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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/20/2012 5:54:55 AM

DonRosti

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/20/2012 6:25:46 AM

Rochsub2009

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Okay guys, this is starting to get a bit too personal, and you're derailing the educational dialogue that we were having.

@Wh0re - We get it. You don't like financial Dommes, and you think they're all prostitutes who prey on the weak and uninformed.

@MistressZaraUK - We understand your point as well. You believe that pro Dommes are not the same as financial dommes, and that they serve a valuable role in the BDSM community (that happens to be my belief as well, BTW).

You've both made your points, and now the discussion is just devolving into a petty spat. So may I suggest that you both holster your weapons, and we call it a tie?

I believe that this has been the definitive discussion on financial domination that we've had on these boards. There have been some harsh words, and lots of differing opinions, but after 17 pages (and still counting), I think we've done a pretty good job of presenting the many sides of the discussion (both pro and con). Hopefully, people will look back on this thread as an educational resource when this topic comes up in the future (and believe me, it WILL come up. It always does).

Whether you're for financial domination or against it, I think we can all agree that there are few activities within the BDSM community that are more polarizing. And that's why this conversation was necessary in the first place.

Thanks to all who shared your thoughts and opinions on this misunderstood and polarizing topic.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 12/20/2012 6:27:57 AM >

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/20/2012 6:58:18 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
Whether you're for financial domination or against it, I think we can all agree that there are few activities within the BDSM community that are more polarizing. And that's why this conversation was necessary in the first place.

I think part of the issue here is the changing definition of "BDSM community." The rise of findomme correlates with the rise of internet domination. Pampered princesses were not a historical staple of the BDSM scene, except as subs, who were spoiled by their daddy doms. There are a fair number of "traditionalists" (for lack of a better word) who think kink isn't real unless it's performed in the public, club-oriented scene. Since findomme doesn't tend to be there, it must be fake, hence a scam.

As a result, you find people like Miss Zara, who is knowledgeable about her local scene, but not about this topic. Her comment to me that I might be a "small man who has never even been to a club" is also revealing. The implication is that I have no right to have a position about BDSM if I don't go to kink clubs. And please understand, I mean this as an example of a general attitude. I'm not picking on Zara personally; she just happens to be here on the thread, exhibiting the traits I want to discuss.

The rise in the availability of internet BDSM is similar, in my eyes, to the sudden ability to order sex toys online some years back. Women are far more likely to order sex toys through the mail than they are to go to a sex shop. Similarly, a lot of the women I have played with (or dated) have hard-limited any participation in the local scene. You no longer have to be public to be kinky -- not that you ever did, but it is less and less necessary now. This leaves people rooted in the club scene, who believe it to be the entire universe of genuine BDSM, confused and clueless about how kink is developing.

Point being: a lot of the criticism of findomme comes from a misunderstanding of how it fits into BDSM, because people on the scene don't accept the kink universe findomme fits into as a valid one.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/20/2012 7:36:34 AM

Rochsub2009

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RedMagic1,
Very insightful comment (as usual). And I agree with you completely.

I still remember the good old days when we struggled to meet others who were like us. The BDSM community was like an oasis in the desert. It was secretive, and hard to find. And it became the definitive way of doing BDSM.

Nobody in the local BDSM club asked people for money (other than membership dues, or to help pay for sodas), or had an Amazon wish list. Frankly, Amazon didn't even exist back then. Receiving money wasn't a goal. Our focus was more on tying one another up, spanking, flogging, caging, etc.

There were no "financial Dommes" in DDI magazine (some of you oldheads may remember that publication).

But the internet has changed everything. And those who insist on holding onto the rules and models of the past are much like the old lady in the grocery store line who holds up all of the other customers as she slowly writes out a check.

Are checks still a valid form of payment? Certainly. But it's no longer the standard, and it doesn't recognize that technology has brought new options that aren't necessarily better than checks, but they're certainly different.

New technology brought us the "financial Domme". Everyone should get used to it.

I've still never had anyone ask me to "pay tribute" or buy things from a "wish list" at the local BDSM club. But the majority of BDSM activity no longer takes place at the local BDSM club. The number of kinksters on the internet dwarfs the number in local groups/clubs. People need to accept that, and recognize the new paradigms that come with that change.

And I'm sure that the large number of vanilla folks who are reading 50 Shades of Grey are going to cause even more changes in our once secret society. But change is good.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 12/20/2012 8:33:10 AM >

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/20/2012 12:20:42 PM

TNDommeK

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Will do Roch, as I said there is no educating someone who doesn't want to learn, that knows everything.

RedMagic, I think you are right as well. Times have brought changes. (Although I love going to sex shops for toys,lol) I think there is room for all types of people's kinks. Hell I hate to admit it but even the "fuck you, pay me" gal are wanted..otherwise I'm sure they would have given up years ago. I did attend munches in Memphis from time to time. But I never would EVER EVER go to one under the circumstances of "give Me money" Hell I don't do that now. I have however seen those princesses at a couple of parties I went to in Memphis.

I think this thread is very educational for all sides of people who want to learn something. Hell I'm 32 and still learn things from these forums.

ETA: I also agree with Zara, I think fin and pro are two different things.

< Message edited by TNDommeK -- 12/20/2012 12:22:30 PM >

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/20/2012 6:03:07 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Point being: a lot of the criticism of findomme comes from a misunderstanding of how it fits into BDSM, because people on the scene don't accept the kink universe findomme fits into as a valid one.

Interesting observation. That would align well with the general disdain for "online D/s", "SecondLife", and the like. It would also explain my lack of reaction to findommes. For me it was a part of the BDSM universe from the beginning so it was just another wacky thing to absorb.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/20/2012 7:32:16 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

It's Christmas. I'm really trying hard to cut down on my snark.

Santa (Kana) is going to be really good to you this year!!

Why else would I try and be nice? I mean, it's really hard to hold your breath when you wanna tell someone they are an idiot.

Oh....and Redmagic, well said! Very insightful and something I have always believed as well. Having been in both the club and party scene to taking it private I can say it definitely was how you described it. I liked what Rochsub had to add to it also.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 12/20/2012 7:37:21 PM >

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 1:06:13 AM

Teroh

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It's a matter of opinion more than anything. As far as I know there's no supreme BDSM council to assert legitimacy to it. My opinion though, legitimate or not, it's a practice or concept riddled with feasibility and legal issues too numerous and boring for me to list. On top of that, I can't help thinking how pathetic it is... On the part of both parties. In an ideal world I'd try to be understanding and say 'to each his or her own', but realistically I believe most people are on the same page as me, it is pathetic, and cheapens the legitimacy of the lifestyle as a whole in the eyes of the world.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 3:06:22 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Thanks to all who shared your thoughts and opinions on this misunderstood and polarizing topic.

To be honest, I'm not really sure why it's all that misunderstood. It's really the age-old story from a male point of view: "Does she like me for who I am, or does she just like my money? Am I being used, or does this person truly care about me?" Whether it's in a BDSM context or vanilla makes no difference. The feeling is still the same.

To me, it's easy to understand why there are so many threads started on this subject. What I don't understand is the responses to such threads. Why are there any responses at all? Why aren't threads of this topic ever ignored? What is the "red flag" that seems to set people off whenever some disgruntled male sub broaches this issue?

I sometimes think that the findomme complaint threads could be started by trolls just trying to pull everyone's chain.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 6:39:59 AM

AllisonWilder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teroh

It's a matter of opinion more than anything. As far as I know there's no supreme BDSM council to assert legitimacy to it. My opinion though, legitimate or not, it's a practice or concept riddled with feasibility and legal issues too numerous and boring for me to list. On top of that, I can't help thinking how pathetic it is... On the part of both parties. In an ideal world I'd try to be understanding and say 'to each his or her own', but realistically I believe most people are on the same page as me, it is pathetic, and cheapens the legitimacy of the lifestyle as a whole in the eyes of the world.

Financial Domination isn't pathetic. It's exciting. I feel a rush when I'm getting in someones head, figuring them out and learning what buttons to push for desired reactions and results. I micro-manage their lives, I give instructions, I meet in real time and I show them that I am every bit as genuine as they are. I get to know them, form a bond, gain their trust, all the while consuming their thoughts. My subs want nothing more than to see me smile. They come to me, begging to work extra shifts or overtime so that they can lay cash at my feet and give me things. They want to give. It excites them to do this. It is not forced or coerced, it's consensual and mutually satisfying.

There's often more to these relationships than meets the eye, but outsiders don't know that and they don't care to ask, either. They only see bratty newbies looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and these fakers shouldn't define those of us who don't abuse the kink or those of us that truly have this fetish.

I, for one, am tired of being lumped together with prostitutes, bratty princesses and pro-Dommes. I have no issue with any of these things, except for the ones that are never heard from again after payment has been sent. They all serve a real purpose, but none of them are financial Dommes.

FD couldn't possibly cheapen the legitimacy of the lifestyle as a whole in the eyes of the world because aside from the lovers of 50 Shades of Grey, the eyes of the world are pretty closed to BDSM. I'd guess that the majority of the world, the ones that are not open to BDSM, aren't going to be opposed to just finDommes, they're likely going to be opposed to the lifestyle as a whole.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 7:07:34 AM

Rochsub2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

To be honest, I'm not really sure why it's all that misunderstood. It's really the age-old story from a male point of view: "Does she like me for who I am, or does she just like my money? Am I being used, or does this person truly care about me?" Whether it's in a BDSM context or vanilla makes no difference. The feeling is still the same.

Zonie63,
I think you make an excellent point. And as a guy, I know exactly what you mean. I think most guys have wrestled with the question of whether she would like us as much if we were a cab driver or unemployed.

The thing with financial Dommes is that they don't hide the fact that they want your money. So in some ways, they're the most honest women out there, and men should appreciate that. But obviously that's not the response that they get. Instead, they're usually met with venom, anger, and name calling.

I'm always amazed that people in the BDSM community think nothing is wrong with a woman wanting to kick a man in the balls, tie him up, piss on him, force him to dress in women's clothing, use him as a piece of furniture, ride him like a pony, laugh at the size of his penis, put him on a leash and take him for a walk like a dog, force him to sleep in a cage, make him suck another man's penis, cheat on him (cuckolding), and then make him eat her shit (literally). All of those activities are viewed as being completely "normal", and the woman who did them would be seen as a totally respectable Domme. But if that same woman decides to ask a man for money, then she's immediately viewed as the spawn of Satan, and she's likely to receive scorn-filled e-mails.

To an outsider, that last paragraph probably sounds ridiculous. But we all know that it's a completely accurate description of what actually happens in the BDSM community. It's kinda silly when you think about it.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 12/21/2012 7:13:45 AM >

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 7:12:35 AM

Rochsub2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllisonWilder

I'd guess that the majority of the world, the ones that are not open to BDSM, aren't going to be opposed to just finDommes, they're likely going to be opposed to the lifestyle as a whole.

Exactly! We're ALL freaks in the eyes of the vanilla world. That's why I'm always amazed that the "freaks" are so willing to label financial Dommes. That's like the pot calling the kettle black.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 7:20:49 AM

Rochsub2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teroh
I can't help thinking how pathetic it is... On the part of both parties.

Why is it pathetic (particularly if both parties agree to it)? Is it more "pathetic" than being a human toilet? Is it more pathetic than craving humiliation?

quote:

In an ideal world I'd try to be understanding and say 'to each his or her own', but realistically I believe most people are on the same page as me, it is pathetic, and cheapens the legitimacy of the lifestyle as a whole in the eyes of the world.

I think you may be right about the fact that the majority probably share your opinion. Just look at how many threads we have each week that complain about financial Dommes.

However, I disagree with your point that it cheapens the legitimacy of the lifestyle in the eyes of the world. Frankly, I doubt that most vanilla folks even know that financial Dommes even exist. However, they probably have a pretty negative opinion of the kinks that they are aware of. So the all of the rest of us (i.e. non financial Dommes) are doing a great job of cheapening the lifestyle in the eyes of the world.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 7:23:41 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllisonWilder
I, for one, am tired of being lumped together with prostitutes, bratty princesses and pro-Dommes. I have no issue with any of these things, except for the ones that are never heard from again after payment has been sent. They all serve a real purpose, but none of them are financial Dommes.

You're skirting on the edge of a logical fallacy (or perhaps you've plunged right in). The bratty princesses call themselves findommes, as do plenty of ladies with NiteFlirt lines and no long term relationships. Their claim on the dictionary definition of "true findomme" is at least as good as yours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

We need more terms: ignore fetish, financial humiliatrix, manage your finances fetish, and so on.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 8:40:57 AM

AllisonWilder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: AllisonWilder
I, for one, am tired of being lumped together with prostitutes, bratty princesses and pro-Dommes. I have no issue with any of these things, except for the ones that are never heard from again after payment has been sent. They all serve a real purpose, but none of them are financial Dommes.

You're skirting on the edge of a logical fallacy (or perhaps you've plunged right in). The bratty princesses call themselves findommes, as do plenty of ladies with NiteFlirt lines and no long term relationships. Their claim on the dictionary definition of "true findomme" is at least as good as yours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

We need more terms: ignore fetish, financial humiliatrix, manage your finances fetish, and so on.

In my opinion (and I am aware that I do not speak for everyone), a bratty princess, while very much a part of the financial fetish, is not what I would call a finDomme, they're two completely different things. There are some that can wear both hats, but most fall into just one category.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 12:28:23 PM

TNDommeK

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Oh my goodness I couldn't wait for you to come back Allison,lol. For some reason I feel like you explain a bit better than I, I just look at some of the things uneducated and unwilling to learn people post, and ignore them after a while. I wanted to say something about what you said..these subs COME TO US and lay money at our feet. There is no swindling, scammng or the like going on. This is what they WANT to do, as well as what I want them to do. I could post plenty of cmail here that starts out "Goddess I got something off your wishlist for you" or "please allow me to tribute". And as I have said numerous times, not one time have I ever emailed a male on this site. Nor do I search for them, seek them out, or "play on their vulnerability".

Redmagic I do agree with you as well, I think there should be other names for these bratty princesses and such. Very good idea.

Teroh- so your kink is better and doesn't cheapen things?

< Message edited by TNDommeK -- 12/21/2012 12:30:44 PM >

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 12:40:16 PM

AllisonWilder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Oh my goodness I couldn't wait for you to come back Allison,lol. For some reason I feel like you explain a bit better than I, I just look at some of the things uneducated and unwilling to learn people post, and ignore them after a while. I wanted to say something about what you said..these subs COME TO US and lay money at our feet. There is no swindling, scammng or the like going on. This is what they WANT to do, as well as what I want them to do. I could post plenty of cmail here that starts out "Goddess I got something off your wishlist for you" or "please allow me to tribute". And as I have said numerous times, not one time have I ever emailed a male on this site. Nor do I search for them, seek them out, or "play on their vulnerability".

Redmagic I do agree with you as well, I think there should be other names for these bratty princesses and such. Very good idea.

Teroh- so your kink is better and doesn't cheapen things?

I feel like you explain things very well, too, actually, but thanks! :)

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 1:09:32 PM

seekingreality

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
Whether you're for financial domination or against it, I think we can all agree that there are few activities within the BDSM community that are more polarizing. And that's why this conversation was necessary in the first place.

I think part of the issue here is the changing definition of "BDSM community." The rise of findomme correlates with the rise of internet domination. Pampered princesses were not a historical staple of the BDSM scene, except as subs, who were spoiled by their daddy doms. There are a fair number of "traditionalists" (for lack of a better word) who think kink isn't real unless it's performed in the public, club-oriented scene. Since findomme doesn't tend to be there, it must be fake, hence a scam.

I would question whether there is even such a thing as a "BDSM community." There are all sorts of people who engage in BDSM all along the spectrum. And many really have no desire to be part of any kind of community.

I have no problem if someone wants to pay a domme for services. I have no problem if someone gets a sexual charge out of giving someone money. Neither is my thing, but to each his own.

The only issue I'd have is if people are being misled or have misconceptions about what they are getting for their money.

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 1:30:08 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
I think there should be other names for these bratty princesses and such. Very good idea.

As a first step, I think a useful separation would be between women who pay-to-play, and those who prefer full-on scheduling and control. "Tribute findomme" as opposed to "lifestyle findomme" or something along those lines.

I think that, as the fetish evolves, different categories of financial domination will become more clear. Right now, everyone is using just one word, and it's impeding communication. One difference I've seen on profiles is that pay-to-players emphasize camming and sessioning for tribute, while women more interested in the long view say things like, "I want to control all aspects of your life."

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RE: Is financial domination a legitimate form of D/s? - 12/21/2012 1:42:48 PM

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~FR

After reading some of the posts... why does the old phrase "gold digger" come to mind? Not knocking anyone who does,,, or who wants go give...

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