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RE: Rape-babies - 9/15/2012 11:30:19 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitkat105

I certainly wouldn't advocate late term abortions, but I also like to think that with the western world's access to healthcare, you should know of the potential need or want to abort long before that.

Afterall, this isn't China where female fetuses are routinely aborted at 6-8 months gestation.


Thats China. Yet our government refuses to ban this, though I dont believe its practiced here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/us/politics/house-rejects-bill-to-ban-sex-selective-abortions.html

Not all prenatal testing can be performed before the 22 - 24 week cut off point. Finances and age play a huge part in this.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Rape-babies - 9/16/2012 4:48:50 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

So, just the right to not have it's life extinguished other than in cases where the mother's life could be lost. Well, I'm not sure I totally agree with a developing fetus getting only that right, but I can accept the terms, other than if the parents agree that the mother's life would be sacrificed for the child. IF the mother doesn't accept that, her wish rules. In cases where there is no agreement, the mother's choice would be the one acted on.

Thats how it is now. I dont know a single Doctor who would perform an abortion on any woman who says no.


I was merely making more explicit, my belief on "late term" abortions that bring into question the life of the mother. When you have to choose between the mother or the child, that's up to the parents. If they disagree, the tie-breaker falls to the mother.

quote:

quote:

Know what those two words have in common? Subjectivity. That's not exactly something we have defined, then. And, that was my point. Is medical science going to get to the point where 50%+ survive birth at 12 weeks? Is there going to be a hue and cry regarding the advances of medical science waging "war on women?"

Not until medicine can find a way to mature the fetal lungs at 12 weeks. Considering parts of the lungs arent even started by 12 weeks, that isnt likely.


I don't doubt that for our lifetimes, but who's to say? Science can clone animals. Was that possible 100 years ago? My college anatomy textbook (from 1992) wasn't able to define an anatomical structure my surgeon operated on during my knee arthroscopy 12 years later. The dawn of the arthroscopic surgeries brought with it several new terms that weren't in use just years before.

In the long term, I'm not going to put anything past medical science.
quote:


So, having said all that... the last 12 years has seen very little progress in the moving of viability to an earlier age.
But, I do have to ask you.... who takes precedence, mother or infant for a late term abortion?


If the choice is between the life of the mother or the life of the child, I've already addressed that above. If there are no other constraining factors, a late term abortion should not be done.

quote:


If it is known that bringing an infant to full term means a life of torment, what happens then?


Who gets to define that torment? Many special ed. teachers absolutely love their students, limits and all. I have a friend who can't wait for the next Paralympics so he can experience the joys of working with the athletes. Some people actually find benefit and fulfillment through their "life of torment," as you put it. It has even happened for people who did not have that attitude prior to the birth of their special needs child.

Bringing a child into the world, special needs or not, should not be taken as a light responsibility. A special needs life is still a life. After our "defined" viability age of development, barring other constraints, aborting simply because a fetus won't be perfect, should be illegal.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Rape-babies - 9/16/2012 5:20:22 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Who gets to define that torment? Many special ed. teachers absolutely love their students, limits and all. I have a friend who can't wait for the next Paralympics so he can experience the joys of working with the athletes. Some people actually find benefit and fulfillment through their "life of torment," as you put it. It has even happened for people who did not have that attitude prior to the birth of their special needs child.


I would think the medical community would define that torment. We arent speaking of someone with a deformed limb or special needs.

quote:

Bringing a child into the world, special needs or not, should not be taken as a light responsibility. A special needs life is still a life. After our "defined" viability age of development, barring other constraints, aborting simply because a fetus won't be perfect, should be illegal.


Again, Im not speaking about special needs. I am referring to life threatening disorders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoplastic_left_heart_syndrome

Is but one of many.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 5:33:45 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Who gets to define that torment? Many special ed. teachers absolutely love their students, limits and all. I have a friend who can't wait for the next Paralympics so he can experience the joys of working with the athletes. Some people actually find benefit and fulfillment through their "life of torment," as you put it. It has even happened for people who did not have that attitude prior to the birth of their special needs child.

I would think the medical community would define that torment. We arent speaking of someone with a deformed limb or special needs.
Again, Im not speaking about special needs. I am referring to life threatening disorders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoplastic_left_heart_syndrome
Is but one of many.


Really? First of all, a child born with a deformed heart would still be considered "special needs." I mean, does this child have needs that are different compared to "normal" children? Yes. Yes that child does.

Secondly, you're going to rely on the medical community to decide what is torment for a person, rather than the person?

Shall we have the medical community also write the list of acceptable or unacceptable sexual activities? I mean, whipping a person has to be abuse, right?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 6:28:04 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I prefer the medical community over some half baked notion by a bible thumper. That was but one example of many.

You can sit there are try and judge because you are clueless as to the actual ramifications some of these disorders have. Try reading what is provided. Oh hell, who am I kidding. You have no clue what any of this means.

quote:

Secondly, you're going to rely on the medical community to decide what is torment for a person, rather than the person?


Who would know better what lies in the future for someone with these disorders... you?

quote:

Shall we have the medical community also write the list of acceptable or unacceptable sexual activities? I mean, whipping a person has to be abuse, right?


My Doctor gets a kick out of my bruises.. when he knows why they are there. The same bruises on a teenager should be reported for abuse, no?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/17/2012 6:29:43 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 11:13:46 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I prefer the medical community over some half baked notion by a bible thumper. That was but one example of many.
You can sit there are try and judge because you are clueless as to the actual ramifications some of these disorders have. Try reading what is provided. Oh hell, who am I kidding. You have no clue what any of this means.


I know more about it than you give me credit, tazzy.

quote:

quote:

Secondly, you're going to rely on the medical community to decide what is torment for a person, rather than the person?

Who would know better what lies in the future for someone with these disorders... you?


To answer your question: the medical community knows better what lies ahead for these patients. However, who would know better what I consider torment? I do believe that would be me. Who would know better what a person considers torment? That person. The medical community can provide the information as to what may be in the future, and what the odds are among those results, but it is up to that person to make the decision, not the medical community. Something tells me the medical community was dead wrong with Oscar Pistorius.


quote:

Shall we have the medical community also write the list of acceptable or unacceptable sexual activities? I mean, whipping a person has to be abuse, right?

My Doctor gets a kick out of my bruises.. when he knows why they are there. The same bruises on a teenager should be reported for abuse, no?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 2:58:01 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

If they disagree, the tie-breaker falls to the mother.


That's pretty much how I've worked it out, ethically-speaking, on the question of a woman aborting or carrying to term in general. Actually, I've compared it to the rules governing flying (in the UK, at least). The woman is the pilot, and nobody's decision trumps that of the pilot - not the Control Tower, nor (assuming we're talking of a military aircraft) even a higher-ranking RAF man who happens to be in the plane at the time. The father can give his input, the rest of society might do likewise - but the final decision is the pregnant woman's.

That's how I'd insist upon it, too, if I happened to wake up one morning as a pregnant woman, myself. (Sounds silly, but it's a useful thought experiment, following John Rawls and his 'veil of ignorance' in 'A Theory of Justice'.)

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 3:28:50 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

To answer your question: the medical community knows better what lies ahead for these patients. However, who would know better what I consider torment? I do believe that would be me. Who would know better what a person considers torment? That person. The medical community can provide the information as to what may be in the future, and what the odds are among those results, but it is up to that person to make the decision, not the medical community. Something tells me the medical community was dead wrong with Oscar Pistorius.


Your opinion of what is torment isnt relevant.

Since a fetus has no concept of anything beyond uterine life, asking them is out of the question.

Guess who that decision falls upon.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 3:31:48 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Since a fetus has no concept of anything beyond uterine life, asking them is out of the question.



Does a foetus have a concept of anything, at all?


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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 8:15:07 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Your opinion of what is torment isnt relevant.
Since a fetus has no concept of anything beyond uterine life, asking them is out of the question.
Guess who that decision falls upon.


The parent(s). No guessing needed.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Rape-babies - 9/17/2012 8:33:20 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Your opinion of what is torment isnt relevant.
Since a fetus has no concept of anything beyond uterine life, asking them is out of the question.
Guess who that decision falls upon.


The parent(s). No guessing needed.


And who is best left to inform the parents of the prospective life of the child the woman is carrying based upon various testing results?

The medical community.

Seems like a no brainer all the way around.

Of course its her decision to make. Its the Doctors to inform her of the consequences.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 4:47:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And who is best left to inform the parents of the prospective life of the child the woman is carrying based upon various testing results?
The medical community.
Seems like a no brainer all the way around.
Of course its her decision to make. Its the Doctors to inform her of the consequences.


Which is exactly what I said. Thanks for agreeing with me.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 7:21:54 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Then why argue with me that the medical community is far better able to determine the amount of torment someone will go through? Or that they are better capable than you, or some bible thumper, of what may happen?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 8:00:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

- would you leave the country to have an abortion elsewhere?


Fortunately I will never have to make this dreadful decision because I don't live in the USA. If I did live there, and was faced with appalling set of options listed in the OP, this is the option I would choose.

It wouldn't be a difficult decision for me to make. The most difficult part of the decision for me would be whether I bought a one way or return ticket. I doubt that I could bring myself to feel any enduring loyalty to a State that forced such barbaric choices on women.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/18/2012 8:03:03 AM >

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RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 3:19:23 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Then why argue with me that the medical community is far better able to determine the amount of torment someone will go through? Or that they are better capable than you, or some bible thumper, of what may happen?


I didn't say they were better able to determine the amount of torment someone will go through. Torment is subjective, and what one person calls torment isn't necessarily torment for someone else. That was what I was arguing. The Medical Community doesn't know what you will call torment compared to what I will call torment. Some people have an incredible ability to put up with difficulties. Do we set the definition of "torment" based on them? Or, do we set the definition of "torment" based on those who have no ability to deal with any difficulties.

If a person is going to bear a Down's Syndrome child, who gets to make the call on abortion or not? The Medical Community? Does the Medical Community get to decide that raising a Down's Syndrome child is too much torment? Or, is the Medical Community allowed to order an abortion for a person who is going to bear a Down's Syndrome baby because the amount of torment the child is going to go through due to Down's Syndrome?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 4:51:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

If a person is going to bear a Down's Syndrome child, who gets to make the call on abortion or not? The Medical Community? Does the Medical Community get to decide that raising a Down's Syndrome child is too much torment? Or, is the Medical Community allowed to order an abortion for a person who is going to bear a Down's Syndrome baby because the amount of torment the child is going to go through due to Down's Syndrome?


You really cant follow a thread can you.

Having already stated the MOTHER choses, the rest should have been obvious to anyone not always predisposed to looking for an argument.

No one, especially me, stated anywhere that the medical community would ever make the decision of if.

How many mother's would know the extent of treatment for a particular disease unless they had a child who already had the same disease?

In that, the medical community is very much capable at defining the extent of torment an individual may expect.

Only someone with his hand caught in the cookie jar of attempting to backpedal beneath the surface would attempt to defend differently.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 5:25:00 PM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

So I wasnt sure if I wanted to post this in P&R or here - but I chose here, cause P&R gives me a headache.

I am throwing out a hypothetical set-up to see what women would do if this ever came into Federal law.

As we all know, if the R's are elected into office, Mitt & Ryan would press to have all abortion made illegal in the United States, including cases where the woman was raped.

So - if this ever came to be, and you (a woman) were raped by a stranger, became pregnant, what would you do?

- would you feel blessed because "God" gave you the chance to give life?
- would you cherish your baby?
- would you be set up to bring a child into the world?
- would you have the money to bring a child into the world?
- would you pay to have the child and give it up for adoption?
- would you go on welfare to have the child and give it up for adoption?
- would you leave the country to have an abortion elsewhere?
- would you try to hurt yourself or the baby so it dies?
- would you kill yourself?

Men - if this happened to your mother, sister, girlfriend, wife - how would you feel about the child?

General question - what if the child came out retarded? missing limbs? cerebral palsy - etc. and you dont know the genetics of the father - so you dont know what happened, the raped mother may of been so stressed out, that it actually harmed the fetus - what then? Who takes care of it? Who wants to take care of it?

Just some thoughts that have come to mind listening to the GOP going on about how all life is precious.



I don't know if I'll ever be able to answer your questions one way or another with clear conscience. In the case of rape I am so torn on this, I think the morning after pill is acceptable. My wife and I were talking about this just two days ago. My problem is, when does life really begin? I am a warrior at heart and I feel I was gifted what I was, in no small part, in order to protect the innocent. At what point would the unborn truly become my fellow man/woman. I know the Legal Speak, but my conscience seems torn.

This subject actually leaves me sick inside when I ponder it deeply, I don’t want girls dying in backroom abortion clinics and they would exist if it were illegal. I don’t want to infringe upon another humans right to be and do as they should.

I can and will read all these responses (well the serious ones) in this thread and even then I assure I’ll be torn. I don’t know if I am capable of leading on this subject. I mean I go as far as consider a fathers point of view on this subject, shouldn’t he have some say. It is his child as well. I know were talking about rape here and that’s why I bring it up, I’ve even pondered on the point if a father were to have the legal right to stop an abortion, how longer before some demented power mad rapists was fighting this out in court in order to further his torment over the woman he raped.

Now you can see why this subject matter leaves me sick to consider. Maybe I’m just over analyzing things. I’m a first born that was conceived out of wedlock, what if it keeps getting easier and easier to dismiss the notion of a life, what if my mother had chosen death.

I don’t know, and that’s where I stand at this point. I’m almost always certain, but not here……. but not here.

Sorry I didn’t add anything constructive. But I appreciate the place to think out loud.


< Message edited by xBullx -- 9/18/2012 5:28:01 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to JanahX)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 6:03:29 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

If a person is going to bear a Down's Syndrome child, who gets to make the call on abortion or not? The Medical Community? Does the Medical Community get to decide that raising a Down's Syndrome child is too much torment? Or, is the Medical Community allowed to order an abortion for a person who is going to bear a Down's Syndrome baby because the amount of torment the child is going to go through due to Down's Syndrome?

You really cant follow a thread can you.
Having already stated the MOTHER choses, the rest should have been obvious to anyone not always predisposed to looking for an argument.
No one, especially me, stated anywhere that the medical community would ever make the decision of if.
How many mother's would know the extent of treatment for a particular disease unless they had a child who already had the same disease?
In that, the medical community is very much capable at defining the extent of torment an individual may expect.
Only someone with his hand caught in the cookie jar of attempting to backpedal beneath the surface would attempt to defend differently.


What kind of cookie crumbs do you have on your hands?

I stated the parents choose. Period. Your diversion of the Medical Community knowing better about "torment" was ridiculous, and spurious if you were in agreement with me all along. The Medical Community has no say in it, but can be there as a resource. But, they can not define the "torment" that is going to happen. They can give out all the information, the odds of this or that, and what to expect, but, at no time, can they say it will be "torment." You are applying that label to a life that isn't yours. If it were to happen to you, or if that is your life, you can call it torment for you, but you can't say it's going to be torment for everyone else.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 6:26:10 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You really cant follow a thread can you.
Having already stated the MOTHER choses, the rest should have been obvious to anyone not always predisposed to looking for an argument.
Only someone with his hand caught in the cookie jar of attempting to backpedal beneath the surface would attempt to defend differently.


And, your first comment that had anything to do with me was in response to ChatteParfaitt. At no point in time were any of my posts addressing anything you stated. My posts to that point had been to DNAHelicase, and we were having a perfectly civil conversation. And, we agreed on most stuff, even.

My next two posts were to ChatteParfaitt and erieangel, respectively. and then one to kalikshama.

your next one was to Titaniya. and then BouncyBoo.

I responded right after that to BouncyBoo, and then made my first response to one of your posts (#70, look it up). I stated, with a reference to the Fonz, that I agreed with what you had posted. Then you and BouncyBoo made a few more posts and DNAHeliacase and I resumed our discussion. Then, you jumped in with a question about the mother or the baby in a late-term abortion and then the "torment" question.

It was you that came in looking for an argument, not me. My first response to one of your posts was to say I agreed with your post. Now, please tell me how that's me looking for an argument.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Rape-babies - 9/18/2012 7:01:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I dont look for arguments... I look for discussions.

Discussions are meant to bring in fresh ideas from different perspectives.


Forgive me for believing you were capable of such.


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/18/2012 7:02:02 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 100
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