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RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:23:49 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Jeff, you're not a BDSM type of guy, right? So really what we're talking about is here not the same thing, though I do agree with what you've said on its own. Just speaking as an edge player, and as a person who really doesn't naturally want to ask for permission, I don't think "don't rape your playmates or violate their consent by ignoring negotiated boundaries for the set time you are together" is all that much to ask. Whoops! Silly me.

We're talking apples and oranges. I am SOOO in agreement with you on what you wrote.

On the other hand, I don't think saying to some bottom, "If you're gonna negotiate with me you have to do it in good faith and from an unmuddied state so you can consent." is too much to ask either. Nor do I think that expecting the bottom to provide useful information that there is NO WAY I could have or even think to have (such as, "when I go into subspace nothing I say from that point on can be trusted") is too much to ask.

In other words, "good faith" goes both ways. It's the idea that there is no such expectation on the part of the precious little flowers that gets me riled. Actually, it doesn't "get me riled". It just makes me see them as ticking time bombs that it's best to be far, far, far away from. When they go off you never know how it'll happen and who'll be included in the collateral damage. Apparently, Canada is not far enough away from NYC to protect John Baku.

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Post #: 41

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:23:51 PM

LadyHibiscus

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If you are into crushing delicate flowers? Then yes, you really want subs to think they are delicate flowers. So you encourage that kind of thinking.

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Post #: 42

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:30:30 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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Sorry, Jeff, once again you are blaming the top for not eliciting enough information. Normally I really appreciate your input. You remind us all that our relationships are, after all, relationships first and foremost.

I think on this one you're calling it wrong. When it comes to casual play, BOTH parties have to be responsible.

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Post #: 43

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:36:12 PM

JeffBC

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CP:

One of us is reading one of our posts wrong. I'm with you on the both parties having responsibility thing... at least in a setting like we're discussing in this thread... some semi-random encounter.

Here's what I think.

The top should solicit as much information as they can... and then ACT on the information they get.... honorably.
The bottom should provide as much information as they have... and then act with integrity later.
Both should recognize that the problem with communication is that it's never perfect and this shit can go wrong.

THEN, after all that, if one party thinks the other hasn't acted in good faith then so be it and they may do whatever they wish to rectify that.

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Post #: 44

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:38:43 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
As I said in a later post, I think what happened was that I already knew and was squicked by this stuff and reading that post was like a flashback. I'm over it already. Yup, there are some ridiculous things going on out in play spaces. I just need to not get involved in them.... not even remotely... then all will be fine for me. ROFL, I was thinking this morning as I was looking for what play events are happening this week... easy to fix. I'll just find a collar somewhere and wear it to the play event. That'll keep me far, far away from any bottoms.

Yeah. Good luck with fooling people with that.

quote:

I definitely disagree on the culture of victimhood. I've seen it EVERYWHERE. From the very first moment I ran into [online] BDSM in SecondLife. I see it here on these boards constantly. It's a large part of why I resonate so much with LW & Kana. If you create a culture where it's OK to be a precious little flower just waiting to be crushed then you're gonna end up with a lot of those crushed flowers. I want Carol to have NO part of that at all. I see it as directly damaging in a really, really insidious sort of way. I've said it before on these boards. People rise or fall to the level of expectation of their leaders. So if the community leaders perceive subs/bottoms as precious flowers then that's what you're gonna get. I don't want Carol drinking that kool-aid even just a bit.

Sometimes, I'm awfully glad that I'm a female top. As much as I HATE the genders being treated differently in the world of BDSM, I'm also not blind to where I reap the benefits. Nobody looks at clip and thinks he isn't big enough to take it. Not the pain, not the control, not any darn thing that may be a part of the dynamic. That wouldn't necessarily be the same if I was a dude.

quote:

Insofar as vigilante justice. I'd like to rethink my stand on that. In SMALL communities I think self-policing like that is highly effective. I see no reason why that wouldn't work out pretty well given a sufficiently small community population. It turns into witch hunts and lynch mobs when the size of the community in question can no longer support the ad hoc communication required for it to work out that way. I suspect the old structures won't work now that BDSM has come out of the closet and the community sizes are scaled up DRAMATICALLY.

The big communities of today started out small once. As a leather person, I have to recognize that. It also contributes to why a lot of people have gone underground in the last couple of decades. I doubt we can get back to self policing at this point, but it was rather effective in years past.

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Post #: 45

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:41:54 PM

LadyHibiscus

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Just speaking of my own community, LP, self policing did NOTHING of any import. The best abusers were the "leaders". Same shit, different day.

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Post #: 46

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:44:32 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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Ah my bad then.

I agree, both parties have to be responsible for eliciting as much info as they can, with the understanding there are no guarantees, shit happens and shit can go wrong.

Our ability to effectively police ourselves is always going to be compromised as long as so many of the things we do are against the law or on society's extreme edge of what is acceptable behavior.

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Post #: 47

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:48:37 PM

sexyred1

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If something bad happens to me in a scene (and it has once with someone I trusted), it is 100% the other person's fault because no matter how deep into subspace I can get, I still am able to say no or use my safeword. If he chooses not to listen, it is his fault. I was tied up, so I could not physically stop him that time. I never let him tie me up again.

One thing that LadyPact mentioned which is worth repeating, is that in some situations, like consensual force scenes, no sometimes does not mean no, so that can get subjective to the people involved. However....I think no can mean no only in that respect but if you scream your head off and use a safeword the person needs to understand the scene shifted to a no fly zone.

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Post #: 48

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:49:28 PM

LadyHibiscus

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It's so easy for the sane and reasonable to say these things, isn't it?

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Post #: 49

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 1:51:41 PM

JeffBC

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Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Sometimes, I'm awfully glad that I'm a female top. As much as I HATE the genders being treated differently in the world of BDSM, I'm also not blind to where I reap the benefits. Nobody looks at clip and thinks he isn't big enough to take it. Not the pain, not the control, not any darn thing that may be a part of the dynamic. That wouldn't necessarily be the same if I was a dude.

*laughs* I get what you're saying. But man oh man. The way my mind works is surely very different. I don't really care which one of you is physically larger. I care which of you is more dangerous. It's EASY for me to see the [potential] peril that Clip is in regards you. If I was in charge of monitoring you two and I didn't know you I'd be watching pretty closely.

edited to add
OK, faux collar won't work. I have a better plan. On the way to the event I'll stop at a local sex shop and get one of those $39.95 BDSM play sets with a plastic whip & handcuffs and hang them on my belt. Before I go I'll print myself up a t-shirt that reads, "Fear me". Now surely THAT coupled with some serious strutting and posing oughta keep them away *laughs*.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/10/2012 1:55:11 PM >

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Post #: 50

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 3:26:41 PM

kitkat105

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I don't know the full story, I've only glanced over some of the writings about it on FetL, but this is pretty much the reason why I would be very wary to play casually with others. I trust Odeen, more than any other human being, but even with my full trust, he still worries he might inadvertently harm me in some way when we play. We are definitely both responsible for each others actions and communicating at all times with each other.

With that said, if 2 people have communicated an idea for a scene, with boundaries noted, if the Top goes outside what is negotiated in my opinion it is an abuse of power.

Yes, there are victims everywhere. Some very genuine, other people who just feel sorry for themselves. I don't believe complaining or feeling hurt by something you did not consent to is fostering a culture of victim hood.

< Message edited by kitkat105 -- 8/10/2012 3:30:01 PM >

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Post #: 51

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 3:29:55 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

That's actually not what the consent discussions have been about, LW.

Here's an example, from REAL LIFE (tm). Two people are playing, he is a known entity, event organizer kind of guy. She is tripping away in whatever dimension you subspacers go, and while she is there, he decides HEY! Imma stick my hand where she SAID I shouldn't put it!! Trauma ensues. Who is at fault? Is it her, for "going into subspace"? Is it him, for just ignoring their negotiations? Is it her, for thinking that she could trust him?

Etc. Ad infinitum. No means no, but what do you do when you don't have the wherewithal to say no? What if you CHANGE YOUR MIND?

It's been a fucking minefield.

Did you know that sticking your hand in someone's cooter when they are tied up and cannot protest IS NOT RAPE? Yep.

Damn, I love Detroit.

I'm really glad that I'm lacking the submissive gene, because at one point the guy would have had to untie me, and I'd hate to have to explain to a judge why I ripped the guy's dick off and shoved it down his throat...

One one hand, yes it is a responsibility for both, as long as both sides make informed choices, it should be up to them, screaming "abuse" because something you found totally hot in your fantasy didn't work quite so well IRL is bullshit, but if you have agreements, those agreements should be kept, no ifs and no buts, and if the agreement was that he keeps away from her couchie, he better sticks to it.

In general I hold the top a bit more responsible as subs can get carried away in subspace, I recall playing with masochists who were flying so high, they begged for more lashes and harder whippings, and I knew it would have been dangerous to the point of damaging, if they're away with the fairies in subspace, it's my responsibility to make sure that they're safe and not permanently scared. If I can't do that, I shouldn't play on that level.

Now if somebody says "Give me 20 of your best, I really want it, no matter how I scream and try to safeword out, that is what I want" and he decides then that he didn't like it and I didn't stop when he asked to, that's BS and he should have thought before, he was clear headed when he decided that!

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Post #: 52

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 4:25:11 PM

poise

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Thank you for including the post here for me to read, Jeff. I noticed your edit
shortly before signing off and tending to some errands away from home.

Although I don’t participate in casual play, it’s easy enough for me to imagine
doing so, and I have no doubt that I would be fully cognizant of the risks involved
before consenting, and adult enough in the aftermath of an “oh shit, did I really let
him do that to me” moment to take responsibility for allowing things to progress.

What kind of boggles my mind in all this is that by calling themselves a victim, they
are implying that the person they willfully and voluntarily consented to play with in
the first place had bad intentions from the get go, and that seems to be such a contradiction,
considering they are all in a place to “play”. I can’t imagine anyone intentionally wanting a
scene to go bad, either before, during, or after.

Lastly, while I agree completely with the message, I am concerned that posts such
as the one you referenced will overshadow the fact that there actually are true victims out there,
and I continue to hope that they have the strength enough to speak out without fear of being
shunned by their community.

Really really lastly, seeing how “delicate little flower” seems to have such a negative
reaction here, I’m thinking of changing the opening prose in my profile. Egads!

< Message edited by poise -- 8/10/2012 4:27:12 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 4:53:24 PM

LadyHibiscus

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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Poise, we delicate flowers must stand!!

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Post #: 54

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 5:03:09 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I'm really glad that I'm lacking the submissive gene, because at one point the guy would have had to untie me, and I'd hate to have to explain to a judge why I ripped the guy's dick off and shoved it down his throat...

I have the submissive gene but I'd probably do the same!

As for delicate flowers, well I'm always teasing the Mister to be careful with me because I'm a delicate flower...

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Post #: 55

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 6:15:55 PM

littlewonder

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my experience from play parties is that these casual couples that hook up, talk to each other for about 10 minutes about general shit that has nothing to do with bdsm, think they connect on some superficial level and neither one has negotiated anything at all. The sub never says anything about what they can and cannot take or what they want done, the Dom/me never talks about what they want to do. The two just play and do what they want and just let their horniness rule the play.

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Post #: 56

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 6:21:17 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

What kind of boggles my mind in all this is that by calling themselves a victim, they
are implying that the person they willfully and voluntarily consented to play with in
the first place had bad intentions from the get go, and that seems to be such a contradiction,
considering they are all in a place to “play”. I can’t imagine anyone intentionally wanting a
scene to go bad, either before, during, or after.

But it didn't go bad from the rapist's point of view. He got what he wanted and didn't care if he got to do it again with her. And since he's well known, he figured everybody would be with Jeff on claiming 'buyers remorse' and that he'd get off scot free. And could do it again with someone else in the future.

There really are bad people out there.

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Post #: 57

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 6:58:44 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

my experience from play parties is that these casual couples that hook up, talk to each other for about 10 minutes about general shit that has nothing to do with bdsm, think they connect on some superficial level and neither one has negotiated anything at all. The sub never says anything about what they can and cannot take or what they want done, the Dom/me never talks about what they want to do. The two just play and do what they want and just let their horniness rule the play.

Idiots on both sides of the kneel then, before I casually play with somebody I want to know their experience and I want to know any health concerns, having to call an ambulance in the middle of play is a mood killer. I'm actually less interested in preferences and more interested in hard limits, and I make sure s/he has a safeword, the rest is starting slow and judging reactions.

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Post #: 58

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 7:07:47 PM

poise

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

But it didn't go bad from the rapist's point of view. He got what he wanted and didn't care if he got to do
it again with her. And since he's well known, he figured everybody would be with Jeff on claiming 'buyers remorse'
and that he'd get off scot free. And could do it again with someone else in the future.
There really are bad people out there.

I am well aware that there are bad people out there, hence my paragraph following the one you quoted.
However, I am not seeing rape discussed at all in the post that Jeff copied here, but the ease in which some
people will cry rape, simply because they failed to communicate properly during a scene, and things went
further than they anticipated. Here is an example of what motivated my response.

"I didn't tell you, and you didn't know, and I didn't say anything while it was happening, but what you
did I didn't want, and you should have known that, even though I was saying you could, because well...
it's your responsibility to know better than I do what I want. And besides...I was in subspace/headspace/
dissociated/whatever the fuck...and wasn't in my right mind when I said you could.
So...I didn't really consent to that."

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Post #: 59

RE: Culture of Victimhood - 8/10/2012 7:37:08 PM

JeffBC

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@poise
.... and I might come to all those conclusions three years later.

Yeah. That. Also, note Des's instant acceptance that there is a crime which has occurred and a rapist which is getting off scot free if we don't DOSOMETHING(tm). Yeah well... I'm the rapist she's gonna be labeling which is why, momentarily, this squicked me out.

Once I got over my utter shock at the mob scene though I came to my senses. Most of this I already knew. I mean seriously... sex, drugs, rock & roll, all happening outside the law. What could possibly go wrong? And it's not like I hadn't already seen PLENTY of evidence of the generally high-school shenanigans these honorable adults get up to also. I've even seen some of these mock trials and kangaroo courts.

Out of all this though I sure as hell prefer Kana & LW's view of "safety" to the "safety" being taught in the community in terms of protecting Carol. In terms of protecting me from Des & Co though... that's a bit trickier. I suspect just plain avoiding the whole thing is probably the only way to really not get tarred by it. Or, if I wish to go wallowing in the muck, I need to accept the risk that some of that muck is almost certainly going to stick to me.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Post #: 60

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