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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:02:50 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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I agree with everything said as well. Most especially as I *am* one who goes into such intense sub space I am not responsible for myself in the least. This is why I do not play casually as a sub (and never have). This is why I have never sought out sadists.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:05:54 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

Anyway, the point of the consent discussions is that "no" is being ignored way too much, and if NO and STOP and GET AWAY FROM ME are not being heard, and the person tries to report and is silenced and shamed, what's the solution?

Take responsibility for you part in the incident and learn from it for future use. I'm not saying to let the other person completely off the hook. That person has fault also but don't blame the entire interaction on the other party alone.

It's like people who blame their divorce and crappy marriage on the other party. They don't see how they played a part in it as well. When my ex dom cheated on me with his current girl, I didn't blame him completely. I blamed myself for my part in it as well.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:06:39 PM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

If it were me that happened to, I would certainly feel that I should have selected my partner more carefully, AND I would absolutely hold the top accountable for his actions too.

It really is a two way street in many ways. Not all ways.

I am not in the victim-blamer camp, obviously. I've never been a victim, don't plan to start, but really? No one asks for nonconsensual rape. And that is the whole point of the argument. Which evidently will go on until the end of days.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:09:24 PM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

Anyway, the point of the consent discussions is that "no" is being ignored way too much, and if NO and STOP and GET AWAY FROM ME are not being heard, and the person tries to report and is silenced and shamed, what's the solution?

Take responsibility for you part in the incident and learn from it for future use. I'm not saying to let the other person completely off the hook. That person has fault also but don't blame the entire interaction on the other party alone.

It's like people who blame their divorce and crappy marriage on the other party. They don't see how they played a part in it as well. When my ex dom cheated on me with his current girl, I didn't blame him completely. I blamed myself for my part in it as well.

What was your part in that, LW, did you find the girl for him to cheat with? He may have been dissatisfied with you but cheating was HIS CHOICE. Really and truly.

A friend says "there's plenty of blame to go around in every situation", and she's right, the blame game has no winners and everyone can play. What is happening all too often is that the victim is silenced AND the attacker gets to go on their merry way.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:11:09 PM

littlewonder

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My part in that was that I was fucked up when I entered into a relationship with him. I was still a mess from my husband's death and I was desperate for intimacy and affection. It was my fault as well that I ignored things that I should have not ignored.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:12:49 PM

tameeks

Posts: 173
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Maybe it's just me but even when I'm in subspace, I can still tell a person to stop or to walk away. Yeah, I may not be able to form words but I could at least push his hands away. Even though my legs may be a bit wobbly, I can still stand up and walk away.

Sorry, but I don't think subspace is an excuse for responsibility.

And imo if you play casually with someone that you don't know then yeah....that's part of your responsibility too. It's the same as when you go to a bar and pick up a guy. You don't know the guy from Adam, you're lucky if you even know his name. You decide to leave with him and he does something you didn't want then again, that's on you for not being responsible.

When I was single and casually dating, I took chances and fucked guys who I didn't even know their name. BUT even though I was drunk, I was still to blame for doing stupid stuff. I never blamed the guy.

If I played casually, which I've never done, and some guy tied me up and I just met him 5 minutes ago at the play party, again, it's on me.

This is what I was thinking, but I'm still relatively new and figured I just hadn't attained the level of subspace those people are speaking about. *shrugs*

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Post #: 26

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:14:53 PM

PeonForHer

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FR

Sometimes I really don't get why people can't see the problem. Philosophy, psychology, ethics, culture: none of these have evolved with WIIWD in mind - taking power, or giving it willingly. If you hold onto your ability to give your consent or not, you hold on to a fundamental type of power - perhaps the main type of power. Both dominants and submissives are going to push up against that contradiction, because the one wants power and the other wants to give it up.

Time and again I've thought: the end point of all this is a contradiction that *cannot be resolved*. You can't make the illogic of it go away. So, don't try. Live with it. Contradictions can be fun.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:15:46 PM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

My part in that was that I was fucked up when I entered into a relationship with him. I was still a mess from my husband's death and I was desperate for intimacy and affection. It was my fault as well that I ignored things that I should have not ignored.

As I said, that is NOT what made him cheat. HE CHOSE TO CHEAT. He could have just broken up with you. Causality fail.

~~

Have you all really not seen people in other DIMENSIONS? My late playmate actually needed help getting dressed, she would stare at her shirt in befuddlement and not come to earth for a good half hour. I know many people who do that sort of thing. (Granted, they are not folks who play randomly with strangers!)

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:18:55 PM

JeffBC

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~fast reply~
Just for the record, I'm pretty good with "no means no". I'm also pretty good with "yes means yes". Where things get really fucked up in my head is when no means yes and yes means no and anything can be reinterpreted after the fact any way whatsoever. I'm also spectacularly uncool with vigilante justice.

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Post #: 29

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:19:04 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Maybe it's just me but even when I'm in subspace, I can still tell a person to stop or to walk away. Yeah, I may not be able to form words but I could at least push his hands away. Even though my legs may be a bit wobbly, I can still stand up and walk away.

Sorry, but I don't think subspace is an excuse for responsibility.

And imo if you play casually with someone that you don't know then yeah....that's part of your responsibility too. It's the same as when you go to a bar and pick up a guy. You don't know the guy from Adam, you're lucky if you even know his name. You decide to leave with him and he does something you didn't want then again, that's on you for not being responsible.

When I was single and casually dating, I took chances and fucked guys who I didn't even know their name. BUT even though I was drunk, I was still to blame for doing stupid stuff. I never blamed the guy.

If I played casually, which I've never done, and some guy tied me up and I just met him 5 minutes ago at the play party, again, it's on me.

Sometimes I can communicate or push a hand, and sometimes I can't. I've been so far gone I'm really just like jello wiggling around on the bed, slurring, drooling, trying to move a hand but just flopping it wherever it flops instead. Subspace is not a universal place.

Then again, I only go to that place with the Mister, in a long term, established, trusting, loving relationship. I don't go to clubs and play casually, and if I did, I wouldn't allow myself to fly that high with someone I wasn't in an intimate, long term, trusting, loving relationship with.

As for the personal responsibility plea - - eh. It's life. It's a universe with millions of people and not everyone is going to be at the same place on the maturity spectrum at the same time as everyone else. I saw some of the arguments on Fet. People are getting very emotionally upset and hostile over those discussions.

But yanno, I'm sorry not everyone is as self aware and awesome as I am so the world can be a better place (my very simplistic interpretation of what's being said here, there and everywhere). You go out there in the world and play hard, you take a risk. If you *are* one of those awesome, self aware, mature people, take the time to know and understand your subject before pushing an envelope that hasn't been discussed. Since I'm not a casual club player, I'm only assuming scenes are discussed first.

I'm a fan of personal responsibility. For everyone involved. I also know there are a LOT of people out there in the world who haven't figured personal responsibility out yet. Not sure what the answer is - you're not going to change all the irresponsible folks but maybe threads like these chip away at the iceburg, so to speak.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:21:43 PM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

~fast reply~
Just for the record, I'm pretty good with "no means no". I'm also pretty good with "yes means yes". Where things get really fucked up in my head is when no means yes and yes means no and anything can be reinterpreted after the fact any way whatsoever. I'm also spectacularly uncool with vigilante justice.

Enforcer Hib wants to be a vigilante when she knows all the parties involved. But she has self control and all that masterly stuff so she forbears.

All the internet blithering in the world isn't going to accomplish anything. We have to take care of our own gardens, and hope the neighbours do too, because we've set the example.

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:32:34 PM

imin2bdsm

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I rarely post in these threads, though I make a point of following them; but in this case I thought I'd kick in my two pence.

I have always believed that communication is the cornerstone of all BDSM relationships, whether it is a one off meeting or a LTR. I asked my subs a lot of questions about their experiences, their fantasies and their desires. I asked about limits, what turns them on, what squicks them, what does nothing for them either way. AND I encourage them to ask ME questions. I have told many a sub (and state it in my profile) when you are talking to a Dom find out what his or her limits are. What won't they do? What turns them off as well as turns them on. A Dominant might ignore the sub's limits in the heat of a scene but they almost never ignore their own limits.
And when you communicate, LISTEN! Pay attention to what you read, hear and see. Don't let your own desires overwhelm your common sense. If the Dominant has something on their Lives For, Loves or Likes list that you as the sub has on their Hate or Hard Limit list, ask yourself how you will feel if it is done to you anyway.
There is an assumption, that the Dom has the self control and experience needed to keep his own desires in check and his sub's limits clearly in mind. This is not always the case, especially with the flood of young Dominants (male and female) who seem to think that all they need to control is an attitude.
I don't mean to excuse any Dom that oversteps his sub's limits, or to pass all responsibility for the experience to the sub, but it is a two way street and everyone can stay safely in their lanes if they pay attention to the signs and communicate.

(in reply to Celticgerman)

Post #: 32

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:36:57 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

My part in that was that I was fucked up when I entered into a relationship with him. I was still a mess from my husband's death and I was desperate for intimacy and affection. It was my fault as well that I ignored things that I should have not ignored.

As I said, that is NOT what made him cheat. HE CHOSE TO CHEAT. He could have just broken up with you. Causality fail.

~~

Have you all really not seen people in other DIMENSIONS? My late playmate actually needed help getting dressed, she would stare at her shirt in befuddlement and not come to earth for a good half hour. I know many people who do that sort of thing. (Granted, they are not folks who play randomly with strangers!)

The way I see it, by facing my own faults from my past relationship, I make my current relationship stronger.

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Post #: 33

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:44:24 PM

Winterapple

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FR
I think that when you put yourself in the
game you need to do so with the
acknowledgement that there are risks
involved. And only you can decide what
the acceptable risks are.

That said the coot invader was a louse.
If she told him beforehand when she was
clearheaded don't do that and he agreed
but did it anyway when she was less
clearheaded he violated her, her trust
and her body. She chose to put herself
in a vulnerable position but that did not
give him carte blanche to do whatever
he wanted to do to her.

I imagine there are bottoms who went
it was over and they found themselves
feeling differently than they thought would
who lash out and blame the top for not
having telepathy and not being able to
see into the future and know it wasn't
going to be a happy happy experience.
But some doms contribute to that sort
of thing sometimes by posturing
themselves as all knowing.

I think people are to quick to put the
cart before the horse when it comes to
playing with a virtual stranger. I avoid
reading those K&P threads. They make
me think to often of something Gore
Vidal said his grandfather was fond of saying.
"If there was a race other than the human
one I'd join it."

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Post #: 34

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 12:48:24 PM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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This was a very good post, b/c for many of us, it's a matter of pure dumb luck. Want to know how dumb it was for me?

When I first got into this, I was in my early 20s, not exactly the most mature or the most personally responsible human being on the planet. Fortunately for the rest of the humans, I was so ignorant of my *own* self, I hadn't acknowledged my sub side, so that side didn't factor into my choices.

Yes, it's easy to look back and say you should have done this and you should have done that. It's easy to say everyone should take personal responsibility. People don't. Other than knowing your play partners well, there is nothing you can do about it. If you play casually, you *are* rolling the dice.

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Post #: 35

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:02:50 PM

LadyPact

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Comment on the original and then one of the follow ups from the OP.

I'm still at a loss as to why you say this squicks you out, Jeff. Is it that the gorilla in the room really does exist or that so many people do want to ignore it? Had the writing not been over a year old on Fet, I probably would have commented on the space linked how much I liked the piece.

I don't think it's so much a culture of victimhood. As Hib said, you have to look at each situation and see where the majority of the issue lies. Hey, I play casually. I see bottoms who go that deeply into subspace (and know it) as being responsible for saying so. Just the same as those who are prone to faint from certain activities. As a top, that's the kind of thing that I need to know before you fall out and I'm trying to pick you up. (Yes, it's happened.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

~fast reply~
Just for the record, I'm pretty good with "no means no". I'm also pretty good with "yes means yes". Where things get really fucked up in my head is when no means yes and yes means no and anything can be reinterpreted after the fact any way whatsoever. I'm also spectacularly uncool with vigilante justice.

Do you happen to remember Me telling you some time back that there are certain types of play that I don't conduct in the public play space? Resistance play is one of those, where the bottom (ummmm, clip, most of the time) is specifically going to resist, say no, and I as the top am going to 'force' that person to accept yes. Take downs, rape play, and similar belong in this category. A lot of play spaces are specific in their dungeon rules about informing the DM ahead of time that "no" and "stop" and begging of various types is going to be heard in the dungeon. The scene doesn't stop unless a very specific "red" is heard. It tends to freak out observers any time you throw what appears to be non-consensual play out there.

Unlike you though, I actually am in favor of vigilante justice. It was a lot more prevalent a few years back than it is now. You're an unsafe player or, like Hib mentioned, you take advantage and grab the cooter when the gals are tied up on a regular basis? A few of the guys would get together to have a little talk with you and make it understood that you and the underhanded tactics just really weren't welcome at our little community play space. I actually liked that a lot better than the "we have to collect as much money at the door as possible" philosophy that some events have turned into.

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Post #: 36

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:04:54 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
The way I see it, by facing my own faults from my past relationship, I make my current relationship stronger.

I see it the same way. One of my previous partners treated me... well... let's just say spectacularly poorly even by standards of domestic abuse. My net assessment was "bad pick" Sure, I recognize her fault. But her fault doesn't help ME.

It's in this same vein that I say I accept full responsibility for Carol... even if she flat out lies to me. By now, not only is there the initial pick. There is also about 12 years of me knowing and molding her in a vanilla sense. Then there's another 6-ish?? years of me much more actively molding her in an M/s sense. By now, my dirty little fingerprints are all over her mind and if she's able to lie to me like that in any serious way... it really is my bad... on many levels.

The idea that some random top in a club would assume (or be told he oughta assume) that same sort of responsibility (in the absence of about 99.9999% of the authority I have) over some random sub is a large part of what squicked me reading that post and it's comments. Heh... honestly, if some bottom told me she thought the buck ought to stop on my desk in that context I think I'd say, "Good. Let's sit down. We're going to have a little discussion about thought control, obedience, discipline, integrity, and the relationship between responsibility and authority. After that discussion, if you STILL think you want me to have that kind of responsibility/authority I'll need to go find a slave collar for you and unpack the sheets for the spare bed."

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Post #: 37

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:12:06 PM

LadyHibiscus

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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Jeff, you're not a BDSM type of guy, right? So really what we're talking about is here not the same thing, though I do agree with what you've said on its own. Just speaking as an edge player, and as a person who really doesn't naturally want to ask for permission, I don't think "don't rape your playmates or violate their consent by ignoring negotiated boundaries for the set time you are together" is all that much to ask. Whoops! Silly me.

LP, here in the D, all the vigilantes have left the building. (including me!) It's not that we've stopped caring, we've just stopped swimming against the tide and have turned our backs on it all. It's a really sad situation.

< Message edited by LadyHibiscus -- 8/10/2012 1:13:39 PM >

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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:17:30 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I'm still at a loss as to why you say this squicks you out, Jeff. Is it that the gorilla in the room really does exist or that so many people do want to ignore it?

As I said in a later post, I think what happened was that I already knew and was squicked by this stuff and reading that post was like a flashback. I'm over it already. Yup, there are some ridiculous things going on out in play spaces. I just need to not get involved in them.... not even remotely... then all will be fine for me. ROFL, I was thinking this morning as I was looking for what play events are happening this week... easy to fix. I'll just find a collar somewhere and wear it to the play event. That'll keep me far, far away from any bottoms.

I definitely disagree on the culture of victimhood. I've seen it EVERYWHERE. From the very first moment I ran into [online] BDSM in SecondLife. I see it here on these boards constantly. It's a large part of why I resonate so much with LW & Kana. If you create a culture where it's OK to be a precious little flower just waiting to be crushed then you're gonna end up with a lot of those crushed flowers. I want Carol to have NO part of that at all. I see it as directly damaging in a really, really insidious sort of way. I've said it before on these boards. People rise or fall to the level of expectation of their leaders. So if the community leaders perceive subs/bottoms as precious flowers then that's what you're gonna get. I don't want Carol drinking that kool-aid even just a bit.

Insofar as vigilante justice. I'd like to rethink my stand on that. In SMALL communities I think self-policing like that is highly effective. I see no reason why that wouldn't work out pretty well given a sufficiently small community population. It turns into witch hunts and lynch mobs when the size of the community in question can no longer support the ad hoc communication required for it to work out that way. I suspect the old structures won't work now that BDSM has come out of the closet and the community sizes are scaled up DRAMATICALLY.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/10/2012 1:18:14 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Post #: 39

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:20:25 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The way I see it, by facing my own faults from my past relationship, I make my current relationship stronger.

Totally, completely agree with this. It's been the same for me - made myself *and* my relationship stronger.

Self accountability is a awesome thing.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

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Post #: 40

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