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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:16:50 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I think this goes along with a basic breakdown in our society. We've all become so "familiar"; even with people we don't know, at all.

I often tell the story going back about 12 years when I had first started to shave my head and some woman touched my head from behind.

I swung around and grabbed her arm and asked what the hell she thought she was doing.

Her response was something like: "I just wanted to see what your head felt like"

I responded with: "Oh. Well, what if I just wanted to see what your hair felt like? Or your ass?"

She couldn't understand the similarities and therein lies my point.

We've become far too tolerent of things of which we shouldn't be. We developed some double standards that leave me scratching my head.

Her contention was that I should be "okay" with her just touching my head at her whim (from behind, no less which is a big no-no).

Why wouldn't it be okay for me to just run my fingers through her hair. The why doesn't matter. It's inappropriate. I neither need or deserve a reason.

I like to think it wasn't gender-based but I can't swear to it. I like to think that this was just one of those people who believes themselves to be privileged and above the rules to which we mortals must adhere.

Anyway, I think it goes to the lack of "old time manners" that some of our contemporaries have been taught and that some of us are passing along to our children. Add in the "open" atmosphere that we try to have a society (welcoming all and not looking down our nose at behaviors that we may not favor as individuals) and it's a recipe for trouble, in my book.




Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:33:22 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		General reply and a public service announcement.

I'm a high protocol person. Usually, I will keep My head about Me when it comes to these things. I try to remember to ask first, but sometimes, I get really excited to finally meet someone after chatting on the boards for YEARS. I consider lots of people 'friends I haven't met yet'. So, if the day should come that I get to meet you in person after banging around these boards all of this time, I might get excited and forget to ask permission to hug you. Just remember, not everything is about Dom/sub. Sometimes, I'm just the chick who is bouncing up and down excited to see you in person for the first time.

<Wanders off trying to remember if I asked to have a hug the first time I met Carol.>


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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:43:02 PM   
yourdarkdesire


Posts: 4477
Joined: 10/2/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, lets get on and start assaulting that cock, you fuckin keyboard commando pussy!!!!

Im 98 years old but I aint no coward, Ill take you on. 


Well, get the batteries on your scooter charged up and get your ass over here! I'll assault you all you want.........old man!

(ducks and runs for cover)


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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 1:49:28 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		I haven't read the other responses - I remember that story. It was a gal who was actually interacting with the dude, and he upped it one notch. It seemed very appropriate to me. The problem was that she has a very specific disorder - completely not obvious to the naked eye - that made that harsher for her than it would be for others. She thought we should all magically know. She refused to take any responsibility for it.

If you go to my writing on FL you will see a whole lot of discussion about it. In fact... here it is

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 8/15/2012 2:15:02 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 4:50:12 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Good thread Sunny!

FR regarding intent - every time I get a haircut her breast bumps into my arm. We ignore this.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 4:52:16 AM   
sheisreeds


Posts: 578
Joined: 7/8/2008
Status: offline 		OMG sunshinemiss so glad you remember and have some evidence of the story!

LadyConstantine can you please add reference to my post on the events, and sunshinemiss's post regarding the events to the OP? At least the fact that people should read the entire thread before commenting.

This thread is going the way of the original story where everyone was at each others throats, I don't want to see that here.

That story is actually why I started posting here!

I actually let go of some real life friends because of this incident. The girl in the story had been staying in our area and we all knew her, I actually thought she was pretty cool. Though she went too deep, too fast into kink, and then started play as hard as she did with us in a new place. She kinda lost it mentally.

However, some people I previously respected in that thread blindly defended her and expected if anyone touch anyone at anyway at a party without explicit consent that we were committing sexual assault.

Sorry, we live in a place with social norms.

I for one hate hugs, can't stand them. I choose how much I care about that boundary on a daily basis. We touch each other all the time as social animals. We shake hands, hug, put a hand on the shoulder, hold hands. In some cultures kissing the check is an expected form of greeting!

To me it speaks of seriously cross wires when people cannot differentiate between the two.

Touching someone in a sexual way or sexualized area without permission, purposefully touching anyone without being engaged with them socially, then it's molestation!

Also plenty of our consent for touch w/ social touch is given through social cues, I have never had an issue figuring out if someone wants to hug me. If I don't want a hug as soon as those arms open wide I say, "Sorry I don't do hugs".

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Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in


You need a spankin' baby!

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 5:21:55 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
(apart from the socially accepted shake hands or touch the arm)

It's hard as hell to quote on an iPad but I sure do wish I'd caught this part earlier.

Yeah, nobody ought to be manhandling anyone else without clear permission. Yes it's OK to do the things that would be OK in polite society. Interestingly, today I just non-concensually brushed a woman's breast ... As I leapt out of my chair to get the door for the woman who was maybe 65 and carrying 2 big bags of groceries. She semed to think that I was a nice young man.

Of course, as has already been noted on this thread, I might also be imprisoned right now had she chosen to take things differently.


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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 5:43:08 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		OK, in that case it was piss poor negotiation on both parts... The girl should have mentioned it and whoever was topping her should have asked about hard limits.

But you know my opinion still stands, if you do touch somebody without permission (and I do not mean a handshake or a gentle tap on the arm or shoulder because you are trying to get their attention), it is WRONG.

The idea that people can touch at BDSM or fetish events because they see something they like, it doesn't fly.

quote:

However, some people I previously respected in that thread blindly defended her and expected if anyone touch anyone at anyway at a party without explicit consent that we were committing sexual assault.

Sorry, we live in a place with social norms.


Well, sorry, but if you touch anyone without explicit consent, you are actually breaking the rules. No ifs, no buts. If you are engaged into a scene, then you got the consent before, but I can't imagine anybody not asking about the neck. So many people have hangups about the neck, yes of course it would have been up to her to mention it, but also the person who played with her should have ASKED if there is a hard limit, that is just what you do. I don't think I am the only one who knows people who are OK with canes, floggers or whips but freak out when their neck is touched, seems to be a very common thing.

Not absolving her of guilt, but again wondering why the person who played with her didn't think about asking? Didn't they negotiate the scene?

Oddly enough going to any BDSM event, the thing newbies are afraid of is getting "raped and molested", it's kinda funny because there aren't horny females lurking about looking for fresh meat, in fact usually a single male will have a hard time attracting attention or getting somebody to interact with him on more than a polite level of talking. I keep on telling them that if they should be so lucky that somebody wants to play with them, the person will ASK.

This whole thing about "Oh yeah, some subbies are such victims and will scream and yell, ohhh, how horrible" is just fucking redundant. How about "OK, I ASK before if there are any areas that shouldn't be touched, so this stuff can't happen to me?" That's actually using brains and being personally responsible, it is really really simple.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 6:15:40 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I hate being touched without permission too.
Point is, to me, the only person who has the right to touch me is the one who has ownership of me.
It's that simple, if I'm not his property, hands off.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 6:42:08 AM   
bighappygoth39


Posts: 633
Joined: 10/7/2009
Status: offline 		Absolutely. If any passing top feels that they're entitled to touch you up because you're a sub, then your submission to your owner has suddenly become worthless, hasn't it? A lot of this discussion seems to be overlooking that problem.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 6:55:02 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bighappygoth39

Absolutely. If any passing top feels that they're entitled to touch you up because you're a sub, then your submission to your owner has suddenly become worthless, hasn't it? A lot of this discussion seems to be overlooking that problem.



To be honest, I don't even think that it needs to be addressed, no touching without permission covers it, and sorry, it would be a piss poor dominant who would just meekly stand there and let somebody else touch their sub, the same way it would be a piss poor sub who wouldn't point out that s/he's owned, but the problem doesn't arise if there is no touching without permission. Additionally, what kind of social skills does a person have if they grope before they are actually took the time to introduce themselves?

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 6:58:50 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Oh come on people. When I'm talking to someone, and we are becoming more familiar, touch is naturally gonna happen. It's expected and normal. THAT is what we are talking about - not some yahoo run-of-the-mill dom who just walks up. We're not talking about groping, we're talking about a simple caress with someone you're talking with / flirting with.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 7:16:50 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		To be honest, I would still object, it's a personal space thing and the whole touchy feely new age crap just doesn't really fly with me. A person I don't know, let's say I met some guy in a pub and we're talking about the weather and he gets flirty and starts touching me, I just take a step back and let him know through body language that I'm not comfortable, in case he doesn't get the hint, I move away, should he persist, I would take his hand and remove it from me. No hysterics, nothing, I'm just not comfy being touched by somebody I don't know, it's only common courtesy to not expose people to something I wouldn't like for myself.

It's simple, isn't it, you are flirty, you are touching somebody's arm, the person touches you back or leaves the arm there - it's OK. Person removes the arm and says "sorry", it's a clear sign to not proceed. No difference between vanilla and BDSM

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 7:36:10 AM   
bighappygoth39


Posts: 633
Joined: 10/7/2009
Status: offline 		Some people, I've found, are fine with the touching of strangers, even if it's just a touch to the arm, etc, but for me, I've never been comfy with that. As you say, vanilla or bdsm, it doesn't make a difference to me, but of course, there are plenty of people, as we've seen examples of on this thread, who just don't have any issues with just going up to a stranger and touching them. I guess the only way they stop that behaviour is if they end up having their thumb dislocated, or get punched in the face for doing so. For me, I just back off or raise my hands and make it very clear I'm not happy with it.

As for my sub, that is one of the main reasons I prefer not to go to clubs, or other social bdsm events, as I do worry that my patience could be pushed, and at my age I much prefer not having my night ruined by either of us getting arrested for assault and battery.

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Don't judge a book by its cover, it could well be worth a good sniff or two...

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 8:06:56 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I haven't read the other responses - I remember that story. It was a gal who was actually interacting with the dude, and he upped it one notch. It seemed very appropriate to me. The problem was that she has a very specific disorder - completely not obvious to the naked eye - that made that harsher for her than it would be for others. She thought we should all magically know. She refused to take any responsibility for it.

If you go to my writing on FL you will see a whole lot of discussion about it. In fact... here it is

I'm enjoying reading the link to the writing, sunny. Was the first link within the responses/discussion there supposed to be a link back to the neck touching story? I got a 404 (Fet language for file not found) when clicking through. Does anybody have a link to it? I'm seriously trying to figure this whole thing out. Thanks.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 8:31:29 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I'm actually cool with a light touch on the arm, when it gets grabby no way, but it can usually be handled without drama or being insulting, we're grown ups after all.

To be honest, never had problems with somebody touching a sub in a BDSM club, but then I never had the luck to have the "incredible hunk no woman can resist" as a sub, given the fact that there are more men than women anyway, not much to worry about really.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 8:35:57 AM   
LanaDeVille


Posts: 209
Status: offline 		You know, this really isn't even a scene issue as much as it is an issue of manners. We discussed this in my Communications class. Some people are touchers and some aren't. Some people want to hug when they meet someone and some people feel smothered by a hug. I think it's important to respect the boundaries of people though, regardless of their differences. By that, I mean that the touchy people need to respect the boundaries of those who may not be touchy. I believe that they can best do that by not initiating physical contact with them before getting to know them and by keeping in mind that not everyone is comfortable with that behavior. They can also do that by not acting like a drama llama over the fact that someone doesn't like being touched. The people who don't like to be touched shouldn't have to readjust those boundaries because it's their body and not anyone elses. And I'm not talking about an accidental brush.

In the South, everyone hugs. Because of that, I actually am more of a touchy person, but I understand that not everyone is. And if someone reacts badly to me doing something as simple as reaching for a hug, I apologize and move on. No drama. No ridiculous worries about "assault" charges. No getting "affronted" because "I was just being friendly". I move on.

< Message edited by LanaDeVille -- 8/15/2012 8:36:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 8:44:07 AM   
bighappygoth39


Posts: 633
Joined: 10/7/2009
Status: offline 		I tend to be much more tolerant with someone if I get the vibe that they're just like that naturally. It's more the grabbers that I tend to get annoyed with, the same as LadyC.

I should think it's harder to deal with the people who think it's okay to go around touching who they like at a club, etc, as it's people like that who only do that in that situation and not in a vanilla one.

As you say, it's a manners thing, more than anything, and those people sometimes need to be reminded that most people have actually been taught manners. I can only imagine that if there is someone who repeatedly lacks the manners most people expect, they will soon get banned from said place pretty quickly.

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Don't judge a book by its cover, it could well be worth a good sniff or two...

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 9:02:06 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		~FR~


I'm a hugger. If I haven't met you yet, and we DO meet, fellow forum denizens, be aware of that. I am also a casual toucher.

If ever we do meet, please do me the favor of letting me know beforehand so that I will know not to invade your space.

Kplsthx

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Touching without permission - 8/15/2012 9:04:42 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I am Italian. Need I say more?

Luckily I am very very alert to social cues.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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