO2.


How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does.




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 8:12:06 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Did the cloud cover in those 250 respectively 50 years also increase?

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 8:16:27 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does.


This is really the bottom line, when the partisan/corporate shit stops.

Is there global warming? Yes.

Is it caused by industrialization? Maybe.

But also consider -- are the stakes high? They are.

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 8:48:21 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Richard Muller with money from the Koch's has concluded that global warming is happening and it is caused by the human caused rise in CO2.


How definite is the attribution to humans? The carbon dioxide curve gives a better match than anything else we’ve tried. Its magnitude is consistent with the calculated greenhouse effect — extra warming from trapped heat radiation. These facts don’t prove causality and they shouldn’t end skepticism, but they raise the bar: to be considered seriously, an alternative explanation must match the data at least as well as carbon dioxide does.




IOW no other cause supports the data. That rules out solar activity, volcanic activity, changes in the Earth's orbit and all the other red herrings the climate change deniers have trotted out over the years. So until someone finds something that matches the data better, Muller says that is extremely unlikely, then CO2 must be considered the causitive factor.

So the time for delay is passed. Now is the time to take action, reduce global carbon output and increase use of renewable energy sources that produce far less CO2.

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 9:24:58 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		If there is more carbondioxide, plant life will proliferate, removing excess carbondioxide from the atmosphere. So there: no need to worry about carbondioxide.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 9:27:22 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		   It makes me skeptical when somebody jumps out and says: "OK you have worked for decades trying to figure out the problems, we put together the project, here are the final true conclusions".  It does not work this way in reality. This is highly politicized issue. The research grants are driven by money and they tend to produce desired results. Complex models have low long-term predictive value. I trust more direct data,historical data, and stretching the trends.
I do not doubt the data global warming is happening and that there is human effect on climate. How much? There is Mars warming also happening now. How this fact fits into the picture?
  "We have planetary emergency", this is what Al Gore says. What he means is we need some kind of tyrannical steps and measures in order to take control of the situation.
    I do not see the real solutions being possible within the current economic/political system, considering the current economic ideology in general. When the elites are pushing for solution the first question in their heads is: "how can I personally benefit and financially gain from this?". Fighting global warming has already become money maker (taxpayer money transfer) for selected groups (similar to fighting "terror") with rather poor efficiency.  The current financial, and economic system in general, will change inevitably within a few years, it has entered this phase. I do not see how can we insert  financing problems related to global warming into this picture.
   
 

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 9:58:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

If there is more carbondioxide, plant life will proliferate, removing excess carbondioxide from the atmosphere. So there: no need to worry about carbondioxide.

Clue: plants breath oxygen. Photosynthesis uses carbon dioxide.


(in reply to Rule)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 9:59:51 AM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

If there is more carbondioxide, plant life will proliferate, removing excess carbondioxide from the atmosphere.

You'll find that's why a lot of environmentalists are worried about logging.

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(in reply to Rule)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 10:09:05 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe some of those HAARP conspiracy idiots will come to their senses too. If the US government scientists can control the weather, why would they allow a drought to continue when the government has to shell out disaster relief to drought stricken states.

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 10:11:46 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Conspiracy theories are supposed to make sense?


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 11:02:36 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Richard Muller with money from the Koch's has concluded that global warming is happening and it is caused by the human caused rise in CO2.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all
http://berkeleyearth.org/


I can pull a quotable from the net too.

There are no experimental data to support the hypothesis that increases in human hydrocarbon use or in atmospheric carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases are causing or can be expected to cause unfavorable changes in global temperatures, weather, or landscape. There is no reason to limit human production of CO2, CH4, and other minor greenhouse gases as has been proposed (82,83,97,123).

We also need not worry about environmental calamities even if the current natural warming trend continues. The Earth has been much warmer during the past 3,000 years without catastrophic effects. Warmer weather extends growing seasons and generally improves the habitability of colder regions.

As coal, oil, and natural gas are used to feed and lift from poverty vast numbers of people across the globe, more CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. This will help to maintain and improve the health, longevity, prosperity, and productivity of all people.

The United States and other countries need to produce more energy, not less. The most practical, economical, and environmentally sound methods available are hydrocarbon and nuclear technologies.

Human use of coal, oil, and natural gas has not harmfully warmed the Earth, and the extrapolation of current trends shows that it will not do so in the foreseeable future. The CO2 produced does, however, accelerate the growth rates of plants and also permits plants to grow in drier regions. Animal life, which depends upon plants, also flourishes, and the diversity of plant and animal life is increased.

Human activities are producing part of the rise in CO2 in the atmosphere. Mankind is moving the carbon in coal, oil, and natural gas from below ground to the atmosphere, where it is available for conversion into living things. We are living in an increasingly lush environment of plants and animals as a result of this CO2 increase. Our children will therefore enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life than that with which we now are blessed.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 1:47:48 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		Why can't everyone just stop exhaling. Does this explain why the polar caps on Mars and venus shrinking as well?

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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 2:24:13 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
If there is more carbondioxide, plant life will proliferate, removing excess carbondioxide from the atmosphere. So there: no need to worry about carbondioxide.

Clue: plants breath oxygen. Photosynthesis uses carbon dioxide.


Rather than I try giving my rusty biology knowledge on the subject....

"Do plants breathe? Yes and no… Breathing and respiring are two different things. Mammals, including humans, breathe by using muscles to pull air into the lungs and push it out, which brings oxygen to the blood and gets rid of carbon dioxide. The blood takes the breathed-in oxygen round the body, where it is used by the cells, and takes waste carbon dioxide back to the lungs, where it is breathed out.

The process of cells using oxygen and getting rid of carbon dioxide is called respiration. Plants have very small holes on the underneath of leaves, called stomata, which let the carbon dioxide and oxygen in and out in a process called diffusion.

Plant cells respire as well, using oxygen and getting rid of carbon dioxide. Plants also use carbon dioxide when they make food from the sun’s energy and this makes oxygen – this is called photosynthesis. During the day, the plant cells photosynthesise more than they respire, so they get rid of more oxygen than carbon dioxide.

During the night, the plant cells respire more than they photosynthesise, so they get rid of more carbon dioxide than oxygen. People used to think that they should not keep plants in bedrooms at night in case the plants used up all the oxygen, but the amount used is too small to make any difference."

SOURCE


(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 3:35:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Richard Muller with money from the Koch's has concluded that global warming is happening and it is caused by the human caused rise in CO2.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all
http://berkeleyearth.org/


I can pull a quotable from the net too.

There are no experimental data to support the hypothesis that increases in human hydrocarbon use or in atmospheric carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases are causing or can be expected to cause unfavorable changes in global temperatures, weather, or landscape. There is no reason to limit human production of CO2, CH4, and other minor greenhouse gases as has been proposed (82,83,97,123).

We also need not worry about environmental calamities even if the current natural warming trend continues. The Earth has been much warmer during the past 3,000 years without catastrophic effects. Warmer weather extends growing seasons and generally improves the habitability of colder regions.

As coal, oil, and natural gas are used to feed and lift from poverty vast numbers of people across the globe, more CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. This will help to maintain and improve the health, longevity, prosperity, and productivity of all people.

The United States and other countries need to produce more energy, not less. The most practical, economical, and environmentally sound methods available are hydrocarbon and nuclear technologies.

Human use of coal, oil, and natural gas has not harmfully warmed the Earth, and the extrapolation of current trends shows that it will not do so in the foreseeable future. The CO2 produced does, however, accelerate the growth rates of plants and also permits plants to grow in drier regions. Animal life, which depends upon plants, also flourishes, and the diversity of plant and animal life is increased.

Human activities are producing part of the rise in CO2 in the atmosphere. Mankind is moving the carbon in coal, oil, and natural gas from below ground to the atmosphere, where it is available for conversion into living things. We are living in an increasingly lush environment of plants and animals as a result of this CO2 increase. Our children will therefore enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life than that with which we now are blessed.

OISM is the Oregon institute of science and medicine which is the website you quote run out of the guys house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson

Richard Muller OTOH is a prominent researcher who was until this study so prominent a skeptic of global warming that the Koch brothers chose him as the ehad of the BEST project that they hoped would disprove global warming. Unfortunately for them and you Muller is an actual scientist and when confronted with teh facts he admitted the truth.

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 3:44:38 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

Rather than I try giving my rusty biology knowledge on the subject....

"Do plants breathe? Yes and no… Breathing and respiring are two different things.


The term you're looking for is transpiration. And for the context of the current discussion, whether muscles are involved is irrelevant.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 9:41:14 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Why can't everyone just stop exhaling. Does this explain why the polar caps on Mars and venus shrinking as well?

Polar caps on Venus?????????????????
What the fuck are you smoking?

_____________________________

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 9:58:35 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Polar caps on Venus?????????????????

That one slipped by me. Must have been due to a lack of sleep.

Well done.

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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/29/2012 10:07:42 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		Yep.
Global warming by Carbon Dioxide? Proposed solutions other than waking lucy Goosey and Turkey Lurkey? Watch that Foxie Wokie guy. I thought this changed to Cimate change when the numbers fluctuated.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/159/3819/1097.abstract

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: climate change denier comes to his senses - 7/30/2012 2:42:46 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Yep.
Global warming by Carbon Dioxide? Proposed solutions other than waking lucy Goosey and Turkey Lurkey? Watch that Foxie Wokie guy. I thought this changed to Cimate change when the numbers fluctuated.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/159/3819/1097.abstract

We've learned a lot since 1969. There is no ice much less liquid water on Venus. It is far too hot. Average surface temp is over 400 degrees centigrade.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)
Profile   Post #: 20
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