Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (Full Version)

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Karnikula -> Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 10:19:55 AM)

What do you think, what building stones or parameters are to be found in D/s relationships ?
What's the dividing factor to other relationships?

Think science: What are the Bits and what holds them together ?
What are the possible motivations, forces behind what activities, feelings, protocol etc.

inspired by the following writing, posted by "Carolyn" on fetlife:

quote:

I have often mentioned my favorite D/s oriented theory which is that most D/s or M/s relationships have elements of obedience, service or pleasing - but that most relationships have one dominant (excuse the pun) "flavor." I also think some people are ambi-flavorful and some people have a distinct preferred flavor.

So what does this mean? The best way to describe it is to tell a story. I'll try to make it short but bear with me. Years ago I was on a D/s mailing/discussion list for couples. One woman (sub) said there was no obedience in her relationship. I was SHOCKED! I argued that how could she call it D/s if there was no obedience!! We went round and round for days and ended up agreeing to disagree.

Months later our group did a "day in the life" report where we posted what we did on a date we picked at random. She told her story and at one point said "I came downstairs all dressed up but Sir said he liked my blue dress better so I changed."

AH HA!! I said. Gotcha! You obeyed him. And she said (Cue the light bulb in Carolyn's head) "no, I did it to please him." That was why she argued there was no obedience in her relationship because TO HER, the flavor she tasted in her mind (or to switch metaphors mid-post, the song she sang in her head) was all about pleasing.

I've said I'm not service oriented. My husband actually does serve me - but he does so from a obedience flavor.

To some extent the flavor is merely a reflection of our emotional reaction to certain words. But to some extent it reflects different actions. My husband is not very proactive in his service. He does things without being asked but only after I've said "I want you to do X, regularly." Otherwise he stands by ready to serve, or please but isn't proactive. That's my preference. He felt guilty at first "standing by" but now he trusts that's my preference.


Which is not quite what I'm looking for, but that's what sparked my train of thoughts - maybe you experienced folks can help me out?



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 10:42:55 AM)

I have no idea what directing you do want to end up taking this, but in regards to the quoted post: she's right.

There is no obedience or pleasing in my relationship, other than what a vanilla husband and wife do for each other.
On the other hand, I do obey him -when I feel like it- and attempt to do that to the letter. It's his job to make sure I feel like it.
Interestingly enough what that ends us up with us a relationship most don't seem to consider/recognize as D/s.



Karnikula -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 10:51:59 AM)

So what is your D/s based on?
How does he make you feel like what?
What does that do for the both of you?
What motivation is behind that?



littlewonder -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 10:59:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

So what is your D/s based on?
How does he make you feel like what?
What does that do for the both of you?
What motivation is behind that?


My d/s is based on serving, obeying and pleasing.
He makes me feel like the luckiest woman in the world.
It makes us feel like we're the luckiest people in the world.
My motivation is love.

My relationship is pretty much like any relationship. We care for each other, we love each other and we both want to make each other happy. The only difference is he is the one in control...basically an old fashioned traditional relationship.

I think too many are analyzing their relationships to the point that the more they try to break it down, the more it will play havoc on the relationship.

Instead, why not just be happy where you are?



JhonP -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 11:10:11 AM)

quote:

What do you think, what building stones or parameters are to be found in D/s relationships ?
What's the dividing factor to other relationships


I am very interested in the many crossroads the unfolding of this thread will produce. However based on the regular posters past performance I suspect nothing of a rational or logical nature will will become its part.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 11:20:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

So what is your D/s based on?



Obedience. He tells me what to do, and when I feel like it I do it. He creates an atmosphere in which I feel like obeying just about all the time, and therefore gets what he wants just about all the time. I get what I want, because being bossed around and being made to jump through hoops happens to get me off.
Regarding the blue sweater example: if he had just said he liked the other one better, I would have shrugged and gone on with my day. If he would have told me to change it, I would have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

How does he make you feel like what?



He makes me feel like obeying things by having a dominant, assertive attitude, not accepting "no" as an answer, but being un-ambivalent in his orders, and by attaching consequences to failure to carry out orders to perfection.
The best effects are achieved with me if you take on an attitude, tone of voice, and conciseness in command that's very much akin to how you would take the lead of a police dog, or something like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

What does that do for the both of you?



I'm not sure about him, I'm not a mind reader, but I'm assuming it gets him a lot of exactly what he wants all the time.
For me, it eroticizes my whole life to point that mundane life is all but that anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

What motivation is behind that?



It makes me happy, bubbly and look forward to getting up in the morning.
(Which BTW, I've been in a long term M/s relationship where I was exacted to fully be a "pleaser" and very little "obeying" was done. It had the exact opposite effect on me than obeying does. It made everything more dreary, made me depressed and wanting to escape from what my life had become.



SlipSlidingAway -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 11:23:57 AM)

The thing is, beyond dominance and submission, there really are no universal bits.  And, since everyone defines those in a personal way, in a way that relates to them, their relationships(s) (if they are in one), and where their interests, desires, and experiences have led there really can be no "science" behind it.  While I could sit here and list what it means to me, it won't do anyone else a darn bit of good. 



topcat -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 11:37:11 AM)

If that's the 'Carolyn' I think it is (and it sure 'sounds' like her), after about 15 years of interacting with her (Online, and in RL), she's rarely wrong.

I think, really that the root of a 'good' D/S relationship is not so much the ability to 'command' and other and be obeyed, but the agreement about the limits of that authority.

IMX many relationships go along fine until a discrepancy in the partners individual beliefs in the 'deal' they have- e.g. "you can not go hunting with your buddies next week, you must come to my college roommate's sister's wedding shower with me!" -an actual example from a friends relationship, which ended up being the end of them.

Point being, to *me* the most important factor is 'the deal' (contract, covenant, whateva), and the 'carve outs' (a term I believe I picked up from Carolyn, as I think of it)- those areas where my authority over her do not apply (usually Family, Friends, Finances, Career). I don't know many non-D/S relationships that start off with negotiations.



seekingreality -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 12:57:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

What do you think, what building stones or parameters are to be found in D/s relationships ?
What's the dividing factor to other relationships?

Think science: What are the Bits and what holds them together ?
What are the possible motivations, forces behind what activities, feelings, protocol etc.



When people start to talk about DS relationships on this forum I often find I can't relate to their viewpoint. Too often, they either focus on scening and kinky fun, which I enjoy, but which I don't consider a relationship. Or they see DS as the defining aspect of their relationship, which doesn't work for me either.

For me the building blocks of a DS relationship are really no different than a vanilla relationship -- shared values, a desire for the other person to grow as a human being, simply enjoying each other's company.

The kinky stuff; how much dominance and obedience comes into play in your everyday interactions; etc. can, for me, be anywhere across the spectrum depending on the people involve.






Karnikula -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 1:26:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
The only difference is he is the one in control...basically an old fashioned traditional relationship.


So CONTROL is an important influence on your D/s ?

What *is* control ? How is it created and how does it feel in your relationship ?

edit: to everyone else, thank you very much for your replies, I might come back to them later but right now I'll just hit the sheets, good night.



OsideGirl -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 1:29:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality


For me the building blocks of a DS relationship are really no different than a vanilla relationship -- shared values, a desire for the other person to grow as a human being, simply enjoying each other's company.


This is pretty much my view as well. Where it differs is that we have a tacit agreement on power structure.



Karnikula -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 1:38:53 PM)

So what's your power structure all about if you look at just the basics?
obedience? service? pleasure? control? something else?

What's the most important thing, how does it work, etc.



OsideGirl -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 1:47:41 PM)

It will take me a little while to actually figure out how to articulate that. We've been together so long that most of it is automatic.



littlewonder -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 2:03:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
The only difference is he is the one in control...basically an old fashioned traditional relationship.


So CONTROL is an important influence on your D/s ?

What *is* control ? How is it created and how does it feel in your relationship ?

edit: to everyone else, thank you very much for your replies, I might come back to them later but right now I'll just hit the sheets, good night.


Power and control are right up there with honesty, integrity, etc...
Control means he has the power to influence, manage and direct my behavior and actions.
It feels heavenly, stable, quiet and comforting. I feel as if there's nothing I need to worry about. I am a person who thrives on stability, balance, rules.



RemoteUser -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 3:07:33 PM)

Know each other as people; work it out together as partners. Basic but accurate. Worked for my girl and I. [:)]

For us there is control, and there is obedience, within the confines of what I desire and what she can do. We take the time to understand these things - she notes what I want, and I note what she wants, and we meet in that place where we are happy together. It's still generic but it best describes what we have, and sums neatly the dynamic that works for us, and, I suspect, others. The rest is details, details.



DesFIP -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/3/2012 5:13:55 PM)

There are service types, obedience types, people pleasers, and those in it for emotional transparency. They're the largest groups I know of. And there's always some overlap.

But all in all, there's a huge amount of commonality, of compatibility. You don't view things from radically different places so you don't argue about it.



samdarella -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/4/2012 1:29:33 AM)

I hear so often that it's just like a vanilla relationship. Then why isn't it a vanilla relationship? Did The relationship just happen to involve 2 people that share the same kinks.

Well said littlewonder.

Sure our relationship has vanilla aspects to it. But it's definitely not vanilla. Control is a huge factor. I need that to feel that I belong to Him. He needs to be in control because that's who He is. I need to serve and to please. It's at the core of who I am.

I do believe in whatever works for you is good. Glad it does. Diversity makes the world go round. But I can't imagine only obeying when I feel like it. Sure He motivates me to obey and please Him. But I'm goin to do what He says whether I feel like it or not. Lol. Just don't think it would work out well for either of us if I got to pick and choose what or when I was going to obey. He isn't a tyrant. Nor a micromanager. But He is always in control. He leads, I follow. As it should be.



crazyml -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/4/2012 1:43:43 AM)

Oh... clearly BDSM relationships are very different from vanilla relationships, and I think you've hit the nail on the head (at least in terms of the way I view BDSM relationships).

I think the point that people (including me at times) are making when we say "it's not that different from a vanilla relationship" is that there are some core things that are common to both..

For example, here's what I'm looking for (again - this is just for me)

Compatible values
Compatible goals
Integrity
Honesty
Personal strength
Intellect
Mutual trust
Mutual respect

and...

A desire to be in a relationship in which there was an element of power exchange
Kink compatibility

So t he first items are applicable to any kind of close relationship, the latter two are what distinguish it as a BDSM relationship.

Now, there's a strong argument that could be made that says that because of the kink, and because of the nature of the exchange of power, the levels of trust (and I'd argue - mutual respect) need to be stronger, because of the intensity of some of the kinky stuff you may be indulging in.




LadyPact -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/4/2012 2:51:37 AM)

What I'm about to say almost seems an overly simplistic, common sense type of answer, so if I'm not getting what you are asking, the following won't make any sense.

Part of what you seem to be asking is about determining compatibility. Even just for vanilla folks, this is a pretty wide field. That's the stuff like morals, ethics, values, priorities in life, character, personality, sex, goals, etc, etc, etc. Take a look at an E-Harmony ad sometime and see just how many areas of compatibility that they've come up with.

Add onto this all of the various ways that kinky people determine compatibility. That's stuff like level of authority, control, service, obedience, amount of play, transparency, types of kinks, punishment, experience level, home structure, etc.

Different people go about determining these areas of compatibility in various ways, taking what's most important to them first. Some won't bring the kink compatibility into it at all until they have established vanilla compatibility. Others will take on compatibility on as a mixture between the two.

Everything after this gets based on personal preference. The easiest way to convey the idea is the old "on a scale of one to ten" applied across various areas. Stuff like how important is obedience to you/how fulfilled are you by obeying? How important is the frequency of sadism/masochism? How much control do you want/are you willing to relinquish?

There are all kinds of BDSM checklists out there that focus on kinks only. What most folks really need is a checklist that covers all the important aspects of a dynamic. At least as a place to start. In the piece listed in the original post, you may find areas of semantics that, even though the D and the s use different terms, the result could be the same, so both parties are happy. Something like I say change the sweater and the sweater gets changed. To Me, that's obedience. I may not care if My s sees that as pleasing Me. I'm still getting the same result.

The other part to this is the issue of when people have different priorities or are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Mix a laid back Dominant with a submissive who craves structure and formality and there are going to be issues. A Dominant who wants control over various aspects in life and someone who only wants to submit in the bedroom probably don't match.

Asking questions like what is most important or highest on the list is never going to get a universal answer. It's going to be different for everyone. The deal is to know where these areas lie for yourself to see if they mesh the person that you are engaging.



RaspberryLemon -> RE: Analyzing D/s relationships bit by bit. (8/4/2012 3:39:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula
So what is your D/s based on?
My dynamic is based on ownership. To us, that means him having complete authority over me, and also responsibility. It means me obeying, pleasing, and serving him. These are the basics, and all are important.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula
How does he make you feel like what?
By just being himself, leading me, keeping me by his side, relating to me and showing me his acceptance and love for me...He makes me feel safe, content, loved, and appreciated. He makes me feel like I belong to him. That feeling of belonging is absolutely amazing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula
What does that do for the both of you?
He enjoys taking a leadership role, and expresses his love for me by taking responsibility. Those needs get fulfilled for him. I enjoy belonging to him, following him, and I express my love for him by obeying, pleasing, and serving him. Those needs get fulfilled for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula
What motivation is behind that?
Love, respect, and trust.



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