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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 8:54:09 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

But it didn't go bad from the rapist's point of view. He got what he wanted and didn't care if he got to do it again with her. And since he's well known, he figured everybody would be with Jeff on claiming 'buyers remorse' and that he'd get off scot free. And could do it again with someone else in the future.

There really are bad people out there.




There are some bad and evil people "in this lifestyle".

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 9:02:12 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks for sharing this Jeff, I probably would have never found this thread on FL.

I really am rather speechless.

Since, the bottom TOLD the top what her hard limits were in advance,
this is no more than a public rape/and an assault.

I don't play casually, I have read about how scene's are negotiated etc.
But, if the TOP decides to throw the negotiations out the window, and do what the hell he wants, all the negotiating in the world might not help you.

This person is a known danger to others, and I bet he is free as a bird, to hurt others in the future.

Not only is that top a piece of shit, but what sort of people would continue to be around trash like him?

I also don't know what the club owner's do in a "situation" like this.

Thank you so much for sharing the story Jefff!
Hopefully it will teach some people to be a lot more careful, at the very least.


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/10/2012 9:27:49 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 9:37:55 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline 		Marini, I agree with you on the piece of shit Top who took additional liberties during a scene and got away with it.
However, none of that was discussed in the post that Jeff copied for us here, but was an example that LadyHibiscus
used in mentioning how some of the many other consent topics being discussed on Fetlife.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4201184/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4201285

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When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 9:41:25 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

Marini, I agree with you on the piece of shit Top who took additional liberties during a scene and got away with it.
However, none of that was discussed in the post that Jeff copied for us here, but was an example that LadyHibiscus
used in mentioning how some of the many other consent topics being discussed on Fetlife.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4201184/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4201285


Thanks poise!
Thanks LadyHib, for giving us the 411.

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/10/2012 9:43:13 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 10:24:29 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Yup, I also agree Marini. Look... I'm going to express this in the clearest of terms.

No means No.
I get that. I get it fully, completely and viscerally. That is not my question. That is not in dispute. I don't know how much more clearly I can say that. No means NO with Carol just as it would with any random woman on the street. Carol and I don't play "consent games" in the form of consensual non-consent. Good lord, I got enough muddy consent questions with her. I hardly need to be muddying that water more with random oxymorons.

But does yes mean yes?
That's the question I face with Carol. But with Carol I'm willing to accept that level of ambiguity, risk, responsibility, and authority because I've lived with the woman for near two decades now. But if nothing which comes from a sub's lips can be trusted then subs have no honor and they are ALL walking time bombs. Do you or do you not believe that I can ask some woman whether she'd like to have sex and believe her answer? Let's suppose you and I met in some club and you took a shine to me and asked if we could play. Should I assume you may or may not be serious?

That's in the real world. If John Baku wants to turn Fetlife into the next Jerry Springer show I'm really fine with that. I'll just close Carol's and my accounts and let the poo-flinging happen far away from me. Honestly, the kind of folk that like to get involved in kangaroo courts on the internet aren't really anyone I want to be around anyway.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 10:40:31 PM   
SacredDepravity


Posts: 270
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline 		*did not read the whole thread, so please bear with me*

There is a definite and clear culture of victimhood going on in general, the BDSM community is no exception. So many seem to have no idea that they are the authors behind the scripts of their own lives. Certainly there are bad people out there and it is not always easy to spot them, but ultimately I have to say blame is nearly always a shared commodity. Bad people are bad and their blame is pretty obvious and no one doubts that. The part that's hard to swallow for much is that the other person got involved with the bad person in the first place, stuck around, and is now in distress for their troubles. Clearly the radar is broken. Why? There has to be a reason he/she missed it.

It happens all the time that people can't tell who the good guys and bad guys are. Repairing the radar is the lesson to be learned. Learning new patterns of behavior that weeds out the nutballs is essential. Nothing is foolproof though. We are all human after all. It seems insane to me to flog yourself for not knowing, not guessing.

I have been in the position of being completely blown away that someone I trusted turned out to be a monster. When it was a family member I got myself and those I loved far away. When I found out it was a friend, that relationship ended without delay. When I disovered it was an intimate partner, it was not enough to get away from that person. I had to really look at myself, my actions, what I contributed to the situation. If I don't learn from my mistakes, then I am doomed to repeat them. A painful enough lesson only has to be learned once. The fact that someone could come that close and do that much harm means I have to shore up my defenses.

At the end of the day, the indefensible is still indefensible. If you don't know, you can't consent. If you are unable to consent, then, at least in that time and space, anything that would require consent becomes a hard limit. If any of those things are done, then I suppose that is nonconsentual and, therefore, automatically predatory. A mistake or a miscommunication is one thing, but intentionally exploiting or manipulating a situation to cause consent to be given when a person otherwise would not give it or nonconsent is diregareded is another beast altogether. We do have to learn how to protect ourselves and have the voice to say delineate our boundaries. We have to learn to communicate clearly...in both directions. We need to be honest.

Predators exist. There's no getting around it, but they only multiply when there is an atrocious abundance of prey laying down and baring their necks right before them. If we want fewer predators, then we have to quit producing prey. Starvation keeps the predator moving on to more fertile hunting grounds.

SD

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 11:32:30 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity
Predators exist. There's no getting around it, but they only multiply when there is an atrocious abundance of prey laying down and baring their necks right before them. If we want fewer predators, then we have to quit producing prey. Starvation keeps the predator moving on to more fertile hunting grounds.

Oh man I SO agree with your whole post but especially this part. What concerns me a great deal is that I think the BDSM community actively and in some cases deliberately is training new prey to lay down and bare their necks. Every time you tell someone they are "prey" you do that. Then again, the BDSM community likes to play this sort of game which is why I've ended up thinking "let them do it far away from Carol and I don't want to get involved". I get risk/reward. If some folks are finding adequate reward for this risk then yay them... really. But man I wish I didn't need to hear about how awful everything is every time the inevitable chickens come home to roost.

If you get off on being prey then don't complain when you get eaten. That seems pretty obvious to me.

edited to add
Not only do predators exist... but every single one of us is a predator. Sure, that's in the biological sense but consider for a minute what it means to be a member of the most violent, deadly, aggressive, and predatory species known. As I've often noted, humans ARE the alien in the Alien movie. Yes, that includes all of us... even the delicate little flowers... even the prey laying down and baring their necks. "Safe" is a relative term when it comes to humans. If we were talking about any species other than ourselves that would be entirely obvious to us.

I don't mean to muddy the waters between legal predators and biological ones. But frankly, people would do well to remember the biological side.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/10/2012 11:39:29 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SacredDepravity)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 3:32:40 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		Can someone paste in a direct link?
the one up just sends me to a post
wall with a heap of unrelated things
on it.

I kind of have the idea from whats been
said here but no point me jumping to
conclusions without reading the article.

-ARIES

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530 DAYS

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 11:05:36 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Random thoughts from the spring board of other comments.

Like Lady C, I actually do tend to hold tops more accountable. I find tops to have more responsibility of things gone wrong more often than on the bottom side of things. It's a lot more frequent to see a top ignore (read that as flat out ignore) negotiated dos and don'ts. Oh, you're tied up now? I know you said no canes, but how about just one swat?

That leads Me to the point about negotiation. Most people don't know how to do it worth a damn, especially when they are new. As a top, I usually include what I call "tip toe through the toybag" as a part of this. It's real simple. I open up the toybag and ask the bottom if there are any toys that they are opposed to or don't want used. (Canes more than anything else get a "no".) I let them see the various floggers and which weights and styles might be too much for them. We talk about sting and thud. Metal and leather. Good sensations and bad. (The worst reply to any of this is "I don't know".) What will happen during the scene and what implements are used is important.

Add into that the stuff that every top should be asking before casual play. Any medical conditions that I need to be aware of. Marks, any areas that there can't be marks, do you bruise easily? What meds are you taking, if any?

Which is all great, but if you don't give Me the correct information or clue Me in on the things that I should know, you can't be pissed at Me later for not reading your mind.

It's this last part that I think Jeff is talking about. Those kinds of problems tend to happen among casual players than folks who are in a dynamic. As a casual player, I wouldn't be doing consent/non-consent play with somebody I had just met. If I happened to see Kana and lw in a public play space and she was screaming no, no, no, I probably wouldn't think a thing of it.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 12:59:48 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

If I happened to see Kana and lw in a public play space and she was screaming no, no, no, I probably wouldn't think a thing of it.


That's one thing I don't do when we are playing at a bdsm club. Yeah, I usually will be crying and screaming at the top of my lungs from the pain but I would never tell him to stop or say no. I have no desire to embarrass or cause problems for him in public. I have a little bit of common sense and self control not to do such things even I am in pain or subspace.

Self control is a wondrous thing.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:25:59 PM   
SacredDepravity


Posts: 270
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity
Predators exist. There's no getting around it, but they only multiply when there is an atrocious abundance of prey laying down and baring their necks right before them. If we want fewer predators, then we have to quit producing prey. Starvation keeps the predator moving on to more fertile hunting grounds.


If you get off on being prey then don't complain when you get eaten. That seems pretty obvious to me.




Now there is a world of difference between predator/prey dynamics as opposed to someone being predatory upon someone who is unwittingly, yet willfully, being prey. If you don't know what drives you to bad situations and to the label of victim over and over again, then you'd best figure it out before jumping into this pool. There are too many sharks and they come in all genders and orientations. It takes self awareness to understand what triggers your happy when it should be triggering your run away. Even more specifically, is when people don't know when to stand there ground or to get the heck out of there. Some relationships simply are not safe to try to save. Some people are alone for darn good reason. Red flags are not there to wave you on through the intersection. Ignoring them can be disasterous in any life situation and BDSM isn't any different.

I might sound preachy or high and mighty, but that's not the case at all. I am on the other side of being the very "prey" we are talking about here. No one has an excuse for the their bad behavior on the grounds that someone was "asking for it" or "too stupid to run away". Someone else's naivety, baggage, family background, lack of intelligence, lack of common sense, nor anything else allows a person to go be an asshole. At the same time, how many times can you keep messing up the game of life before you can honestly assess that YOU are part of the problem? I will tell you from hard experience, the answer is many, many, MANY times. Most will finally have a situation so bad as to finally wake them up and motivate them to change their own destructive patterns. For me it took disaster, crisis, introspection, therapy, medication for a time, and some good old fashioned anger to finally break the cycle. I have been here before, but I may as well start from scratch because there is little to no semblance between the person that used to be and who I am now. NONE. (singular wit and mischief aside...only the good parts that is).

Unfortunately, there are those doomed to play the victim forever because they can never learn that they are the creators of their own reality. If you say, "I dunno", "If you want to", "No, I don't have any medical issues", "sure let's play...What's your name again?", get ready to be a "victim". I stepped out of victimhood the moment I asked, "Given this are you into that?", "This is out because...", "NO!", "Stop showing your ass because you are putting us both in a bad situation." It didn't happen in a thunderbolt, but it did happen. The reason it is easier to stay the victim is because people coddle you and comfort you when what you really need is a swift kick in the ass and the voice of reason. There are enough chorus is of "It's all so and so's fault and you did nothing wrong" to drown out the "Get your head out of your ass and you didn't do anything right either" camp. We enable victimhood through best intentions sometimes. I had plenty of warning had I bothered to listen. Why on earth didn't I listen? It is simple. I wasn't ready to hear it.

Predator: I love to do x.
Prey: I dunno. Do we have to?
Predator: Yes. You like x don't you?
Prey: I dunno. Whatever.
*Predator does x*
Prey: Holy crap, I can't believe you did x to me. I told you I didn't like x and you did it anyway.
Predator: You only said, 'I dunno' and 'Whatever' when I asked you about x.
Prey: And NO MEANS NO
Predator: But you didn't say no. You said 'I dunno' and 'Whatever'
Prey: And just what part of NO is unclear to you?
*Predator walks away in handcuffs confused as to exactly what the heck happened*
Prey: Can you believe that person did x to me. I hate x.
Person 1: Poor thing! That's awful.
Person 2: I hope he got his ass arrested for that shit.
Person 3: If he's not in jail, I certainly hope you dump his ass. He's a predator.
Person 4: Did you tell him you hated x?
Prey: I dunno. Whatever.
*Huggles all around for Prey, Person 1,2, and 3*

STOP LAUGHING!!! It happens AAAALLLLLL the time!

SD

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:30:43 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		SD.. that is a BRILLIANT post!!

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Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:32:13 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		oh yeah! We see it all the time on here and at bdsm parties and even with our "vanilla" friends. It's extremely common. We've become a society that thrives on being victims and martyrs.

When people start doing that to me after something bad happens I will usually chime in telling that I had a hand in the incident as well so I can't solely blame so and so. It's not right and it's not going to help me to learn my lesson or get something from it. I don't want someone saying "ohh..I'm so sorry. He got what he deserved". It's just not morally or ethically correct.

Welcome to the coddling society.


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Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:36:09 PM   
SacredDepravity


Posts: 270
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

SD.. that is a BRILLIANT post!!


Yeah, experience is one merciless, evil, bitch, mistress of a teacher.

My apologies to all the lovely mistresses....

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:40:41 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		lifestyle does not trump LIFE, IMO, SD.... *grin*

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to SacredDepravity)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:41:12 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


I open up the toybag and ask the bottom if there are any toys that they are opposed to or don't want used.
(Canes more than anything else get a "no".) I let them see the various floggers and which weights and styles
might be too much for them. We talk about sting and thud. Metal and leather. Good sensations and bad.
(The worst reply to any of this is "I don't know".)


Would the end result of an "I don't know" answer be that the toy remains in the bag, or is it
more appealing to you as the Top to be the first one offering them experience with said toy?
I'm curious as to why it is considered the worst reply, and am imagining it to be because it
leaves the decision making solely in the hands of the Top?

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When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:43:11 PM   
SacredDepravity


Posts: 270
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

lifestyle does not trump LIFE, IMO, SD.... *grin*



One can try, but it is a fool's bet. Another bitchy life lesson.


(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:45:02 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		IME, poise, the "I don't know" is often a passive aggresive way of saying "I HATE IT in a NOT HAPPY WAY!!!!". I can't speak for LadyP, obviously, but when I hear "I don't know", I sigh, and put the implement away. I am NOT taking chances that the bottom really means that they don't know,,,

maybe that's just me...

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:52:06 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline 		That would have been my course of action as well, if I were ever a Top. Which to me, makes
the "I don't know" response pretty easy to deal with, by just never bringing it out of the bag.
I was curious about why it would be considered the worst response because it seems the easiest
to deal with, (or not deal with, as is the case!) if that makes sense.




_____________________________

When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/11/2012 1:57:03 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		poise, to me it is the worst response because it IS so ambiguous.

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 80
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