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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 3:03:27 PM   
yourdarkdesire


Posts: 4477
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline 		Under the letter of the law, "touching without consent" is called assault.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 3:04:42 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, lets get on and start assaulting that cock, you fuckin keyboard commando pussy!!!!

Im 98 years old but I aint no coward, Ill take you on. 

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 3:08:15 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
See that's how I feel about it too. I'm not going to freak out about a handshake, a hug or even a slap on the back. I wouldn't necessarily mind that much out if somebody gently touched my neck without asking, though I'd consider that a little bit rude. But hitting me, or touching my genitalia, or grabbing my neck in a shock hold without contact being ok-ed by me first is just pushing it way too far.

I still wouldn't make a scene about it... hell... it's not like it'd be that big of a deal for me personal... I just make it VERY clear that such things are not appreciated by me, and I would mark you off at that point as a person I cannot trust in any way shape or form, and wouldn't want anything more to do with you. However, I wouldn't be freaked out or traumatized in any way by any of that stuff... just annoyed and offended.

Oh how so very reasonable. I gotta admit, the reason I've decided I'll NEVER be in such a space is that it sounds about as much fun as that old game, Operation. I can just imagine myself simply trying to navigate a crowded room to get a seat or something but each sub has this alarm on her... touch the sub and the buzzer goes off. Oh, and when the buzzer goes off the cops come. Somehow I'm not feeling exactly "safe" in this environment. Yes, yes. I get it. 90% of you would never consider such a thing. It's not you that I'm worried about.

I am kind of curious though. As a fairly regular event in crowded situations I've had women brush up against my cock. When you're standing closely or maybe even getting a little jostled these things happen. Were I to cry out bloody murder do you think anyone would care?




My dear, I think you will have to cope on your own, obviously you are mobbed with pleas to come to BDSM events and therefore feel you need to tell us you don't want to come... Personally I am glad that you decided not to go to one of those events, because you seem to be intent to look for drama, you would be so disappointed that most likely nothing like that would occur.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 3:18:06 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


I've seen people at clubs get very upset, angry and annoyed and intentional inappropriate touching.

I've never seen anybody get upset at accidental or involuntary touching of any kind.





Exactly and they are not playing victim or anything like that, they are just expecting people to play by the rules.

In a vanilla environment - you go to a restaurant, you don't expect that the person on the next table burbs and farts - in case they have such poor social skills that they do, you call the waiter and complain and they will be shown the door.

Regarding BDSM venues, to be honest, the people there might be less dressed than in a regular night club, but they tend to be a lot more respectful and polite, and as a woman you do feel more secure - this is exactly what the organizers want, because the moment the women have to put up with being groped, the women won't go to the events anymore, without the women you end up with a big sausage fest, and your event or club just dies away. It's in the interest of the club owner to have the rules established and as little drama as possible.


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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 3:42:35 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		Most times when I've been at clubs and there was an issue with people being touched when they didn't want to be, it was because the toucher first got introduced into a swingers environment and then proceeded to attend BDSM events.

Swingers and BDSMers are like cats and dogs when it comes to communication about consent and touching.

In swingers clubs, when a couple is going at it, and you want to join in, it's often considered rude to interrupt them to start negotiating a scene. Instead, it's perfectly okay to just brush either one of the couple on some non-sexual location like the arm, as a way of asking if it's okay if you joined them. If they don't brush your hand away, or signal or tell you "no", you're cleared to join, if they do brush your hand away, of shake their heads, you're expected to back off.

When a swinger used to asking permission that way goes to a BDSM event and tried to follow the same rules, it's a recipe for disaster. Because BDSMers will not see a hand brushing the sub's arm during a scene as a signal to ask for permission, and instead will see it as you gravely crossing a line.
At the same time, that's why all BDSM clubs I've been too explain the rules do newbies at the door AND often have them posted at various places around the club.

At the same time, swingers will also not allow somebody to ask permission to join by immediately reaching for genitalia, or ass, or something like that. The "touch to ask permission" signal is limited to non-sexual touch. The example I gave of the guy hitting me with an electric fly swatter when I had already explicitly told him that wasn't okay wouldn't be appreciated in either a swingers or a BDSM environment, and would be cause for eviction in both.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 3:42:44 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		When i was pregnant, i had my fill of people walking up to me and touching my pregnant belly. They wouldn't do it when i wasn't pregnant, so exactly what made it ok for them to do it when i was. And these included people whom i didn't know!

At play parties with my late dom, i would be naked the whole time, and never had a problem with any inappropriate touching - perhaps because that would be befouling the local nest. I would think it would be easier to objectify others when you don't know them - like at a large event.
The one time i had to talk to my dom about inappropriate anything was when a local "dom" kept annoying my african grey - and i very pointedly told him that she was off limits and to leave her alone. lol - its sad when your bird has better manners than a human.




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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 4:06:17 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I've never understood why people think that within BDSM D/s manners no longer exist. If I do not know you, I'm not going to touch in any manner that wouldn't be acceptable in a vanilla setting.

I was at a social. I had some knife marks on my chest. A male "Dom" reached out and ran his hand across the marks without so much as a "hello" first. I dislocated his thumb.


Stupid people in all lifestyles.... I am surprised that anyone would expect not to find them in this lifestyle. For the most part I think basic social skills seem to be the norm.. For those that don't. Well.... They get a sore thumb!! And rightfully so!

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 4:45:22 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Once upon a time I actually seriously thought of creating a "secret" club where the only ones invited were those or my partner selectively chose to invite and had to be vetted by someone else already in the club. First rule: You don't not speak about the club.

hahaha Well, about the only play space in my area within an hour's drive or more is just like that. I'm lucky enough to be invited, but we're working on getting a more public play space going but it may be years in the making.
_______________

On to the actual topic of the thread: I just don't get it why some people can't get it through their heads, NO NON-CONSENSUAL TOUCHING. I mean how hard is that to understand? Anywhere and everywhere I've ever played, that rule is posted very clearly and very out in the open so it can't be missed.

When I'm at any kink - or vanilla - event, I'm not going to touch without permission. Of course I have good friends and we both know we like to hug or whatever and that's all cool. Everyone has good friends where boundaries are already perfectly understood. But when I don't know for sure and I don't have permission I just don't touch. I can't even remember how many times I've said "Are you a hugger or a handshaker?" before I hug.

If someone who didn't know us and didn't understand our boundaries and personal space around touching just came up and touched my sub or me, he or she would most certainly hear about it. If someone actually slapped one of us like was mentioned previously, there would be assault charges filed. That may make me seem like a drama queen, but I rather think it's just I know common courtesy and manners and think others should also. If they can't follow the rules, they should expect consequences.

NBMG

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 5:19:57 PM   
sheisreeds


Posts: 578
Joined: 7/8/2008
Status: offline 		Sorry, I've been dealing w/ work and am sad to see this billow into a huge issue.

The neck touching post:

Her neck was touched during a hug from what I understand, a hug that was consented to. The post was removed from FL, she tried to get the Citadel in SF in trouble for not kicking this guy out even though she admits herself to having told no one. Based on the description it was a touch that happened during normal social contact. It is also likely the touch on the neck was accidental, but this is a trigger area for her! Instead of warning people of this, or saying no to a hug or any sort of physical contact, she expected minds to be read.

Shaking hands, hugs, etc, are apart of what we do everyday. I don't cry rape every time someone's walking by and brushes my boob, if that counts as assault everyone in my office has sexually assaulted me.

I see more and more posts taking on a victim stance with ANY sort of touch at a party.

It drives me crazy because when people do ACTUALLY break the spirit AND letter of the rule it means less.

To add more context:

After 300 something comments and some sulking on her part (since she did not receive the 100% sympathetic response she expected) she decided to spend some time working on her own trauma issues. From what I can tell she is back in the scene and better adjusted.

< Message edited by sheisreeds -- 8/14/2012 5:28:32 PM >

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 5:25:24 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		If you are at an event and all you see is submissive and dominants, then yes, i can see people touching others inappropriately - because you are seeing roles, not people. Its easy to touch an object - after all, you would never even think to consider if an object might not want to be touched. You have to buy into the fact that what you are seeing are people with preferences , not just a role that has no say. And if you spend way too much time watching BDSM porn and see way too many gangbangs with the banged object having no say, then why would anyone or thing object when you go out in "public".

Touchy people need to get out of their parents basement and spend more time with people with opinions and preferences, and then inappropriate touching would cease. ....oh, and learning the rules of any given event would also help.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 5:55:37 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

Based on the description it was a touch that happened during normal social contact. It is also likely the touch on the neck was accidental, but this is a trigger area for her! Instead of warning people of this, or saying no to a hug or any sort of physical contact, she expected minds to be read.



That's retarded.
If it where my club, she would get banned from going there, just the same as somebody who touched inappropriately would. If I was just attending the club, I'd make it very clear to management that I'm not going there anymore as long as she's still welcome. If I'd meet her at other events, I'd warn people about her and avoid her as much as possible.

She is putting people in as much danger and in as much of a compromised position as a non-consensual toucher does. Crying "wolf" for no reason puts people in a serious risk and I would simple not put up with somebody like that.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 6:00:24 PM   
BambiBoi


Posts: 461
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourdarkdesire

Under the letter of the law, "touching without consent" is called assault.


Great point. Assault also includes dignitary invasions (no pain, suffering or damage is needed for assault) and extended personality (where touching me with an object or touching an object I'm possessing can be assault). I like that stricter element of the law because it allows me to feel that my physical body is safe. There are legal fictions, for example that as a member of society we consent to strangers tapping us on the shoulder.

But consent is a defense. Sports players consent to all sorts of touching, but not certain types. A basketball player cannot say a tough check or hands slapping against arms was assault. But an enraged punch is, even between athlete. In a public play space the custom of the industry and often written rules of the dungeon require consent. Things get dicey when a dom can consent on behalf of the sub, but that's what safewords are for. Interesting to me is in more private parties. The custom of touching depends on the environment. I went to a pet-party with lots of furries, pup-play, and pony-play. A puppy intentionally nuzzled his face to my butt without consent, but that was the orgy-like tone of the night. I smacked his rubber snout, pointed at him, and shouted "NO!" Also part of the tone of the night. It's usually these more private parties that have public slaves and people set aside for everyone's enjoyment.

I don't see anything wrong with a submissive woman "flipping a shit" with even the lightest non-consensual touching. Even a tap on the shoulder in the heated sensual air is forward. Plus women go crazy when they start entering sub space. Like exorcism crazy.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 6:10:22 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

I haven't seen anyone create an issue over an unavoidable or accidental brushing in a crowded room.

I personally don't like crowds very much because I get claustrophobic. I can handle the occasional brushing up against, but I've been in some crowds where people are pressed against each other and that gets my antsy. I don't blame the people and call them inappropriate - it's the nature of a crowd.

That said, I haven't been to BDSM clubs. But in "vanilla" settings I don't like being touched uninvited. I don't hug men unless we are friends. I don't care about an occasional hand on the shoulder or elbow, but beyond that, I don't like. In the last several months on two separate occasions, men have held doors open for me and as I passed, they rested their hand around my waist and ran it along the small of my back as I passed. Seriously - WTF???

I don't make a stink about it, but they do know not to do that again. I don't understand it though - it's my fucking BODY. Why do you (generic you) feel it's OK to reach out and touch it? It's just weird to me. Friends and family are a different story - we're totally touchy-feely. But I don't care where you are or who you are - touching the more personal areas of my body is not OK, unless you're in my inner circle. It's disrespecting my personal space.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 6:14:28 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Can't say I've ever gone psycho when in subspace. I'm too zoned out to be psycho. I'm usually just sitting there clinging to Master's leg while he's caring for me or we're both just relaxing and watching others or talking to each other.

I can't even picture someone flipping out while in subspace. If I saw that happen with someone, I would advise her that maybe playing around others might not be her cup of tea and ask her if she is normally an angry person.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 6:35:04 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		FR,

It's not just BDSM.

http://www.sheawong.com/when-enough-is-not-enough-rene-walling-genevieve-valentine-and-readercon/#13449942291501&action=collapse_widget&id=5527064

Let me preface this by saying while I am a proud geek (sorry, Nick Mamatas), I don’t like cons. They’re loud, and cramped, and some rooms always smell like gym socks, and you have to stand in line for everything, and when I am at a hotel I want to sleep, not put up with adults who have regressed and are running up and down the halls throwing ice at each other. But I get that some people love them, and happily wait in sweltering heat with makeup running down their faces, just to meet the person who played the part of the character they are currently dressed as. Hell, a good friend of mine made Comic-Con his honeymoon destination; to each his own. But something I have found creepy about the few cons I have attended, and is without a doubt the reason I and many paying customers won’t go to them in the future, is the growing sense of safety-loss at conventions, or truly, wherever geeks gather in large numbers. And I don’t mean acts of terror, I mean acts of sexual harassment, and the culture that happily turns a blind eye to all of it.

It’s a powder keg if you think about it. You have a large group of Gamma males (and some females as well) who recede into media that portrays women as overwhelmingly sexual/weak objects (seriously, the first time I saw a ‘mainstream’ comic female character who wasn’t stacked like a porn star or had to be saved every 30 seconds, she was dead. Literally. She was Death, from Gaiman’s Sandman), and then they go to a con where there are real life girls dressed as their favorite characters, and I don’t know what synapse misfires in their head, but they can’t seem to keep their comments or hands to themselves. And I don’t mean that every person who walks through a convention door suddenly becomes a rapist, but I do mean that in this regressed world, some guys (and girls) seem to forget the rules of society. Just for clarity, here are some:

1. I’m glad you like my outfit/tee shirt/bag/button. Me acknowledging your compliment is not an invitation for you to continue to talk to me. If your compliment is simply an ‘in’ to continue a conversation, it’s not a compliment, it’s a pick up line. I’m not here to hook up, I’m here to listen to panels/buy stuff/get stuff signed. Asking for a photo with me means me standing next to you, not you putting your arm around me.

2. If you would like to ask a question about my bag/button/tee shirt, ask the question. Do not assume you can simply touch something I am wearing without me slapping your hand away and loudly asking you what the fuck you think you are doing.

3. I’m sure after a long day on the con floor I look tired. However, unless I have specifically ordered a massage with my spa package and you are my physical therapist, your offer of a neckrub/backrub/massage will be met with a withering glare and a firm “no”. You putting your hands on me without my say so will be met with me kicking you very hard in the crotch, and you probably vomiting in pain.

4. Wolf whistles/sexual comments/anything of the sort: Are you kidding me? Grow the fuck up.

5. Open Source Boob Project? Piss. Off.

6. I can’t believe this even needs to be said, but if you in any way physically assault me (coming up behind me and wrapping arms around me, “accidentally” continuously bumping your gross crotch into me), we will both leave the con in handcuffs – you for charges of sexual intimidation/assault, and me for kicking your ass.

Please note: This is not an exhaustive list. However, it does cover some of the major issues that women experience at cons. And if you think this list is mean, or harsh, or man hating, let me remind you:

YOU CANNOT DO ANY OF THESE THINGS AT YOUR WORK/IN PUBLIC, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND IF YOU THINK YOU CAN PULL THIS SHIT JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE DRESSED AS A FUCKING EWOK.

Read more: http://www.sheawong.com/when-enough-is-not-enough-rene-walling-genevieve-valentine-and-readercon/#13449942291501&action=collapse_widget&id=5527064

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 6:52:38 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		When I used to take my daughter to anime conventions, what you describe was extremely prevalent but it seemed those there who were teenagers just like my daughter, all seemed to be there to hook up and do all kinds of touchy feely things and it was the reason they wore the costumes they wore. It seemed no one had a problem with the touching and all the stuff you mentioned. When I would approach my daughter about it she would say that this character or that character acts that way and that it's just fun, no big deal. I personally found it creepy but also realized I wasn't into conventions, I wasn't their age, their culture is different from mine, etc...

Now had there been many complaining and screaming about the actions going on, I probably would have had a huge problem with it all but it seems it was simply part of the anime/manga culture at such events. When my daughter got older and was an adult now, I had to learn how to turn a blind eye and I no longer went to the conventions with her. I don't think I would have lived through one more lol.

So basically, not all "lifestyles" are going to be against the whole touching and such. Yes, bdsm clubs usually will state no touching without permission but then you go to a swing party or anime convention, those rules are not as strict. And to be honest, a lot of people who attend bdsm functions are usually also into swingers, anime/manga, renaissance/sca groups where such stuff is much more permissive and tolerated. So because of those cultures they automatically assume a bdsm party is going to be the exact same way.


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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 7:43:20 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC


I sure the fuck do not want to be anywhere within a 100' of a woman who might, upon the most casual of brushings in a crowded room, flip out. Not to worry though. This whole thing has convinced me that I really don't want to be anywhere near any of these settings ever. You all can flip out over each other far, far away from me is where I'm at with this.


Indeed.
luci

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 8:35:48 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If I'm at the grocery store staring at zucchini, I'd be pissed if someone put his hands on me. If he got upset because I wasn't grabbing and getting out of his way and he decided to slap me, I'd call the cops. I see no difference if it was in a restaurant or a bar or a munch or a club. That's not appropriate. If you think it is, then I suggest you call your mother up and ask her how she would feel if a stranger grabbed her boobs or crotch or slapped her. If you don't think she should be subjected to that, then don't subject anyone else to it.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 9:39:43 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		FR
I have an unpleasant association with
a stranger touching actually more than
touching. It was at a vanilla club not a
bdsm one. I was there with a female friend.
A guy who knew her came over with a
friend of his. The four of stood chatting
for a bit. Then the guy reached and started
massaging my neck. When I tried to pull
away from him he tightened his grip on
me and I couldn't get away from him.
I told him to let go and clawed at his hand
and he just kept smiling. He finally let
go when his friend told him I didn't seem
to be enjoying it so let her go. I had bruises
on my neck the next day.
There are creeps everywhere. I think I
generally feel safer in a bdsm club where
people go through orientation and the
rules are reiterated over and over.

I heard secondhand of a guy who
went to a smaller munch who was
socially inept/inappropriate. He got
very touchy feely with the women and
spoke crudely using explicit language.
The leader shut him down and later had
a talk with the guy who said he couldn't
believe people at a munch would be so
uptight.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 10:47:27 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline 		~FR~
I was at a private play party awhile back and the organizer had invited three guys no one else there knew. One of those guys was going around touching some of the females, some of them very intimately. He never touched me because I think he knew, by the way I was glaring at him, I'd have broken his hands if he did.

She obviously did not clue this guy into the no non-consensual touching policy that all the regulars knew about and those women never clued him in either. Of course, this same man did not have a personal towel between his bare ass and the host's furniture. Some people have no respect whatsoever.

NBMG

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Profile   Post #: 60
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