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RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 4:46:24 PM

SpaceSpank

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It's up to what you two discussed. And how rules were defined.

If you have poorly defined rules, you have problems like this.

If it's an explicit never without my permission... then she should not drink. There are plenty who do not drink alcohol, even when out with friends who do.

But if you wish this to be something more akin to "Never drink alcohol without permission when alone or with me" then define it as such.

This one situation may have shown that you need to adjust the rules, or it may enforce that you need to ensure they are defined properly.

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Post #: 21

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 5:04:10 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delasour

As an observer I would say that you should obey your Dom when with him, but if he doesn't allow you to have a drink with your friends he's an insecure fellow who doesn't really understand the give and take of relationships. Bdsm or otherwise.

Pardon Me, but bullshit.

This isn't about the D type not allowing a drink with friends. It is about a standing general order in the dynamic that says the sub *must* ask for permission for something frivolous. It doesn't have anything to do with insecurities. It has to do with the stipulations of the dynamic.

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Post #: 22

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 5:13:43 PM

NuevaVida

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~ Fast Reply ~

If there is a rule in place and I want to ask for leniency and can't reach him, then I obey the rule and skip the leniency.

What we've done in some cases is established an "If I can't reach you" rule, to avoid confusion, poor judgments, etc.

On the rare occasion I do exercise poor judgment and do something he didn't want me doing, he let's me know his disappointment, makes his expectation clear, and we move forward. He knows my intentions are to do what's best for our relationship, so he doesn't get very bent over such things.

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Post #: 23

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 5:25:09 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucifyre

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

The important thing is that they both need to sit down and discuss what it is he wants from her when this kind of thing comes up.

Crux of the issue is this. It's easy to make up a set of rules without taking real life into account, but the "what ifs" need to discussed.

Sorry but in this particular instance (consuming alcohol) I hafta call BS. Like LadyP said, the agreement was entered into before the situation arose, therefor the rule still applies...need to OBTAIN permission before consuming. Rules don't change just because it's no fun for a night because you wanna go out and slosh it up with girlfriends.
Especially over something as easy as alcohol, the rule should remain, if the sub doesn't actually get the permission they should abstain.

I never said that the rule should be broken. I said that "what ifs" should be discussed to make it absolutely clear as to how those rules apply in real life.

Same here, I never said that the rule should be broken.
Expectations need to be clearly discussed, because not all D-types want the same behavior in the same set of circumstances.

Breaking a rule because he hasn't specified for every single possible contingency seems bad faith on the s-type's part.
However, it's both their responsibility to make sure the s-type has some sort of generic feel for how the D-type wants them to behave in circumstances that may not have been discussed to the letter... even if the D-type's expectation is "in doubt, stick to what you think the letter of what I want is, instead of what you think the intent of what I want it"... which in this case would have resulted in no alcohol.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/10/2012 5:28:12 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 5:51:42 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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Master has a rule that I am not allowed to drink coffee.
If I am out and I get a craving, I will text him asking if I can have one.
If I cannot reach him, then I assume the answer is no and I don't have that cup of coffee.

Now change that to alcohol and it would be the same for me.

it sounds to me like you're trying to find a loophole to give you permission to drink.
That never ever works out well and I would find it manipulative.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 8/10/2012 5:53:15 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 5:59:20 PM

DesFIP

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Then what we have here is a failure to communicate about what should happen when he can't be reached. They need to discuss how to handle things like this in the future.

If your department made a record number of sales for the quarter and your boss announces this and says he's taking everyone to dinner, it is not appropriate for her not to be able to go and have a glass of wine with dinner. What's she supposed to say, my master won't let me go?

This should have been discussed at the time the rule was put in place. Can she go out with friends? Can she have just one drink? Or whatever.

If she's an alcoholic, then he shouldn't take her on because she's submissive to her addiction and not to him. If he's paranoid about her having one drink with a friend and then picking up strange men when she has no such history, he has trust issues that he needs to address. And so on. Why did he put this rule in place?

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Post #: 26

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:01:55 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

If your department made a record number of sales for the quarter and your boss announces this and says he's taking everyone to dinner, it is not appropriate for her not to be able to go and have a glass of wine with dinner. What's she supposed to say, my master won't let me go?

She should say "thanks but I don't drink.". How hard is that????

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Post #: 27

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:05:37 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

She should say "thanks but I don't drink.". How hard is that????

When the op is a brand new dom and the sub has worked there for years and is known to take a drink at a holiday party, it's very hard.

The op is a dom, very new, and I can't tell from his profile if this is online only.

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Post #: 28

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:10:02 PM

LanceHughes

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Joined: 2/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanillaKinkie
I wonder if anyone can give me advice on the following topic.
<snipped>
The sub/slave has arranged with a vanilla friend to go out for a social evening where drinking may be involved.
<snipped>
However informs her Dom/Master in an email she plans to go out.
<snipped>

Nobody picked up on THIS ----> ^^^^^
part of the sloppy, sloppy dynamic.

Sub/slave/she "arranges" to go out.
If she can decide to go out without permission.... well, just were is this couple in the discussion of ANY rules?

Oh, and what everyone else said. LOL!

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Post #: 29

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:17:48 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

She should say "thanks but I don't drink.". How hard is that????

When the op is a brand new dom and the sub has worked there for years and is known to take a drink at a holiday party, it's very hard.

The op is a dom, very new, and I can't tell from his profile if this is online only.

So she says, thanks but no thanks or thanks but I'm not drinking tonight or thanks but I have to be up early tomorow or something like that. Again, what is so hard about it??? I mean there's no reason a "Master" has to ever come into play. I just see a lot of people making excuses for their behaviour.

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Post #: 30

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:18:49 PM

SeekerMA

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/4/2012
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The rule is that permission is required for drinking. No permission was given, therefore drinking isn't allowed. Since you say communication was impossible at the time, the sub/slave should consider what usually happens in such circumstances. Is permission given? Is it given, but with a condition to not consume more than X amount of alcohol? And how strict is the dom/master? Does he usually give out punishments based on the letter of the rule, or the spirit of it? If the sub/slave knows that typically the dom/master allows drinking, and isn't overly strict, then it would be reasonable for the sub/slave to have some drinks. Otherwise, no drinks should be consumed.

Though I'm curious, why was no other method of communication available besides an email? And why did she only say she plans to go out, rather than specifically ask about alcohol and whether she can consume some? Personally, I'd think a punishment is in order, since that email shows that she did not even attempt to acquire permission.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 31

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:19:58 PM

pyschosubmission

Posts: 1109
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From: Glasgow, Scotland
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Damn.. Good point LH!

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Post #: 32

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:22:56 PM

searching4mysir

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Joined: 6/16/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If your department made a record number of sales for the quarter and your boss announces this and says he's taking everyone to dinner, it is not appropriate for her not to be able to go and have a glass of wine with dinner. What's she supposed to say, my master won't let me go?

Depends on the dynamic. I would simply say "let me check to make sure my other half hasn't already made plans for us." Then I would call Master on the house phone and if I couldn't reach him the cell. I would request permission to go saying (if others are in earshot) "Honey, the office is going out to celebrate an achievement. Have you planned something for tonight or may I join them? Boss says he has a spectacular vintage he has been saving for this occasion". Master has no wish to out us to my boss or colleagues and if he wants me home he can tell me he has something planned (even if it is just cuddling on the couch watching movies...the boss doesn't need to know what exactly is planned) or he will most likely say "go, have fun, no more than one glass".

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Post #: 33

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:24:56 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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Yup, there have been times when I got together with a group and they wanted to make plans for something in the future. Each time I tell them let me check with my partner and make sure we don't already have plans. No one ever has a problem with it other than to laugh because they find it old fashioned and I just tell them I have an old fashioned relationship and I care enough about my partner to regard his feelings and schedule. After that they get all hush for some odd reason lol.

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Post #: 34

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:36:54 PM

searching4mysir

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Joined: 6/16/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Yup, there have been times when I got together with a group and they wanted to make plans for something in the future. Each time I tell them let me check with my partner and make sure we don't already have plans. No one ever has a problem with it other than to laugh because they find it old fashioned and I just tell them I have an old fashioned relationship and I care enough about my partner to regard his feelings and schedule. After that they get all hush for some odd reason lol.

And the men are probably secretly jealous that you show such consideration for your partner.

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Post #: 35

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 6:38:43 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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I dunno. It's a girl's group. No guys present. I just find it common sense to have consideration for your partner.

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Post #: 36

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 7:09:44 PM

Lucifyre

Posts: 1067
Joined: 3/27/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If your department made a record number of sales for the quarter and your boss announces this and says he's taking everyone to dinner, it is not appropriate for her not to be able to go and have a glass of wine with dinner. What's she supposed to say, my master won't let me go?

Even under this circumstance, I can STILL think of no real life situation where it ISN'T ok to not drink.
If her boss requires her to consume alcohol to keep her job then she needs a new job. If her coworkers will look at her funny for not having a drink then she needs to get the hell over it.
She agreed to not drink without her masters permission, her personal relationship if it is important to her should take presidence over drinking at a work party.
We aren't even talking about a work party, we are talking about her going out with a girlfriend. So the above example doesn't even apply. Should she submit to peer pressure rather than respect her relationship? That's just stupid IMO.

Lucifyre

<wondering why the OP has dissappeared and why they haven't come to fill in more details as we ramble on LOL>

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Post #: 37

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 7:38:12 PM

Winterapple

Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
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FR
If I agreed to a rule like that and couldn't
get in touch to ask permission I wouldn't
drink. If I thought I wouldn't be able to
resist the temptation I wouldn't go out.

Sometimes things come up where a rule
needs to be broken. But not over something
this silly. If you can't abide by a rule that
wouldn't appear to be very difficult how
are you going to react to the challenging
ones? Of course why it's a rule and why
she behaved as she did might be indicators
of other things going on.

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Post #: 38

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 7:43:13 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
And the men are probably secretly jealous that you show such consideration for your partner.

Well, I do the same thing as LW and I know for a fact that the women are not-so-secretly-jealous that I show such consideration for Carol. Like LW, to me this seems obvious and has nothing to do with permission or BDSM or authority. It has to do with me being a part of a pair and wanting the left hand to know what the right hand is doing.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever thought me "pussy whipped" because I didn't want to make plans without consulting Carol.

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Post #: 39

RE: Advice on "rules" - 8/10/2012 8:23:14 PM

BambiBoi

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Why is this two+ pages? The rules are not in conflict. You can go out and not drink.

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Post #: 40

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