RE: A mature submissive? (Full Version)

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LadyHibiscus -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/20/2012 8:31:16 PM)

So true, SR!



crazyml -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 6:20:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timonat

True dominance is calm, collected, none threatening, not having to prove itself with acts of dominance, but rather invites submission all by itself. True dominance is considerate of the needs of others, appreciative of the gift of submission, true dominance creates a safe space for a submissive to unfold, it is an aura around you which once it has had time to have its effect, is not questioned.


First... welcome to the boards Timoncat.

Now... I hope you'll understand, and forgive, the reaction that many people here (myself included) to your choice of "True Dominance". It'll seem really nitpicky, but we have a constant battle with people that seek to create a narrow definition of things like "Dominance", and the use of the word "true" implies that people who roll a different way are somehow doing it wrong.

Now... here's the thing. I quite like your take on dominance, it's pretty close to mine - But the best I would say is that its "Your approach to dominance" rather than "True dominance" - I'm guessing (since you're clearly articulate) that you'll see the distinction.

quote:


I do not need a whip to be dominant.


Again, I sympathise with this POV, but really what you're saying is that you wouldn't be compatible with someone who needs a whip to be dominated. Quite a few subs (note I'm not claiming a majority, or even lots and lots here), want a man who will dominate them physically.

The doms that suit them aren't "untrue doms", they're just different.

By saying "I do not need a whipe to be dominant" you're implying that doms who like using whips are somehow less domly than you - Which is .... well a pretty <finger quotes>unfortunate</finger quotes> thing to say.



Timonat -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 6:39:26 AM)

Yes you are right. And in doing so, I did what I consider unfair by a lot of people here, which is belittling other people's interpretations.
What I should have done, was ay "true dominance IN MY OPINION. I of course accept and respect that some people ( or a lot) do not agree with me. So I fully accept your point.

About dominating someone physically. IN MY OPINION, that is not true dominance, because it is not a specific characteristic. Men are stronger than women, if you choose to dominate someone physically, and need to do that in order to get submission, in my opinion, that is not dominance, but simply biology. I could also beat up a child, does that make me dominant?

And I never said I do not use the whip, or do not like dominating subs physically, or humiliating them, etc etc etc, these are all conclusions people jumped to without knowing me. All I said was, that if that is the ONLY way that people ever accept your dominance over them, then IN MY OPINION, it is not dominance, just aggression/bullying.



crazyml -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 6:45:18 AM)

I'd hope to be able to get you to shift your position from "In my opinion" more towards "my approach".

By saying "in my opinion true dominance...." you're basically saying that in your opinion people who don't do it your way are wrong.

By saying "my approach to dominance..." you're saying that that's how you roll, without belittling the way others do.

I know this seems really nitpicky, but we all need to be very conscious that there are lots of people that post here, many of whom have many years more experience of BDSM than either of us, who may well have very different takes.



GreedyTop -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 8:15:24 AM)

quote:

if you choose to dominate someone physically, and need to do that in order to get submission, in my opinion, that is not dominance, but simply biology.


Besides what our darling ML said, the above sentence (yes, I know, your opinion and all) is discounting folks who joyfully engage in a dom/sub/sadomasochistic relationship. Such as Kana and littlewonder, for instance (ok, so they're master/slave, but still speaks to my point). I hope the two of them will forgive me for trying to clarify my point using them as an example.

It is NOT simply biology (in the way I am reading what you said). Kana may be wired for his sexy evilness, and lw may not be wired as a maso, but she submits to him because she chooses to do so. He gets sadistic with her because he enjoys it. His sadism is not to gain her submission, it is for his pleasure. Once again, she CHOOSES to submit to him, and if you read either of their posts, she is quite happy to do so.



OsideGirl -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 9:02:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Bless your heart.


Thank you Hibbie.



crazyml -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 9:17:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I never did understand why people don't like the term "gift of submission"... It *is* a gift I give someone... just like they gift me their dominance. It's a reciprocal thing.


Well here's why I don't like the term... it's a reciprocal thing. It's not a gift. It's an exchange. But I am known to be pendantic ;-)



JeffBC -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 9:34:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timonat
Yes you are right. And in doing so, I did what I consider unfair by a lot of people here, which is belittling other people's interpretations.
What I should have done, was ay "true dominance IN MY OPINION. I of course accept and respect that some people ( or a lot) do not agree with me. So I fully accept your point.

Well, that was the first mental hurdle I jumped too. After that was truly getting what crazy is trying to tell you. There IS no such thing as "true dominance". Or, perhaps more accurately, one might define "true dominance" as "that which works in any given situation". You limit your ability to actually understand the breadth of human experience by holding a mental model which just is not accurate. I'm not convinced but I think I've finally shed myself of the last vestiges of thinking about "trueness". Nowadays I talk about differences that I observe but I don't apply value judgements to those differences. I've tried to come up with different words than "true" or "natural" to more accurately describe the differences I observe.

In a specific example, I used to refer to Carol as a "true submissive". By that I meant that she submitted as the default way in which she interacts with the world at large rather than solely within the context of her primary relationship. But it's ridiculous to think other people who are not like that are "not true". Of course they are truly doing whatever it is they are doing and of course whatever it is is "natural" to them. So now I call her "socially submissive" or "submissive by default". It's more than simply word choice. It reflects an understanding on my part that different strategies are not more or less "real" or "true". They are simply different.

The bottom line is that it is ridiculous to measure everyone else's "trueness" by how similar they are to me.



littlewonder -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 1:07:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

if you choose to dominate someone physically, and need to do that in order to get submission, in my opinion, that is not dominance, but simply biology.


Besides what our darling ML said, the above sentence (yes, I know, your opinion and all) is discounting folks who joyfully engage in a dom/sub/sadomasochistic relationship. Such as Kana and littlewonder, for instance (ok, so they're master/slave, but still speaks to my point). I hope the two of them will forgive me for trying to clarify my point using them as an example.

It is NOT simply biology (in the way I am reading what you said). Kana may be wired for his sexy evilness, and lw may not be wired as a maso, but she submits to him because she chooses to do so. He gets sadistic with her because he enjoys it. His sadism is not to gain her submission, it is for his pleasure. Once again, she CHOOSES to submit to him, and if you read either of their posts, she is quite happy to do so.


We don't have any problems with this. Thank you Greedy, and you are absolutely right.



GreedyTop -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 1:17:23 PM)

Thanks, lw! I wasn't trying to speak FOR the two of you, but trying to express what I have SEEN HERE between you two over the years:) Thank you. I didn't want to do either of you a disservice :)

(I hope you are feeling better!! *hugs*)



littlewonder -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 1:24:27 PM)

Thanks and I understand. [:)]

And thanks, I'm feeling a little better than I did yesterday, just still trying to digest stuff in my life right now.



LadyPact -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 1:42:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Timonat

Yes you are right. And in doing so, I did what I consider unfair by a lot of people here, which is belittling other people's interpretations.
What I should have done, was ay "true dominance IN MY OPINION. I of course accept and respect that some people ( or a lot) do not agree with me. So I fully accept your point.

About dominating someone physically. IN MY OPINION, that is not true dominance, because it is not a specific characteristic. Men are stronger than women, if you choose to dominate someone physically, and need to do that in order to get submission, in my opinion, that is not dominance, but simply biology. I could also beat up a child, does that make me dominant?

And I never said I do not use the whip, or do not like dominating subs physically, or humiliating them, etc etc etc, these are all conclusions people jumped to without knowing me. All I said was, that if that is the ONLY way that people ever accept your dominance over them, then IN MY OPINION, it is not dominance, just aggression/bullying.

Let's try again.

Correct Me if I'm wrong. Earlier in the thread, you mentioned something about not wanting a relationship. Just some experiences.

Now, to Me, I do separate topping and Dominance. So, if you are just talking about encounters, that may or may not fall into the realm of Domination. It may really just be topping, which is why I mentioned the whip.

You also mentioned somewhere along the way about lacking experience. That's the other reason I mentioned the whip. (By the way, when I say whip, that's what I mean. Not a flogger. I mean a plated whip.)

Since I have the advantage of being married to another top who is a much different age than you, and having the knowledge of how difficult it *can* be for a male rather than a female, I wanted to know how much the age played into it. Of course, My other half has had a HUGE advantage in having a great resource in learning topping skills, and that makes a big difference, too.

Part of the reason this has been cloudy is because you keep bringing up fucking, which really isn't Dominance, either. There are a number of males who think it is, but sexual Dominance or escapades has little do with authority or control.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 1:43:34 PM)

Oh, LP, muddying the waters with real life again...



GreedyTop -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 1:48:31 PM)

*loves LP*

*forgives her for being a ditz about phone charging*


*DUCKS AND RUNS LIKE HELL!!!!*



OsideGirl -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 1:51:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Part of the reason this has been cloudy is because you keep bringing up fucking, which really isn't Dominance, either. There are a number of males who think it is, but sexual Dominance or escapades has little do with authority or control.


Yup. That was one of my points too. My view is what D/s takes place out side of the bedroom, otherwise it's just kinky sex.





JeffBC -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 2:31:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Part of the reason this has been cloudy is because you keep bringing up fucking, which really isn't Dominance, either. There are a number of males who think it is, but sexual Dominance or escapades has little do with authority or control.

Yup. That was one of my points too. My view is what D/s takes place out side of the bedroom, otherwise it's just kinky sex.

You know I used to think that then I got argued off that position. Nowadays I just see it as control but within very constrained context. But in the end, if he says "blow me" and she does then how is it any different than me saying, "Wash the dishes" and she does?



littlewonder -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 2:34:08 PM)

It ends in the bedroom with sex and no further.



JeffBC -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 2:39:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
It ends in the bedroom with sex and no further.

I agree. But that is not a question of fundamental nature. It's a scoping problem. I still think it's the same thing just in a very limited scope. Where I think things DO become different is somewhere when you get into the whole IE, TPE swirl. As Carol so succinctly put it one time, "There is a world of difference between 99% and 100%".



OsideGirl -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 2:42:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Part of the reason this has been cloudy is because you keep bringing up fucking, which really isn't Dominance, either. There are a number of males who think it is, but sexual Dominance or escapades has little do with authority or control.

Yup. That was one of my points too. My view is what D/s takes place out side of the bedroom, otherwise it's just kinky sex.

You know I used to think that then I got argued off that position. Nowadays I just see it as control but within very constrained context. But in the end, if he says "blow me" and she does then how is it any different than me saying, "Wash the dishes" and she does?



Submission to me means that he has control over my life, not just blow jobs or dishes for that matter. It means he's controlling the path of our lives and relationship.



CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: A mature submissive? (8/21/2012 3:11:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Submission to me means that he has control over my life, not just blow jobs or dishes for that matter. It means he's controlling the path of our lives and relationship.



Fuck, you mean there's more than dishes and blow jobs in all of this?



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