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RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 3:45:09 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

There is a difference: Breivik had no personal grudge against the people he murdered. But you would murder because of a personal grudge.

Actually, he did hold a grudge, just not a personal one.

I hold a grudge against the adults in the same party, but not such that I would kill them or their kids for it.

Be a bit like killing all the kids of the GOP, wouldn't it?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 61

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 3:46:53 PM

LadyHibiscus

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You are a lovely young man, Aswad. :)

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RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:00:00 PM

DomKen

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It is shocking to me the reactions here to a truly civilized and humane criminal justice system. People were actually hoping this man would be brutalized by other prisoners if he could not be killed by the state.

Brevik will never again harm anyone and he will spend the rest of his life alone with his thoughts. Perhaps he will realize the horror of his beliefs and try to make his peace with his actions and perhaps he will remain a vile worthless person who is rightfully despised by all rational people. But either way he will not put blood on the hands of the Norwegian people.

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Post #: 63

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:09:08 PM

MissToYouRedux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It is shocking to me the reactions here to a truly civilized and humane criminal justice system. People were actually hoping this man would be brutalized by other prisoners if he could not be killed by the state.

Brevik will never again harm anyone and he will spend the rest of his life alone with his thoughts. Perhaps he will realize the horror of his beliefs and try to make his peace with his actions and perhaps he will remain a vile worthless person who is rightfully despised by all rational people. But either way he will not put blood on the hands of the Norwegian people.

I don't know. It's specifically *not* a life sentence and the specified 21 years comes to approximately 3 months for every victim. It even gave me, a bleeding heart in SF, pause.

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Post #: 64

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:11:53 PM

LadyHibiscus

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Did someone want him to be brutalized?

I am glad he won't be able to repeat his actions. I hope that he can do something useful at some point in his life.

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RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:28:04 PM

tweakabelle

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Firstly, thanks to nephandi and Aswad for their eloquent descriptions of the Norwegian justice system and calm logical explanations of the philosophy behind its various components.

It is pleasing to see the broad support Norway's approach has enjoyed in the thread. In many Western countries, policy seems to be led by those who promise the harshest responses to crime and criminals. The Norwegians experience alerts us to the fact that the harshest response is not necessarily the most efficient, cheapest or effective response. Not by a long long shot.

Are there any lessons others can learn from the Norwegian experience? Norway's success - in terms of lower crime rates, fewer criminals, prisons and incarcerated persons, and dramatically reduced costs - is enviable, certainly worth emulating. To me it seems that a criminal justice system based on liberal values, a preparedness to be guided by the evidence and best of contemporary thinking, the adoption of realistic goals and solutions informed by compassion and human rights can be implemented anywhere.

The only thing that stops the adoption of such a more humane, effective and cheaper criminal justice system is revenge-driven opposition, IOW, us.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/24/2012 4:30:19 PM >

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RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:30:51 PM

calamitysandra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Did someone want him to be brutalized?

I am glad he won't be able to repeat his actions. I hope that he can do something useful at some point in his life.

Yes, Phoenixpower voiced that sentiment.

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Post #: 67

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:32:50 PM

LadyHibiscus

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Did she? Okay. It's very true that in an American prison he'd be in a whole other world of horror. But I don't think they believe in rehabilitation here.

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RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:36:42 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Absolutely an apples to elephants comparison, for so many reasons...

First and foremost history. The benefit occurs over time. We're tough on crime, not tough on criminals, as a rule. Crime, we've all but wiped out. And, let's face it, the classic idea of being "tough on crim(inals)" invariably does more harm than good to the population at large. I'm not sure anyone can really afford to have a prison system like that in the USA for any extended period of time.

quote:

What a wonderful system, though, that has all this wrapped up in so short a time. And I don't suppose there will be half a dozen appeals, the way there would be here?

About fourty days in court and a long deliberation isn't exactly a short time. It's been over a year since the crime occured. There could be two appeals and one shot at getting the case reopened, but he knows a new trial would risk psychiatric care due to the way things work around these parts. I doubt he wants to risk that. Who does, really?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 69

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:50:37 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Usually by the remorse he shows in prison lady H. If he shows none it will go on his record when his sentance comes up for review. We have several prisoners in the UK who are serving way more than the courts originally gave them, for that very reason.

Remorse? Um.

I have no response for that. I have known too many genuine sociopaths.

Thats my point though......No show of remorse, which will be minutely monitored, and he stays in jail for life.

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Post #: 70

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:51:48 PM

LadyHibiscus

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Yes, I've been reassured that will be the case.

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RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:57:06 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Did someone want him to be brutalized?

It's a sentiment that I've seen voiced, particularly from the US, but also among some here, as well.

Some think it's okay to stand back and let things like prison rape happen. I think it would be more honest, and speak better of us as people, to have rape on the books as a penalty. And I don't think I need to tell anyone here just how vile I think that idea is, to have a judge say "well, okay, after careful deliberation, I've decided to put you in a cage where you are to be raped one thousand times¹, at which point you will surely have learned your lesson and be ready to become a citizen again... bailiff, get it done."

I don't know what color the sky is in their world, but if heaven's up in that sky, I'll take my chances downstairs instead. By fundie interpretations of "an eye for an eye", people who go through that would pretty much be justified in trying to take down their own country afterwards. After all, the difference is that now it's more malicious, less honest and without the cajones to do it oneself and actually face it as it is going on, to say nothing of the hypocrisy of being able to claim one has something better than Afghanistan for one's citizens in any way.

quote:

You are a lovely young man, Aswad. :)

-blush-

Let's not go overboard, now.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

¹ Back of envelope calculation, supposing it happens once a week in a 20 year sentence.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 72

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 4:59:17 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just so long as he does not get out and decide to immigrate to the US I'll be satisfied....But one thing to remember Manson did not directly kill anyone, at least that is the way I remember it...he just inspired.

This guy pulled the trigger…with glee

But I see what you mean...he cannot seem to hide his evil to be paroled...maybe this guy will not be able to either.

Butch

Manson is as bad in my book, he just ordered the gulliable to do his bidding.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 73

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 5:12:01 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The only thing that stops the adoption of such a more humane, effective and cheaper criminal justice system is revenge-driven opposition, IOW, us.

First tip: drop "humane" from the list, as that closes ears.

Focus on the benefits to the population and the economy. We have plenty of people here that would approve of resuming use of the Brazen Bull, but they can't argue against the efficiency, and the majority are able to get this. Thus, crime remains low in spite of an otherwise incompetent beurocracy (we truly are cursed with incompetency in our leadership culture and political structures up here).

Bear in mind that it is also arguably an evil solution the way it exists up here, as it essentially perpetrates the ethical breach (in the Kantian sense) of- without consent- reducing a human to an instrument of the state, which is a utilitaristic behavior that is normally associated with psychopathy and M-type doms. I don't know about Australia, but even our military is extensively briefed in how that is an extremely serious ethical breach that cannot be tolerated in the armed forces. In a socialist state, that ethical flaw is part and parcel of the mindset, part of the evil of socialism, and it shouldn't be rationalized away or ignored.

As a way to improve the conditions of all citizens, it is the best solution known to our species.

Ethically, it's on shaky grounds unless we ditch Kant.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 74

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 5:16:22 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

And, let's face it, the classic idea of being "tough on crim(inals)" invariably does more harm than good to the population at large. I'm not sure anyone can really afford to have a prison system like that in the USA for any extended period of time.

Yes, yes and yes. Did I say yes? This case is perhaps the clearest and most succinct demonstration of how bankrupt the revenge-driven approach to law and order is.

Norway, with a liberal humane and compassionate criminal justice system designed to rehabilitate offenders has virtually eliminated crime as a real phenomenon, while the USA, with its punitive system designed for punishment and retribution has an enormous crime problem.

The USA has over 2,000,000 of its citizens behind bars, with a total of over 6 million subject to "correctional supervision" of one kind or another. Yet the threads here are full of US citizens complaining about the high crime rate, the 'need' for self defence weapons the alleged 'softness' of the prison system and criminal punishment (jail terms). The cost of maintaining this system is staggering. It is beyond comprehension that these costs are paid annually for such poor results.

Can the choice be starker?

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RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 5:19:22 PM

Politesub53

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Just a point as to how it is done here in the UK.

Anyone given a "life sentence" gets a tariff set by the Judge as punishment. In certain circumstances where two or more people were killed, anything involving sex abuse, a degree of planning, abduction or terrorism can be a given a whole life term. Anyone carrying out a single murder for the above offences can be given a minimum 30 year term. Once these terms are served, the following can apply. The average life sentence starts at 15 years, depending on circumstances.

"The tariff is the minimum period a life sentence prisoner must serve to meet the requirements of retribution and deterrence before being considered for release. After this minimum period has been served release will only take place where the prisoner is judged no longer a risk of harm to the public." ~ As explained in Parliament by Hilary Benn MP back in 2002..

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Post #: 76

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 5:23:12 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

[...]in Norway the punishment is the removal of freedom[...]

And just cause I forgot to address this...

As far as I'm concerned, if the involuntary loss of freedom isn't a horrific punishment in her mind, I wouldn't want her to have the protection of rule of law, police, armed forces and so forth. If one doesn't value freedom highly enough to object deeply to having it taken away by force, then I think one lacks something fundamentally human at best. Even in the most lenient rehab facilities that we have in our prison system, reserved for the last few months to last few years of a sentence, when one is being prepared for the return to the outside world, any prisoner will tell you- sincerely- that «You never forget it's a prison. You're not free.»

I suspect most of our ex-convicts are more aware of the value and price of freedom than most of our regular citizens.

In that sense, and several others, most come out better citizens than they were when they went in.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 77

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 5:55:42 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
It is shocking to me the reactions here to a truly civilized and humane criminal justice system. People were actually hoping this man would be brutalized by other prisoners if he could not be killed by the state.

Brevik will never again harm anyone and he will spend the rest of his life alone with his thoughts. Perhaps he will realize the horror of his beliefs and try to make his peace with his actions and perhaps he will remain a vile worthless person who is rightfully despised by all rational people. But either way he will not put blood on the hands of the Norwegian people.

I salute you, DomKen. That is a Christian - civilized - attitude.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 78

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 7:03:00 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Norway, with a liberal humane and compassionate criminal justice system designed to rehabilitate offenders has virtually eliminated crime as a real phenomenon, while the USA, with its punitive system designed for punishment and retribution has an enormous crime problem.

I wouldn't be so sure of that tweakabelle although I would love to see the principles applied in a test state and see if the results can be repeated here. To me the bottom line is less crime and if that system would work better then ours I'm all for giving it a try.

That said I am not so sure it would work the same way in the multicultural…poorer US. I do believe that Norway’s standard of living and social structure makes a big difference in crime. Take affluent areas of the US…Crime is almost non-existent, at least among those of affluence.

Otherwise take the total population of Norway and set them in the ghettos of St. Louis or LA as an example and have them live by those standards and still have the Norwegian justice system, if they could afford it. I will bet you would not see the same results you see in Norway today…get my point.

But…it would be worth a try.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/24/2012 7:28:33 PM >

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Post #: 79

RE: What gentle people you Norwegians must be. - 8/24/2012 7:45:36 PM

Winterapple

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FR
The US prison system isn't about
rehabilitation, reducing crime rates
or even punishment. It's about money.

The US criminal justice system has been
corrupted by private prison companies
who profit by building prisons, supplying
prisons and exploiting prison labor.

It started in the 70's with stricter drug
laws. Now 50 percent of American inmates
are nonviolent drug offenders mostly
young men.

These prison companies do not want
want to see any leniency in convictions,
sentencing or parole. They don't want
rescources going to crime prevention or
any decriminalization of drug laws.
They are a powerful lobby and pour
money to senators and congressman
to support stricter laws so the prison
population will grow. Since 2000 the
number of inmates in federal private
prisons has grown 120 percent.

The two biggest private prison
companies CCA and GEO Group
raked in revenues of 2.9 billion
dollars in 2010. That's billion
with a b.

This is the prison industrial complex.
The sibling of the military industrial
complex. Angela Davis has a written
a book called The Prison Industrial
Complex. She writes about several
aspects of it including the incarceration
is a remedy for a variety of ills angle.
Ills like homelessness, unemployment,
drug addiction, mental illness and illlteracy.
Lockdown by Christian Parenti is another
book that looks at prison for profit.

As with the gun lobby Americans have
to be kept in a state of paranoia.
The ideas that communities are being
destroyed by prisons for profits can't
be explored. And any ideas about
addressing social issues and looking
realistically at drug laws are to be
villified as bleeding heart liberal do
goodism at its worst.

The US once set the standard for
a humane and rehabilitive prison
system. Europeans were astonished
by it and came and observed it to
try and implement in their own
countries.
We also once had a public school system
worth bragging about to.

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(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 80

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