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RE: Rape-babies - 9/12/2012 6:26:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

quote:

What about those babies with birth defects, who pays for them?


So because a child isn't going to be perfect we kill them? Even children with birth defects have value.


Try answering her question. Who is going to pay?

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/12/2012 6:42:52 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

quote:

What about those babies with birth defects, who pays for them?


So because a child isn't going to be perfect we kill them? Even children with birth defects have value.

What she is talking about is babies that the Right wishes to protect until they are born and then abandon them by destroying the social services they will depend on for the rest of their frequently nonfunctional lives.
Please don't be deliberately obtuse..

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/12/2012 7:03:06 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


So because a child isn't going to be perfect we kill them? Even children with birth defects have value.


Please stop being so extraordinarily obtuse. Who said we should kill all babies with birth defects?

When I was pregnant with my second child, almost 30 years ago now, they had the (new) technology to detect some birth defects. They offered it to me in case I might want to abort. I refused.

So get over yourself. No one said babies with birth defects didn't have value.

There might, however, be circumstances where people might want or need to abort babies with birth defects.

I generally do not engage in political discussion, but tonight I appear to be in a mood.

You know, I believe everything in this universe has value. Everything. Everything you eat. Everything you wear. Everything around you. In everything you do, all kinds of small things that you consider insignificant and of no value get sacrificed so you can exist. So please, spare me your self righteous piety.

We all make choices in this life, and some of us have to make extremely difficult ones. If you have yet to make any hard ones, be thankful.



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RE: Rape-babies - 9/12/2012 7:09:11 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Will admit to not having read the whole thread.

The first thing that came to mind when I read this was, well, an unwanted pregnancy is an unwanted pregnancy - regardless of why the pregnancy is unwanted. To me, the "rape exception" that some conservatives feel more comfortable with is convenient for argument's sake, however, I still contend an unwanted pregnancy is an unwanted pregnancy and a woman should not have to justify their decision (whether it is to go to term, or terminate) to anyone.

Beyond that I agree with the other pro-choice sentiments that have already been expressed that more directly answer the specific questions that you pose.

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/12/2012 8:59:25 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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I would find someone who wanted it and hopefully want to pay all the medicle costs and what not.

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/12/2012 10:20:43 PM   
erieangel


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I'm aging myself.

I was in the 7th grade when Roe v. Wade was passed. My social studies teacher immediately decided we should have a class room debate on the issue. I was assigned with the team that was anti-abortion. And I quickly learned I couldn't argue with them convincingly.

It does bother me that some women chose to use abortion as a form of birth control. I've even known women who don't use any other form. I think that's wrong, careless and feeds into the arguments of the right wing. These women say they just can't be bothered to take a pill every day, or get a shot. And they use the excuse that no form of birth control is 100% effective as their justification.

Which brings me to another troubling issue about abortion--the Hyde amendment, which says that no federal funds can be used for abortion except in the instance of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother. Medicaid will pay for birth control of all kinds. But if that birth control fails, a person of low income means has no choice but to have the child unless they can scrap together the funds for an abortion in many states, though admittedly some states will use state funds to pay for abortions. Congress recently voted to ban D.C. from using city funds to pay for abortions. So if a person is on welfare, doesn't want a child, but gets pregnant anyway, that child probably goes on welfare. And it costs thousands more to raise a child for even a few years on welfare (with all the subsidies of WIC, low income housing, child care subsidies so that the parents can work, etc.) than it does to pay for an abortion. Plus the child has problems, from not being wanted--there is a lack of parental love in the household.


Which leads me to OP's questions. I've aged myself and I can no longer have children. However, if Roe v. Wade were not the law of the land a few years ago and I did find myself in that situation, I would do everything to abort this unwanted child. I've raised two children on my own, have a new career going and it is my time. Given my mental illness, dealing with the aftermath of rape would be hard enough. I would not be able to look at any child conceived under those circumstances let alone provide a loving home. I've been suicidal in the past, this kind of horror may push me over the edge.

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 5:29:31 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Refusing to pay for abortion, for whatever reason, yet saddling the state or the city or the fed govt. with the costs of raising said child is beyond ludicrous policy.

That type of policy does not reflect a separation of church and state. It *is* a reflection of male dominated politics that see child rearing as a way to keep women in their place.

And I agree with ftp, I think women should have the right to abort, no matter what the reason, that the pregnancy is unwanted should be reason enough. And I am one who believe life DOES begin at conception.

But if the mother does not want the child, what *can* its prognosis for a healthy, happy childhood be?

I also think abortion should be legal until the fetus is viable outside the mother's womb. To date I believe the earliest age of viability was at 21 weeks. So let's say 20 weeks.

It's easy to say all life has value. I certainly agree with that lovely sentiment. The hard facts are that we live on an over populated and thus highly stressed planet called Earth. Sure, in an ideal world we would all live together in harmony and work to feed each other and not pollute our planet into destruction. Look around you, this is not what's happening.

That there are politicians behaving like ostriches and sticking their heads in the sand about our serious need for population control (not to mention pollution control) is yet another thing I find ludicrous. Reasons why I don't get into political discussions often. I find all of it so incredibly moronic.

Far too many people think like silly stupid birds instead of intelligent human beings.



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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 5:43:54 AM   
blnymph


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Living in a European country where all these things were discussed and fought and decided decades ago (Thanks to the generation of my mother and grandmothers ...) one argument still sounds so unbelievable it only makes me sick


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX
...

So - if this ever came to be, and you (a woman) were raped by a stranger, became pregnant, what would you do?

- would you feel blessed because "God" gave you the chance to give life?
...



In that kind of logic a rapist is doing God's will and seems even blessed by (who cares ...) in what he does ... is this for real or satire?

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 6:14:38 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

It's easy to say all life has value. I certainly agree with that lovely sentiment. The hard facts are that we live on an over populated and thus highly stressed planet called Earth. Sure, in an ideal world we would all live together in harmony and work to feed each other and not pollute our planet into destruction. Look around you, this is not what's happening.

That there are politicians behaving like ostriches and sticking their heads in the sand about our serious need for population control (not to mention pollution control) is yet another thing I find ludicrous. Reasons why I don't get into political discussions often. I find all of it so incredibly moronic.

Over population and the damage we are doing to our planet from our agro/industrial practices are not a concern to people who believe the Rapture is right around the corner.

Sadly, this IS still a priority:

quote:

Refusing to pay for abortion, for whatever reason, yet saddling the state or the city or the fed govt. with the costs of raising said child is beyond ludicrous policy.

That type of policy does not reflect a separation of church and state. It *is* a reflection of male dominated politics that see child rearing as a way to keep women in their place.


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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 6:18:44 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

It's easy to say all life has value. I certainly agree with that lovely sentiment. The hard facts are that we live on an over populated and thus highly stressed planet called Earth. Sure, in an ideal world we would all live together in harmony and work to feed each other and not pollute our planet into destruction. Look around you, this is not what's happening.



Agreed. The sad reality is that the statistics about unwanted children are deeply depressing. As a group, they are at higher risk for extreme poverty, malnourishment, physical and sexual abuse, homicide etc., etc., etc. If mothers during pregnancy used drugs/alcohol without restraint, the children are often quite diminished psychologically and mentally even when born. I wonder at people who feel it is necessary to save a fetus, but then relegate that child to an existence that borders on torturous. If all life is so valuable why do conservatives insist on protecting the fetus, but do not raise a finger to support assistance to the lives we already have on the planet.

Is it better to be aborted or born a crack baby to a mother who due to their own personal issues, are incapable of providing a safe and healthy environment for a child? For those who believe in the eternity of soul - would it not be better for the soul of the aborted fetus to simply come back as a baby in a healthier, safer environment?

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 6:20:56 AM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

So I wasnt sure if I wanted to post this in P&R or here - but I chose here, cause P&R gives me a headache.

I am throwing out a hypothetical set-up to see what women would do if this ever came into Federal law.

As we all know, if the R's are elected into office, Mitt & Ryan would press to have all abortion made illegal in the United States, including cases where the woman was raped.

So - if this ever came to be, and you (a woman) were raped by a stranger, became pregnant, what would you do?

- would you feel blessed because "God" gave you the chance to give life?
- would you cherish your baby?
- would you be set up to bring a child into the world?
- would you have the money to bring a child into the world?
- would you pay to have the child and give it up for adoption?
- would you go on welfare to have the child and give it up for adoption?
- would you leave the country to have an abortion elsewhere?
- would you try to hurt yourself or the baby so it dies?
- would you kill yourself?

Men - if this happened to your mother, sister, girlfriend, wife - how would you feel about the child?

General question - what if the child came out retarded? missing limbs? cerebral palsy - etc. and you dont know the genetics of the father - so you dont know what happened, the raped mother may of been so stressed out, that it actually harmed the fetus - what then? Who takes care of it? Who wants to take care of it?

Just some thoughts that have come to mind listening to the GOP going on about how all life is precious.


Not too much thinky needed here for me. She wouldn't want it; I would support her completely.


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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 6:34:10 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

In that kind of logic a rapist is doing God's will and seems even blessed by (who cares ...) in what he does ... is this for real or satire?


I'm not satire is the right word, maybe snark?

Read JanahX's other posts on this thread.

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 6:42:54 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
I'm going to ignore your political rhetoric and point out you did not answer the questions. So basically you're saying if a female gets raped, she only gets an abortion if she can afford it? If her baby is shown to have birth defects, same thing?
What about those babies with birth defects, who pays for them? I am guessing it's not you, at least, it's not your choice to pay.


Political rhetoric?!?!? I have a very hard time accepting abortion in the case where a baby may have birth defects. I do hold all life precious, but don't agree that conception is the starting point of life. And, I'm not sure how early birth defects can be detected (a quick scan showed some testing isn't done until late in the first trimester, but most of the testing procedures didn't specify when the tests are to be done).

According to your question, if a woman is raped or the fetus (not a baby, yet) is shown to likely have a birth defect, you think it is in part my responsibility to pay for her abortion?!? How the fuck is that right? Did I rape her? No. Why am I responsible for her abortion? I support PP offering abortive services, paid for out of private donations. I have no problem with that (well, provided they are done legally according to the law). Perhaps the rapist might have some responsibility for that? And, if we're talking about consensual intercourse that results in a fetus likely to have birth defects, an abortion is an option open to the mother and/or father, but should be paid for by the mother and/or father.

quote:

I feel for you, my friend. One day you will need compassion, but you will be so filled with mistrust, you will not be able to reach out for that which you need.
You take care now.


So filled with mistrust?!? Huh?!?!? If anything, I'm too trustful. That's a trait I have learned to live with, though.

I would like to know what part of my statements you responded to that were ideological rhetoric, and which parts brought you to the conclusion that I am filled with mistrust. And, I'm serious on that. If you want to put that here, fine. If you want to go private on that, that's fine, too. I'm a big man (too big!). I can take it.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 6:55:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
It does bother me that some women chose to use abortion as a form of birth control. I've even known women who don't use any other form. I think that's wrong, careless and feeds into the arguments of the right wing. These women say they just can't be bothered to take a pill every day, or get a shot. And they use the excuse that no form of birth control is 100% effective as their justification.


That is a bad thing to do. Even though there are after-effects, physically and mentally, to getting an abortion, those who choose abortion as their sole means of pregnancy prevention are beyond ridiculous.
quote:


Which brings me to another troubling issue about abortion--the Hyde amendment, which says that no federal funds can be used for abortion except in the instance of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother. Medicaid will pay for birth control of all kinds. But if that birth control fails, a person of low income means has no choice but to have the child unless they can scrap together the funds for an abortion in many states, though admittedly some states will use state funds to pay for abortions. Congress recently voted to ban D.C. from using city funds to pay for abortions. So if a person is on welfare, doesn't want a child, but gets pregnant anyway, that child probably goes on welfare. And it costs thousands more to raise a child for even a few years on welfare (with all the subsidies of WIC, low income housing, child care subsidies so that the parents can work, etc.) than it does to pay for an abortion. Plus the child has problems, from not being wanted--there is a lack of parental love in the household.


Okay, and here we have a divergence of agreement. If a person can not endure the consequences of an action, why is he or she participating in an action that can result in the consequence? If you know that fucking can result in pregnancy, why would you continue to fuck if you have no means by which to support or abort? Choices have consequences. A woman's choice to engage in a risky behavior does not put the responsibility for others to pay for the consequences of her behavior. I'm not saying she is the only one responsible for this. The guy has a responsibility to wrap his Whopper and to keep it in his pants if he is not capable of dealing with the consequences. This is just enabling the risky behavior. It's akin (not the same as, but similar) to bailing out the Wall Street risk takers instead of letting them face the consequences of their risky behaviors.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 7:05:30 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

In that kind of logic a rapist is doing God's will and seems even blessed by (who cares ...) in what he does ... is this for real or satire?


Alas, it's not even good satire. My generation fought the good fight as well. Unfortunately, the US (I would guesstimate) is twice the size of Europe combined, and is filled with right wing people who want to bring down everything we fought for. They (mostly) do this under the guise of "we don't want to pay for it" or some form of religious fervor, or both.

A long held sociological standard of any society is how well it takes care of it's disadvantaged: it's old, it's children, it's disabled. Guess how the US fairs?



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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 9:04:41 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Did I rape her? No. Why am I responsible for her abortion?


Did I crash a plane into the WTC? No. Why am I responsible for paying for the cluster fucks in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Because we don't get to pick and chose how our tax dollars are spent.

In another thread, I put the cost of the 133 abortions paid for by Medicaid vs Iraq and Afghanistan expenditures for I believe 2007 but don't have time to dig that up.

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 2:57:19 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
quote:

Did I rape her? No. Why am I responsible for her abortion?

Did I crash a plane into the WTC? No. Why am I responsible for paying for the cluster fucks in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Because we don't get to pick and chose how our tax dollars are spent.
In another thread, I put the cost of the 133 abortions paid for by Medicaid vs Iraq and Afghanistan expenditures for I believe 2007 but don't have time to dig that up.


Yeah, because abortions are on point regarding National Security.

We went into Afghanistan as a response to attack on our soil. The US is being protected by our military. That is why we have to pay for the war(s).

Comparing the two wars Bush started to abortion is ridiculous, and worthy of humiliation, IMO.

Why should I pay for the Department of Education? Since it's inception, it hasn't done anything but suck up buckets of money without positive results.
Why should I contribute to Foreign Aid, some of the countries we are sending aid to don't even like us? Of, like Haiti, the aid goes to line the ruler's pockets instead of actually aiding the country.

Why should I have paid for the attacks in Libya when there was no threat to US security? Why are we tracking down that crack pot in Nigeria (or wherever it was in Africa) when there is no threat to US security? At least my questions are all pretty much on point with your Afghanistan/Iraq War statement.

Your statement, however, has nothing to do with my question on taxpayers funding abortion.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 3:14:06 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

we don't get to pick and chose how our tax dollars are spent.


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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 3:17:18 PM   
kalikshama


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GOP: Money Is Fungible For Planned Parenthood, But Not Faith-Based Organizations

Apr 14, 2011

Last week, House Republicans held up the budget and threatened a government shutdown over federal funding for Planned Parenthood. Thankfully a deal was reached that restored funding for this critical safety net provider, but the bargain included an agreement that the Senate hold an independent vote — scheduled for this afternoon — on whether to defund the organization.

Conservatives claim that they object to funding Planned Parenthood because it provides abortion services, even though they know that Planned Parenthood is barred from spending any federal money on abortion by a provision known as the Hyde Amendment, as well as numerous other laws. The truth is that they want to cut off funding for family planning services because they oppose contraception as much as they do abortion.

Nevertheless, they assert that funding should be cut because taxpayers are “subsidizing” abortion. Their argument is that money is “fungible,” meaning that every dollar the government gives Planned Parenthood for family planning services, STI and HIV prevention and treatment, and cancer screening “frees up” money for it to spend on abortion care. According to them, mechanisms to segregate public from private funds are mere “accounting gimmicks” and “funding schemes.”

This is not the first time they’ve tried to play the fungibility card. Some may recall that former Rep. Bart Stupak (D-MI) made the exact same argument when he tried to prevent private insurance companies receiving premium subsidies from offering coverage of abortion in their health plans during the health reform debate. And more recently, Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ) has tried to expand the Hyde Amendment policy well beyond its current scope, including by reaching into the tax code to restrict abortion access for the first time ever.

However, when it comes to their pet projects, like granting government money to faith-based organizations, they suddenly have every confidence in a recipient’s ability to keep pots of money separate and only use government money for approved uses. For instance, there was no parallel attempt (nor should there have been) during health reform to prevent Catholic-affiliated hospitals and health plans from receiving money under the Affordable Care Act on the theory that it would subsidize their religious activities and violate the Establishment Clause. Ironically, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops was one of the leading proponents of the fungibility argument in the abortion context.

And just last week, the conservative majority of the Supreme Court found that while a direct grant to religious schools would give taxpayers the right to sue for a violation of the Establishment Clause, an Arizona law that gave citizens dollar-for-dollar tax credits for donating to those same schools did not violate taxpayer rights. According to the Court, dissenters’ rights are violated when their money is “extracted and spent” by the government. But the charitable contributions yielding the tax credits at issue passed “directly from taxpayers to private organizations” and resulted from the “decisions of private taxpayers regarding their own funds.” Thus, the dissenters’ injury could not be traced to the government.

As I pointed out last year during the debate over the Stupak Amendment:

Our society recognizes the distinction between direct and indirect funding all the time. Indeed, if we did not, our government probably could not function. Religious organizations receive tax money to provide direct social services but are strictly prohibited from using that money for sectarian purposes. Nonprofit organizations obtain government grants that can be used for charitable activities but not for electioneering….No transaction in our modern society is completely free of government involvement.

Ultimately, the debate over direct and indirect funding is a distraction. People on both sides of the ideological divide recognize accounting firewalls when they approve of underlying policies and object when they do not.

Don’t believe for a second that this fight is about government funding of abortion, because it’s not. In reality, social conservatives are attacking Planned Parenthood funding because they oppose contraception but don’t want to admit it. So they use fungibility arguments to turn it into an abortion debate. But as soon as you look at their position on fungibility in other contexts, you can see that it’s all smoke and mirrors.


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RE: Rape-babies - 9/13/2012 3:24:04 PM   
JanahX


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quote:

Okay, and here we have a divergence of agreement. If a person can not endure the consequences of an action, why is he or she participating in an action that can result in the consequence? If you know that fucking can result in pregnancy, why would you continue to fuck if you have no means by which to support or abort? Choices have consequences. A woman's choice to engage in a risky behavior does not put the responsibility for others to pay for the consequences of her behavior. I'm not saying she is the only one responsible for this. The guy has a responsibility to wrap his Whopper and to keep it in his pants if he is not capable of dealing with the consequences. This is just enabling the risky behavior. It's akin (not the same as, but similar) to bailing out the Wall Street risk takers instead of letting them face the consequences of their risky behaviors.

_____________________________


Thats not what this thread is about - this thread is about women that do not choose to participate. It is about women that are physically FORCED to participate in a physical act that can lead to conception.

And as far as youre tax dollars not paying for an abortion - well theyll be used anyways, to rear and raise the child through welfare and what other means, public housing, food stamps, medicaid, WIC, food programs at public schools, free limited cell phones, Im sure the list goes on and on -

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