RE: Culture of Victimhood

RE: Culture of Victimhood (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 2:05:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Maybe the 2 protectors came along after the slave posted about the event with the idiot master? I assumed that actually and it was my point. quote: Imo, if guys wanna blame the sub/slave "victim" and such, then they shouldnt wonder when subs/slaves are super cautious.. the idiot masters make it harder and spoil it for the rest of you guys.. Just sayin'.. Well, one part of this thread could be summed up as "idiots make it harder for us all". Both real incidents and false accusations mess with the orderly flow of good hot sweaty fun. In this case though, my concern isn't that. It's the other angle. If you step back from the BDSM koolaid for a moment what happened is some woman was in a break up and it was not even a very long relationship. What does she need protection from? Why does she have "protectors" not "friends"? What message is that sending? For me, I want partners who are not that vulnerable and have not been trained to be even more vulnerable. I don't want a trained victim. I want a mature, competent woman who can cope with ... well... ordinary life events that the whole world copes with. And SD... I said "red flag which would need inquiry". So I'd ask you about what happened, why you thought you needed protection, what was the protection from, etc. Depending on how you answered those questions I'd be forming my opinions of your trained victim status. In your case, based upon the amount of self-awareness you've shown in this thread alone, whatever did happen with your protectors I'd probably be fine with. But per your own post earlier... this domly dom does not ignore his own red flags. They are there for a reason.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 2:53:11 PM)
Oh have you ever seen somebody who discovered BDSM later in life? They really go into a subfrenzy where they need to be protected from themselves, they might not take advise from a friend, by giving it the name of "protector" - which is really just a friend looking out for them - in their mind you have a "status" and can call them back on the carpet. I'm seriously not being sexist but women over 35 or so who lived a vanilla life and then find out that they are actually submissives, I don't know what happens to them but most of them completely lose their mind for a few months up to a few years, especially if they do not have a partner and are looking for a relationship. Not a clue why it happens, but it does happen.

SacredDepravity -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 3:19:50 PM)
For the most part, people listed as protectors and those that are protected I get the same red flag thing you do, Jeff. And I would handle it much the same way. And I WILL NOT talk to someone's "protector" as a gobetween to the person I'm actually trying to get to know. Not gonna happen. No way, no how. And they can also tell me themselves if they are interested, not interested, willing to move forward, etc. I DO NOT take that information from the mouth of some "protector" collector. I have no problem with someone else reading messages I send or talking to me together with their charge. What I will not do is get to know someone through the lens of someone whose motives may not be pure. I get protector/mentor type exchanges. I don't need it defined as such. If I trust someone, then I will consider their opinion. They don't need some title to merit such. If I really felt I needed to utilize a friend in this way, I'd do it. They'd do it willingly because they care about me. If I am truly in a place where I am concerned I am making bad decisions, I am going to step away and get myself together. Then I will come back and maybe hold a hand stepping back in the pool and then only waist deep and only when the sun is shining and the winds are calm. I don't have to drown twice to see the light. SD

LadyConstanze -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 3:44:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity I get protector/mentor type exchanges. I don't need it defined as such. If I trust someone, then I will consider their opinion. They don't need some title to merit such. If I really felt I needed to utilize a friend in this way, I'd do it. They'd do it willingly because they care about me. If I am truly in a place where I am concerned I am making bad decisions, I am going to step away and get myself together. Then I will come back and maybe hold a hand stepping back in the pool and then only waist deep and only when the sun is shining and the winds are calm. I don't have to drown twice to see the light. SD Two things: 1. You're not in a sub frenzy 2. You are not female, you're not brand new and you seem to be clear headed I can't say I understand what happens to a lot of women nearing middle age when they discover their submissive nature for the first time and are without a partner, but I've seen it over and over again. Eventually they grow out of it, but while they aren't, it's a good idea...

SacredDepravity -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 3:54:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: SacredDepravity I get protector/mentor type exchanges. I don't need it defined as such. If I trust someone, then I will consider their opinion. They don't need some title to merit such. If I really felt I needed to utilize a friend in this way, I'd do it. They'd do it willingly because they care about me. If I am truly in a place where I am concerned I am making bad decisions, I am going to step away and get myself together. Then I will come back and maybe hold a hand stepping back in the pool and then only waist deep and only when the sun is shining and the winds are calm. I don't have to drown twice to see the light. SD Two things: 1. You're not in a sub frenzy 2. You are not female, you're not brand new and you seem to be clear headed I can't say I understand what happens to a lot of women nearing middle age when they discover their submissive nature for the first time and are without a partner, but I've seen it over and over again. Eventually they grow out of it, but while they aren't, it's a good idea... Actually I am two out of the three. I am an unpartnered female, mid 30's and about losing my mess to get out there and play, but not new, so clear headed enough to know that it is easy to make errs in judgement right now, so I'm glad to have good friends to call upon. I did lose my mind the first time at the rodeo. Bucking bronco and lesson learned. LOL I am not putting down the concept of protectors. I just think, first of all, someone I can trust enough to do that job doesn't need some title to do it and, further, many out there protecting are the very type to avoid. Some are on the up and up. It is still up to me to make a good decision with or without the opinion of a protector. SD

LadyConstanze -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 4:20:36 PM)
I think you get too hung up on the title, and sorry for not checking out your profile, I was under the impression that you are male, but back to the title, I think it's just a bit easier to tell somebody politely to take a hike as the "protector" (though I am also not very keen on the title) than as a mere friend. When somebody is overwhelmed and completely new to it, they might just miss a lot of red flags. I went to fetish or BDSM parties with people who were there for the first time and we just pretended for the time being that I'm their dominant (or you could call it protector) to help them ease in and avoid being overwhelmed and maybe agreeing to something they don't want to do because some smooth talking idiot pulls the wool over their eyes. Ideally the person should be able to make those judgement calls for him or herself, but I see it more as just a bit of assistance while they are figuring out things. Somebody who's been in the scene for years and still can't make those judgement calls and still needs a protector - yeah, I'd doubt their mental abilities and motives a lot.

tj444 -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 4:44:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Of course a "protector" can be a predator but the way I've seen it handled quite often it makes sense, for example newbie sub doesn't really know much about the scene, attends workshops and gets on with a person but they don't have a BDSM relationship, until newbie sub finds his/her feet, the other person acts as a protector. I've done that with friends who didn't want to be impolite and tell another dominant that they don't want to play with him/her, it's handy to have the "protector" around who's officially your dominant for the evening, if the subbie has experience, you usually just have a sign, i.e. person who might be a bit intoxicated comes and asks if they want to play, they say they have to ask me, subbie touches ear, means "Keep them away from me", so I give an excuse like "Oh no, he's not allowed, sorry about that" - solves long arguments and hurt feelings. Also new subs often can be in a sub frenzy where they don't really use good judgement, somebody who's not interested in having them as a personal sub but who's a friend can act as a protector and make judgement calls and then also step in if they feel it's going too far. Of course it can be abused, everything can, but in most cases it's a better idea than letting a newbie run loose. If you do that with friends or people you know then that is one thing, you might help them get their toes wet without them getting in too deep, too fast but many of the protectors i have seen listed in profiles are not even located in the same city, may not have ever met in person and may not even know the person online for very long.. Its almost like someone asking to be a "friend" on this site, when they may not have emailed you even once or engaged you on the forum.. "Hi, I read what that terrible dom did, let me be your protector".. If that is how the protectors are picked then that is just as risky as meeting the idiot master.. You obviously have experience, etc to be a good protector but imo, many of these online protectors dont..

LadyConstanze -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:01:44 PM)
The online thing is a bit weird, but then a lot of things online are more than weird... As I said, not keen on the label, maybe mentor would be better but even that sounds presumptuous... Just talking about RL, you know if they're going into a club and there is a reasonable looking woman there who's submissive and new - the amount of attention she gets can be seriously overwhelming for her, by having somebody with her, she can take that step back, avoid being overwhelmed and just sit back, look around, ask questions and get to know people without feeling that she needs to take part in anything. If she has somebody with her, that's more or less a buffer and if she's getting a bit uncomfortable also a really easy way out without being impolite "Sorry, need to go and see/check with my protector/mentor/dominant..." Guys who try to discourage her from that and get her to play with them, well, good thing to avoid them, some will try to talk to you and you can carefully sound them out about their experience level, if the "protected" then wants to play with somebody, you are still in a position to step in when you feel they are going to far or don't know what they are doing, if they refuse to listen to you, you just call on a DM... DMs aren't watching every single person play, especially not at very very large and busy parties and as a newbie it makes sense to have somebody nearby who'll go "Sorry, that was a kidney shot - game over"

tj444 -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:08:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC For me, I want partners who are not that vulnerable and have not been trained to be even more vulnerable. I don't want a trained victim. I want a mature, competent woman who can cope with ... well... ordinary life events that the whole world copes with. Being female, I read Dom's profiles & emails and a lot of guys do want that, they want the doormat from day 1.. I am not into S&M and I am not a door mat.. and that eliminates a lot of men on here for me.. makes me sorta wonder how many mature competent women there are on here (outside of the forums.. where they obviously hang out [;)] )..

tj444 -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:15:46 PM)
I actually do like the term mentor a lot better, the term protector sorta implies the protectee is a victim already, not simply someone new trying to figure things out..

LadyConstanze -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:35:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 I actually do like the term mentor a lot better, the term protector sorta implies the protectee is a victim already, not simply someone new trying to figure things out.. Agreed, but if you are in a situation where a dominant (imagine "superstudlydomcuziwearleatherpants" or "shewhohadafewdrinkstoomany") gets a bit too eager and tells you to not get involved, they don't seem to put much value on "mentor", if you say proctor or dominant, it seems to have more impact for some odd reason. I recall being in LA for the time of DomCom and went to one of the parties there in a dungeon, it's super full and a lot of DMs, had a friend with me who's quite an experienced switch but more of a sub, he asked me if I could act as his protector or domme for the evening, because there was a woman after him who was seriously under the influence of something and he worried that if he'd turn her down she'd create an ugly scene, so we had the "touch your ear if you don't want to play with that person" rule, not because he didn't dare to, he just wanted to avoid something that could potentially get ugly (and it was a pretty good call). I ended up chatting with one of the DMs because I saw a lot of play where I went "Woahhh, hitting all the wrong places" and he said they can only get involved if they see it directly, that is why they are moving around a lot, but they can't be everywhere and when they're in the room the unsafe players all of a sudden behave, they leave the room and it goes on.

Kana -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:40:16 PM)
quote: Being female, I read Dom's profiles & emails and a lot of guys do want that, they want the doormat from day 1 Yeah, but that's just the fantasy. Then they get involved and realize they hafta do something else the remaining 24 hrs and 59 minutes, so they better get someone who they can get along with-the same way they don't think about periods, or sweat, or social diseases for gangbang fetishists or heating bills for those perpetually naked slavegals.

DeviantlyD -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:45:22 PM)
Dontchya mean 23 hours and 59 minutes? teasing grin Of course...it could be you live in a different dimension...one where 25 hours (or more) constitutes a day. :)

Kana -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:48:23 PM)
I move fast, like Superman making the earth rotate backwards, but in her twat

JeffBC -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:48:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Two things: 1. You're not in a sub frenzy 2. You are not female, you're not brand new and you seem to be clear headed But that's the question. IS it a good idea? Or might it be a better idea to say, "Look, we're juggling chainsaws in here. If you're not with it enough to juggle chainsaws then what you need to do is step outside and come back when you are able." Or is it better to put them in the hands of some "protector" who may or may not have any interest in protecting anything and may or may not actually improve the subs actual safety in terms of fixing the instability. But I do gotta say... it's exactly the instability you're talking about which would make these women "red flags" to me. Now you've brought up another question though... the term "sub frenzy". What a cute way to say "a complete failure of adult thinking". I wonder if it would be more helpful if instead of saying, "Oh, she's just having sub frenzy" to say, "Oh, she's one jacked up unit right now." I readily admit that I'm exploring this idea of who the verbiage shapes the culture so I'm looking at everything through that lens but hey... why is such a total failure of judgement tolerated in this venue where it sure as hell wouldn't be in most others I know -- especially ones where there was significant danger..both legal and physical?

littlewonder -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:50:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC ~fast reply~ Well how appropriate. There I am over on another site and I read the perfect thread. Slave gets hooked up with idiot master. Idiot master does idiot thing. Slave comes passive-aggressively whining to boards and receives WAY too much sympathy. I'm watching a victim being trained. I am coming up with a new theory though and so I went and checked her profile. Yup... sure enough... she's got not one but TWO protectors. My new theory is that if I was ever looking for a new slave I should ask, "Have you ever had a protector?" If the answer is "yes" then red flag -- inquire at length for more details. I'm coming to see protectors as "victim trainers". I sooooo love this! It's what I've been saying for years! The idea of a protector just always makes me laugh and the next thing I think is "yeah, I wouldn't even wanna be anywhere near this person or her "protector" ". When I see the word "protector" I wonder how they survived meeting men in the past? They never picked up a guy at a bar or went out for dinner with a total stranger maybe someone they met on a edating site or as a blind date? How did they handle that but now suddenly they can't handle meeting a guy who likes to have kinky sex?? I mean, really...what's the difference? Did she have a protector at the bar too??? Did she have one that vetted the blind date for her to tell her if he is safe or not? It just seems really really weird to me and makes me think one of two things...she's either thinking bdsm is somehow magical and different and "special" or she's extremely naive and has never ever ever gone out on a date or fucked before.

tj444 -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:52:20 PM)
ok, I see your point on that.. maybe the term "bodyguard" would work??? [:D]

tj444 -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:57:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: Being female, I read Dom's profiles & emails and a lot of guys do want that, they want the doormat from day 1 Yeah, but that's just the fantasy. Then they get involved and realize they hafta do something else the remaining 24 hrs and 59 minutes, so they better get someone who they can get along with-the same way they don't think about periods, or sweat, or social diseases for gangbang fetishists or heating bills for those perpetually naked slavegals. well, if that is just a fantasy act they put on in their profiles and emails, it causes me to block them.. [>:] their loss... so counterproductive for them.. but then i dont want a Dom that dumb anyway.. [:D]

LadyConstanze -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 5:59:16 PM)
It doesn't happen to just females, also males and nobody is overly fond of that, but it's basically they discover something and they dive into it because they are overwhelmed and yeah, they don't think clearly, so if you tell them "Oy, don't do anything, take your time..." it doesn't grip. The mentality is a bit like that of a teenage boy who discovered sex and you'd put him on an island of nymphomaniacs - of course they aren't thinking clearly. You know we can argue until the cows come home about it, we both end up agreeing that it's not ideal and they SHOULD be able to make that call themselves, but there also shouldn't be any poverty or world hunger or discrimination, yadda, yadda, doesn't make it so. It's not that they are completely stupid, it's simply that they are overwhelmed, they found something that resonates deeply in them, something they have been missing all their lives and their first reaction is to indulge, it kinda makes sense to make sure that they don't get harmed and give them a bit of guidance until they actually know what they are dealing with. Take 50 Shades for example, I can see how tons and tons of people read it and think "Oh, that's it, I'm into BDSM, yayyyyyy" and they go into a club, they did their reading, they have heard about consensuality, all that, they agree to be tied up and whipped - some of them possibly have no clue that the person with the whip bought that brand new and had minimal practise, doesn't mean that they should end up with ruined kidneys a few years down the line. You know when hormones come into play, they brain doesn't always work as well as it should.

sheisreeds -> RE: Culture of Victimhood (8/12/2012 6:06:37 PM)
If someone can't stand on their own two feet, make rational decisions, speak up, and take responsibility for their actions I don't want part it in. This is why I don't really use my FL account anymore, this is a lot of why we don't play with others anymore. I'm tired of people taking consent to the extreme limit. Saw an FL post with a girl losing her shit because someone touched her neck without permission. All this BS to me just undermines sexual assault and rape survivors. Part of being a feminist, and fighting for gender equality means not needing my hand held.

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