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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 3:15:11 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Is a man who wants to be dressed like a cheap prostitute and called a filthy shlut 'showing his feminine side' Cloudboy?

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 5:09:22 PM   
SaharahEve


Posts: 231
Joined: 6/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
So men exploring femininity through dress and submission...?


That's a very polite and frilly way to put it (apropos, I guess). As Lady Tigresse mentioned, males who wish to find beauty and grace in feminization manage to be unoffensive, if not a little sad, given that they want to be but will never truly be Women. It's the ones who want to be dressed in ridiculous caricatures of feminine outfits and sexually degraded by being barked at with clearly misogynist phrases that make me laugh and shake my head, especially when they crawl up to me in cheap heels and frayed garter belts and tell me how much they believe in Female Supremacy—lol. I left that scene some time ago due to the level of cognitive dissonance. It started to hurt my brain once I stopped laughing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
An individual is usually just trying to be himself, he does not supply the cultural context of how it is viewed.


I think your understanding of how culture expresses itself through our desires and behaviors is questionable. What we are is often, in part, a mixture of things taught us by the collective as a whole. Mutter the word "whore" loud enough at a dinner party and see what the common reactions tend to be. Most will automatically connote negativity to the idea by their expressions alone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy ...then fem-subs, real females who desire "to have the snot beat out of them" by men with hard-ons, that's misogyny expressed on a much higher level.


And often it is. Many Females who submit to men on that sort of level will admit privately that they are misogynists, so their self-punishment makes some degree of sense. Some are merely self-loathing or want a romp on the cruel side. I don't see them dressing up like men and asking to be called man-hating names. I don't see dungeons in LA or New York brimming with male "cross-dressing rooms" for Ladies who want to pretend to be pussy whipped day laborers for an hour. A Woman simply embracing Her masochism is not quite as offensive to me as otherwise "ordinary" men pretending to be women who are filthy sluts and lowly whores. That's not a "celebration of femininity" to me in the least. It's inversely projecting a "thing" for the degradation of women and feeding a penchant for masochistic psychodrama all in one, big, convoluted yarn ball.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy By that logic, I suppose a dominant TV expresses female empowerment.

Have you not been to New York and watched the cabarets? I know a celebrity TV personally. They are actually quite striking in their guise and they do make a well-practiced study and art of exuding Feminine power. And never mind the openly dominant types.




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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 5:36:35 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't see Mike Rowe as being masculine because he is dirty. I've been equally as dirty as he is in that photo and did not feel any less a woman. The males that were there, didn't seem to mind ogling either.

When you say that being dressed in feminine clothing is degrading, humiliating, or even the lite version....or being out of his element that makes him uneasy... It is still, to me, a negative mindset towards women. Now, if a male wants to dress in typically female clothing to feel pretty, then no, that doesn't phase me at all. For ME, it is the emotions that the act triggers that determines whether it is a positive energy or negative energy regarding women and femininity.


Cloud, I think you need to remove the emotion of your misperceptions of my words and re-read them.


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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 6:26:12 PM   
Baroana


Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
Status: offline 		I think that the best way to expose the transparent sexism in our culture is to take female labels and symbols and apply them to men. We women get the reverse done to us all the time.

Examples:

Let's say I'm dining in my neighborhood T.G.I.Shitty, and the service is slow. The wait staff is both male and female. I say to one of the women, "Hey, why are all you waiters dragging ass tonight?"

Now instead, let's say to a male server, "Hey, how about you waitresses pick up the pace?"

Which one is more likely to get a drink thrown in my face?

Let's say I am on a corporation's board of directors, and I get chosen as the leader. When the company newsletter comes out, the headline reads "Baroana elected as new Chairman of the Board."

What if instead, Mitt Romney gets chosen, and the newsletter says "Romney elected as new Chairwoman of the Board"?

Why is it normal when a woman wears pants, but when a man puts on a dress he's in "drag"?

If Diane Keaton wears a suit and tie on the red carpet, she's spunky. If George Clooney shows up in a Vera Wang gown, I guarantee you Joan Rivers' head will explode.

These to me are not just jokes. They are hugely problematic attitudes.

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 6:39:18 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		That's a great post, Baroana. To add my two cents:

I think your examples are targeted to USA puritanical attitudes. Men wearing drag in the UK don't have the same taboo as here, perhaps because of the history of all-boys' schools in the UK, and someone needed to play the female parts in the school plays. Whatever the reason, drag queen seems like a much more respected job on that side of the pond, and playing crying games over there is less likely to get you killed.

Similarly, men in drag seems more humorous than disgusting in Japan, though both Japan and the UK definitely have issues about the status of women in those countries. The manifestation is different though.

Also, I think a woman in the US who wears man's pants, and a man's shirt, and it isn't her boyfriend's shirt, is risking being called a dyke in public. I've certainly seen it happen, in central California (not North Carolina).

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 6:41:58 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		No one has ever called me a dyke, ever. Not even when I wore flannel shirts.

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 6:54:17 PM   
StrictlyADomina


Posts: 103
Joined: 7/11/2011
Status: offline 		Role reversal, yes it does definitely make the Feminist in me bristle.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 6:58:35 PM   
pyschosubmission


Posts: 1109
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From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrictlyADomina

Role reversal, yes it does definitely make the Feminist in me bristle.


For me, Role reversal doesn't, if you mean female led rather than male led relationship

But when you move into feminisation as a form of humiliation I want to stand atop a soap box and start quoting shit about the patriarchy

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 7:40:46 PM   
subCD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
You don't have to like feminine guys, or strap on play, but its not right to intimate that those guys are flawed or beg you to participate in misogynistic acts.


Couldn't agree more!

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 7:52:14 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
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Good points. You have a lot more experience than I do. I would say that a proper guy would want to see how you might want to engage his kink, and that the improper one wants you to engage his fantasy without regard to your own thoughts and feelings.

Children are innocent and are just trying to be themselves, that's why I thought the NYT article was so interesting -- we cannot apply loaded terms to their conduct. Arguably, too, we as adults exhibit a part of our inner child through our kinks.

I like the concept of "middle space" regarding gender roles, and that space does not have to be misogynistic, degrading, or humiliating in and of itself. But, its an extrinsic cultural fact that men in dress invite ridicule and derision. The man in the dress does not create this derision, its foisted on him by the public and its mores regarding gender acceptable behavior.

I would also agree that idiots and tactless dolts deserve the mockery they get and could be insulting to an audience. But men, as a rule, don't get to practice middle space and develop their talents in it. Go back two centuries and pull a woman out of the knitting room and then ask her to wield a sword or throw a spear and she might get laughed off the field.

quote:

male "cross-dressing rooms" for Ladies


Women don't need "cross dressing rooms," all they have to do is go into their own closet.

Women, meanwhile, took to wearing pants, working outside the home and playing a wider array of sports. Domains once exclusively masculine became more neutral territory, especially for prepubescent girls, and the idea of a girl behaving “like a boy” lost its stigma. A 1998 study in the academic journal Sex Roles suggests just how ordinary it has become for girls to exist in the middle space: it found that 46 percent of senior citizens, 69 percent of baby boomers and 77 percent of Gen-X women reported having been tomboys.

no one would raise an eyebrow at a girl who likes throwing a football or wearing a Spider-Man T-shirt.

Gender-nonconforming behavior of girls, however, is rarely studied, in part because departures from traditional femininity are so pervasive and accepted.

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 8:11:10 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Cloud, I think you need to remove the emotion of your misperceptions of my words and re-read them.


I was asking you a separate question, namely, what word would you choose to describe those sub stories. "Degrading" if often bandied about when men go into middle space -- this is what you noted. The question is, what other words might also be used.

Sorry if it looked like I was taking offense to what you said, I just wanted you to take that last thought a little further. I should have written my post better, and I apologize.


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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/27/2012 11:14:21 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Can we please stop the bullshit about how receiving strap on play is feminine? It is a ridiculous claim that a male enjoying a form of anal play is anything less than a man. It's about as silly as people who decide that any male who likes anal play must be homosexual.

For all of the "just trying to be themselves" thing that's getting pushed on this thread, the favor should probably be returned to those male, straight, MASCULINE submissive who engage in strap on play, rather than people trying to insinuate otherwise.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 2:19:31 AM   
PerfectSurrender


Posts: 22
Joined: 1/29/2006
From: Saint Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline 		It's not all translating harsh stereotypes about women and plagiarizing bad porn.

I find some misandry in the notion that the destruction of maleness is desirable or that one must become feminine to be objectified. Usually it's perpetrated
by men that have carried over into the bedroom/dungeon the social norms that have developed over the last half century. That's the fault of men, women and extremist feminists that have created unhealthy ideas about maleness. The other part, a much smaller part, is that heterosexual men usually have no clue whatsoever about why maleness is desirable to women.

Those norms are notions of maleness that make the male feel unsexy, unreceptive and generally unwanted. More so expendable, more so a pawn.
Never really an object of desire beyond what he can offer financially, in terms of status or in terms of his ability to be a human meat shield. It's therefore not surprising that many men would want to exorcise such gender roles by delving into extremes of female identity. It isn't really about women or men's feelings regarding women as much as it is men's feelings about maleness. It's only about women insofar as the kind of woman they might portray and yeah that's bad and yeah that's reflective of very negative views regarding women in society but, let's face it, more so regarding women in porn.

I am a submissive for positive reasons yet it'd be a lie to say I haven't been touched by these facts of male existence. It's true that I've delved into some of the behavior discussed in this thread precisely because I was attempting to exorcise those feelings. It never crossed my mind that I was a sexist pig, because I certainly wasn't. If anything I was lashing out against a life experience that taught me I was the predator, the one that harms, the one that takes, the one that is unfeeling, unflinching, hyper-sexual, indelicate; an experience crafted by the careless words of women probably more so than my experience with other men.

Other men take this negativity on a different trip. They internalize it, surrender to it and buy into "FinDom" because at least then they're used rather than useless. Dumb dicks with a job.

All in all I'd speculate this is a men's issue and has really very little to do with women. It's probably more hurtful and irritating for men after all is said and done.
At least for some women it's fun behind the whip. For some men some serious shit is being worked out. I really don't foresee it changing until men's issues are taken as seriously as feminism.

Of course there are plenty of men where it's flat out misogyny, but I'm sure that dead horse will be beaten without my help. I agree that it's some creepy bullshit and if I were a Domme it'd turn me off plenty. It's like being in an inter-racial relationship and showing up in the bedroom in blackface while yelling "GIMME DAT!" As a sub I have no desire whatsoever to put on women's clothing because it makes me "less." I only put on women's clothing if it pleases my partner or if I just feel like it's an awesome thing to do.

< Message edited by PerfectSurrender -- 8/28/2012 2:29:48 AM >

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 4:24:21 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:

the indirect misogyny of men dressing up like women and expecting to have the snot beat out of them while being penetrated by a strap-on wielding mistress


So men exploring femininity through dress and submission -- express misogyny? By that logic, I suppose a dominant TV expresses female empowerment.

An individual is usually just trying to be himself, he does not supply the cultural context of how it is viewed.

If a man wants to feel like a female submissive, and if that's misogynistic, then fem-subs, real females who desire "to have the snot beat out of them" by men with hard-ons, that's misogyny expressed on a much higher level.

A guy willing show his feminine side, as I see it, he's actually the brave soul in all these equations, just like femsubs in the age of feminism are brave to make their own counter-intuitive choices.

You don't have to like feminine guys, or strap on play, but its not right to intimate that those guys are flawed or beg you to participate in misogynistic acts.


I cannot speak for Saharah Eve but I can answer with my own feelings on the subject, as well as the question you were asking me earlier when we both got a bit off the rail.

As I alluded to in a previous post, for ME.......the intent and/or energy of the act of the male dressing in the traditionally feminine gear is what matters. Any of the actions you've mentioned, while they may not be my interest therefor not something I would participate in, would not give me the squick factor or be seen as a negative persay. For ME, it is the drive behind the action. IF the man is doing any of the above because he sees it as feminine and humiliating, then it's gonna be a negative. If the man is doing it because it's simply true to his nature (as the kids in the article......I am reminded of a Seinfeld episode with George and velvet) and it feels good to him, with no negative humiliation because it's a female thing, then I would be fully supportive and cheering him on in his endevours.

I actually believe that a lot more male children would choose to dress in a more 'feminine' way, if the road blocks were not put up. I have a nephew and a grandson that likely would. Neither boy is particularly feminine in any other way but they both, at various times in childhood, grabbed a girl's or woman's article of clothing or adornment and played with it. I've also got a grand daughter that vehemently wants nothing to do with dresses and 'girly' clothes. Yet she chose hot pink and silver sneakers for her new school shoes and loves jewelry.

I do think it sucks that it is easier for girls and women to enjoy the more gender fluid way of dressing and expressing themselves. Hell, I am standing here, at my kitchen counter in nothing but a pair of undies, flip flops, and an oversized mens flannel shirt that I love. Oh, and these god damned reading glasses I seem to need more and more to avoid headaches. I believe they also came from the 'men's' rack. Yet, with that description I guarantee no one that might see me in this goofy outfit would call me masculine. Even without the toenail polish! I know Generic Dude doesn't even think twice about it. Though to his credit, he's had 22+ years to become immune to my oddities.

A man, expressing himself similarly, would be given the hairy eyeball. In movies and television it's a guaranteed comedy gig. A cheap shot really. No, it's not fair. Not by a long shot. BUT, I do see a very slow change in that, in our younger generations. I see more gender fluidity than ever before. More hetro guys wearing makeup, jewelry, and even some 'women's' clothing. Granted, I work in a college town and see more than most in my little part of the country/world. But I do see it and I do believe it does create change. Agonizingly slow as it may be.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 9:41:42 AM   
DianeB269


Posts: 1596
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Can we please stop the bullshit about how receiving strap on play is feminine? It is a ridiculous claim that a male enjoying a form of anal play is anything less than a man. It's about as silly as people who decide that any male who likes anal play must be homosexual.

For all of the "just trying to be themselves" thing that's getting pushed on this thread, the favor should probably be returned to those male, straight, MASCULINE submissive who engage in strap on play, rather than people trying to insinuate otherwise.



I couldn't of said it any better...

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 10:21:30 AM   
PrincessDonna11


Posts: 289
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you D I have felt that way for quite some time!

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 11:08:47 AM   
Baroana


Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DianeB269


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Can we please stop the bullshit about how receiving strap on play is feminine? It is a ridiculous claim that a male enjoying a form of anal play is anything less than a man. It's about as silly as people who decide that any male who likes anal play must be homosexual.




I couldn't of said it any better...



But that's just it. I've asked guys what they like about strap-ons, and in response they tend to bring up the whole "role reversal" thing. The inference I make is that to them, strap-on play = role reversal = feminization of the male = the male feels humiliated.


< Message edited by Baroana -- 8/28/2012 11:10:17 AM >

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 11:20:29 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I haven't had a similar experience, Baroana, though I agree yours is pretty commonplace.

We have sex because it feels good. If it doesn't feel good to me on a mental and emotional level, I just don't do it. So, I refuse to entertain the "humiliation" angle. Lots of other women will, for whatever reason.

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 12:04:46 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Using FR:

For many, having a strap on used on them *IS* perceived as feminine -- just as being sub is perceived as feminine. And therefore, somewhat humiliating, and LESSER.

Society perceptions don't have to be accurate in any way to be wide spread and of long standing.

As I've said before, my opinion on gender is that we are all of us a combination of male and female. Sure, we present with our plumbing, so to speak, but who we are gender wise is so much more than mere plumbing. Our brain wiring and thus many personality traits can be broken down into what is perceived as masculine and feminine. This is a time honored tradition. (Doubt me? Think about why the French or Italian language have masculine and feminine words.)

That females are lesser is etched into our DNA.

Although I won't bore you with details, the subject of just exactly how females became the "lesser" sex is fascinating from an evolutionary anthropology point of view. Current theory is that although female were considered essential in terms of their ability to birth children, males become the "preferred" sex early on. For argument's sake, let's say it's something as basic as: in a hunter/gatherer society, males were needed to hunt food and keep the tribe safe, and that ability was deemed more valuable than gathering food and birthing/caring for children.

After all, if no one is safe, you have no one to care for.

What is my point here?

Saying you are a feminist is all well and good. Saying females are equal to males is all well and good. We are not treated as such in the US in so many areas of our lives (salary being merely one) it is painful for me to discuss.

Since WWII our society has been making incremental changes to the fixed idea that females are inferior. Let's remember, the ERA was not ratified in this country. We continue to make tiny changes to the good when great parents raise great sons and daughters who don't buy into the bullshit.

Sorry, jumped onto my soapbox and had a tall moment.

Carry on.


< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 8/28/2012 12:05:44 PM >

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RE: Role "Reversal" - 8/28/2012 12:33:28 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
But that's just it. I've asked guys what they like about strap-ons, and in response they tend to bring up the whole "role reversal" thing. The inference I make is that to them, strap-on play = role reversal = feminization of the male = the male feels humiliated.
Not to downplay your frustration on the matter. I've run into some who have brought this to the table. For Me, that's an automatic sign of incompatibility. I'm kind of big on males that can be strong enough in their submission and masculinity not to fall back on their "feminine side" in order to submit. Sex of any kind with Me being humiliating isn't the vibe that I want in My bedroom. Anybody who has to feel like they are less in any way to endure engaging with Me can just keep on walking.

What I feel is happening on this thread is that the issue is being clouded by legitimate transgender issues and strap on play being thrown in the same basket as the "feminize to make him less" crowd. These are not the same things but are being brought into the discussion, I believe, to draw others into acceptance of one kink because they happen to like the other.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Baroana)
Profile   Post #: 60
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