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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/5/2012 10:02:18 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Why even pay attention to the witness statements.

Then don't. What is left now? Zimmerman who has been mauled and Martin who is dead. You tell me who mauled Zimmerman. If you say that Martin mauled Zimmerman, then tell me whether he mauled Zimmerman before he was dead or after he was dead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
I don't think there's anyone who can tell us why George Zimmerman tried to unlawfully detain Trayvon Martin

Please establish 1. That Zimmerman tried to detain Martin, and 2. If so, that he did so unlawfully.

If Zimmerman didn't try to detain Martin, what was Martin's MOTIVATION for as you cast it, 'mauling' Zimmerman?

Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin was tested for the presence of drugs, and didn't have any in his system to affect his behaviour, so we have to assume that Trayvon Martin's actions were logical and reasonable -- absent any clear evidence to the contrary.

So, you have evidence to support your hypothesis that Trayvon Martin's actions weren't logical and reasonable given the circumstances?

He was 17 so we have to assume his actions were illogical.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 3:19:56 AM

farglebargle

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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

He was 17 so we have to assume his actions were illogical.

Given that the age of adult responsibilities in my religion is THIRTEEN, I don't agree with your assertion.

What actions of Trayvon Martin were illogical? Going to the convenience store to pick up candy at halftime, or being worried about his safety due to the actions of the strange guy following him?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 4:57:36 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Given that the age of adult responsibilities in my religion is THIRTEEN

So you lot think that a kid is mature when he can prod a female with his dick, eh? One does not have to be a supergenius to disagree with that position.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What actions of Trayvon Martin were illogical? Going to the convenience store to pick up candy at halftime, or being worried about his safety due to the actions of the strange guy following him?

Didn't we already establish that it did not happen at halftime? (Posts 601 and 639.)

And did not we agree to drop all witness statements? Then whatever Martin was thinking is pure speculation.

And you still have not answered my question(s).

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 5:46:55 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

But I do gather that you agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman?

Nope

I don't agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, either. Trayvon didn't see Zimmerman on his way home from the convenience store and decided he was suspicious looking enough to follow him. Zimmerman did that. That very act of being followed by a stranger put Trayvon on the defense. This was exampled by him hiding on Zimmerman. The very act of Trayvon hiding shows he was not (at first) confrontational. But, when you back anyone into a situation they see no way out of, they often tend to defend themself in the best way they can. Seventeen year old Trayvon obviously made the decision that the best defense for him was to physically protect himself.

All the reasoning in the world doesn't add up to Trayvon being an attacker. He was a teenager who decided he wanted some candy and something to drink. He has a right to get his ass up and go to the store to get that. He didn't rob the store. He didn't pick any trouble with anyone on the way home. He didn't even pick trouble with GZ on the way home. It was just GZ, who decided Trayvon was a danger in his own delusional mind. And the 911 call that GZ made displays his irrationality in jumping to conclusions, without questioning Trayvon.

Many things could have happened differently that night....starting with Zimmerman not listening to the "advice" of the 911 dispatcher who told him 911 did not need him to follow.

Trayvon maybe didn't make the right adult decision to keep himself safe. But Trayvon wasn't an adult. Zimmerman didn't make the right adult decisions either to keep him, and citizens on his 'so called" patrol safe, either. Zimmerman is an adult. That night he was an armed adult making very poor and assuming decisions.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 6:04:42 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I don't agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, either.

Then how do you explain the trauma's to Zimmerman's head? Were those or were those not done by Martin?

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 6:13:17 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

The very act of Trayvon hiding shows he was not (at first) confrontational.

Same with calling the authorities in regards to someone he thought was suspicious. George wasn't being confrontational. There's no proof George was being confrontational, or had any intent to meet, catch up to, confront, attack, detain, or anything Martin. It's just not there.

quote:

All the reasoning in the world doesn't add up to Trayvon being an attacker.

One doesn't always need a reason to be an attacker. I posted a video earlier of a young kid leaving a bus and just sucker punching the elderly driver for no reason. Incidents like that are happening more frequently these days.

quote:

Many things could have happened differently that night....starting with Zimmerman not listening to the "advice" of the 911 dispatcher who told him 911 did not need him to follow.

Evidence is very strong that George did, in fact, not follow Trayvon after being advised not to. The location of start of the fight is right in the same area where he was advised to not follow, within 10-15 seconds of where the the advice was given. There was no chase.

quote:

Trayvon maybe didn't make the right adult decision to keep himself safe. But Trayvon wasn't an adult. Zimmerman didn't make the right adult decisions either to keep him, and citizens on his 'so called" patrol safe, either. Zimmerman is an adult. That night he was an armed adult making very poor and assuming decisions.

All the evidence points to George doing nothing more than trying to assist Police with someone he thought was suspicious, and getting attacked for it until he shot in self defense.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 6:20:27 AM

mons

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Raiikun

I see you had thought I was personly attacking you, this is not true!

I seek to understand why you think the way you do, it is a normal process when someone makes a statement!
That needs answer!

So you feel everyone else is attacking you as well?

There are so many holes in Zimmerman statements I see swiss cheese!

I seen others become so angry at you, please do not make it as if I am victimizing only you on
this topic which is so very much in the minds of every mother and father who has a child or more then one child!

The police are Zimmerman's friend Raiikun, they drove him around and he then told about all of the "thngs they did"

so yes the police have something to coveup, it is indeed a mess Raiikun which, oh yes when is the trial?

I do not harass , pick on or go after a person whom post, I just wish to have things answer!

Put some "backbone" on what you say, so as to make me understand you more! Please do not take all I say as an attack it is
not meant or has been that ideal!!!!!!!!

Tske care

Mons

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 6:29:47 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

One doesn't always need a reason to be an attacker. I posted a video earlier of a young kid leaving a bus and just sucker punching the elderly driver for no reason. Incidents like that are happening more frequently these days.

Not a child....

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=8822772

Not a child....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkjWqm-Ewh4

Definitely not a child...

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-07-17/news/32717905_1_attacks-on-transit-workers-bus-driver-bx10

Many people attack for no reason. FEAR is a great reason to attack.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 7:25:00 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I don't agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, either.

Then how do you explain the trauma's to Zimmerman's head? Were those or were those not done by Martin?

Self defense. If you set out to seek justice on someone who's caused no injustice, and that person does not know what the person following him was going to do with him, I would call it self defense. I thought my post explained it. Or do you just like making people repeat themself in different words?

Just because Trayvon wasn't packing a gun to defend himself, doesn't mean there are other ways to defend yourself. But some people don't know how to defend themself so let a gun defend them. That is not Trayvon's fault. His fault...his fate....was crossing paths with a paranoid GZ who assumed Trayvon was going to start trouble, when that thought was only in George's mind.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 7:33:14 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

The very act of Trayvon hiding shows he was not (at first) confrontational.

Same with calling the authorities in regards to someone he thought was suspicious. George wasn't being confrontational. There's no proof George was being confrontational, or had any intent to meet, catch up to, confront, attack, detain, or anything Martin. It's just not there.
That is assumption. If we could say he has no intent to meet, catch up with...or any of your other excuses, he would have waited for police to arrive.

quote:

All the reasoning in the world doesn't add up to Trayvon being an attacker.

One doesn't always need a reason to be an attacker. I posted a video earlier of a young kid leaving a bus and just sucker punching the elderly driver for no reason. Incidents like that are happening more frequently these days. Yet, that video was not a video of the typical actions of Trayvon, so has no bearing on what Trayvon did

quote:

Many things could have happened differently that night....starting with Zimmerman not listening to the "advice" of the 911 dispatcher who told him 911 did not need him to follow.

Evidence is very strong that George did, in fact, not follow Trayvon after being advised not to. The location of start of the fight is right in the same area where he was advised to not follow, within 10-15 seconds of where the the advice was given. There was no chase. I must disagree with you as I'm sure, this video will be played in court to back up George's vigilante stance. Not only was he told they did not need him to follow Trayvon because police were on their way...we heard George continue to blather on, we heard his car door slam, we heard him breathing harder as he trundled his weighty body around the complex....still looking

quote:

Trayvon maybe didn't make the right adult decision to keep himself safe. But Trayvon wasn't an adult. Zimmerman didn't make the right adult decisions either to keep him, and citizens on his 'so called" patrol safe, either. Zimmerman is an adult. That night he was an armed adult making very poor and assuming decisions.

All the evidence points to George doing nothing more than trying to assist Police with someone he thought was suspicious, and getting attacked for it until he shot in self defense.Again, after being told his help was NOT needed.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 7:37:32 AM

farglebargle

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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I don't agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, either.

Then how do you explain the trauma's to Zimmerman's head? Were those or were those not done by Martin?

Self defense. When someone tries to hold you at gunpoint against your will, your best option is to immediately try to escape, or absent that to engage them directly as soon as possible. Letting them take their time to enjoy your fear before they murder you never helps.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 7:40:33 AM

DomYngBlk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I don't agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, either.

Then how do you explain the trauma's to Zimmerman's head? Were those or were those not done by Martin?

Why do people want to keep putting that lie out there. No trauma to his head. Man, if I beat your head against the ground your ass would be in the hospital. You want to let the white boy go free......Its fine. Just be fucking honest about it.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:11:14 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

You want to let the white boy go free......Its fine. Just be fucking honest about it.

"What is a White Hispanic anyways? There's nothing white about me."

- George Zimmerman, spoken in Spanish to his brother while in jail.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:19:55 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

If we could say he has no intent to meet, catch up with...or any of your other excuses, he would have waited for police to arrive.

This is an assumption. The fact is, his getting out of the vehicle was in direct response to dispatch asking where the kid was running. It wasn't the smartest thing to get out of the vehicle, but I don't see any way he could have possibly guessed at that point that a kid running away would end up turning around to confront him.

quote:

Yet, that video was not a video of the typical actions of Trayvon, so has no bearing on what Trayvon did

Which obviously isn't the point. The video only serves to show that it's not unheard of for youngsters to attack someone without provocation. Ask the 22 year old who was attacked by a 13 year old (who started off by bragging to his friend that he was going to do it.) Except...well you can't ask the 22 year old, he died from the encounter.

It's just fallacious to claim that Trayvon couldn't have attacked George because it was illogical to do so.

quote:

Many things could have happened differently that night....starting with Zimmerman not listening to the "advice" of the 911 dispatcher who told him 911 did not need him to follow.

quote:

Not only was he told they did not need him to follow Trayvon because police were on their way...we heard George continue to blather on, we heard his car door slam, we heard him breathing harder as he trundled his weighty body around the complex....still looking

You are aware that the car door shutting was before being advised not to follow right? (And you can tell he wasn't hurrying at any point on the NEN call btw. He was wearing boots; and there's no sound of boots hitting the ground (which there would have been if the obese guy was running).

Fact is though. George reaches the T intersection. No sign of Trayvon. A bit later, George gets his nose broken, at the T intersection, where a minute ago Trayvon wasn't there. This is all within direct line of sight from George's truck. The evidence is overwhelmingly on George's side as to not being the aggressor.

quote:

Again, after being told his help was NOT needed.

Absolutely false. He was never told his help was unneeded or unwanted. He was just advised not to follow, which evidence suggests he didn't.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:30:07 AM

farglebargle

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As a supposed member of a neighborhood watch organization, George Zimmerman would have received EXPLICIT TRAINING TO ***NEVER*** FOLLOW ANYONE. Once he called the police, his job ( if any ) was done, and everything past that was by his own choice, and AGAINST THE TRAINING HE WOULD HAVE RECEIVED.

There's a case for involuntary manslaughter here, but since it's an included lesser offense, the Jury can make that decision. Of course, from Zimmerman's point of view, since he killed a minor, he's looking at 25 to life either way.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:32:55 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I don't agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, either.

Then how do you explain the trauma's to Zimmerman's head? Were those or were those not done by Martin?

Self defense. When someone tries to hold you at gunpoint against your will, your best option is to immediately try to escape, or absent that to engage them directly as soon as possible. Letting them take their time to enjoy your fear before they murder you never helps.

Whoa!!! Where did that come from? Zimmerman tried to hold Martin at gunpoint? Guess I missed that comic book

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:36:17 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

This is an assumption. The fact is, his getting out of the vehicle was in direct response to dispatch asking where the kid was running. It wasn't the smartest thing to get out of the vehicle, but I don't see any way he could have possibly guessed at that point that a kid running away would end up turning around to confront him.

Anyone who is cornered will eventually turn and fight.

quote:

Which obviously isn't the point. The video only serves to show that it's not unheard of for youngsters to attack someone without provocation. Ask the 22 year old who was attacked by a 13 year old (who started off by bragging to his friend that he was going to do it.) Except...well you can't ask the 22 year old, he died from the encounter.

It's just fallacious to claim that Trayvon couldn't have attacked George because it was illogical to do so.

And I posted three who were adults who attacked others without reason. Want to try that again?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:46:16 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Anyone who is cornered will eventually turn and fight.

Kinda like George did after nearly a minute of being unable to escape Trayvon.

quote:

And I posted three who were adults who attacked others without reason. Want to try that again?

No need to try again, as that doesn't refute my point (and in fact, furthers it).

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:48:06 AM

Nosathro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Why even pay attention to the witness statements.

Then don't. What is left now? Zimmerman who has been mauled and Martin who is dead. You tell me who mauled Zimmerman. If you say that Martin mauled Zimmerman, then tell me whether he mauled Zimmerman before he was dead or after he was dead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
I don't think there's anyone who can tell us why George Zimmerman tried to unlawfully detain Trayvon Martin

Please establish 1. That Zimmerman tried to detain Martin, and 2. If so, that he did so unlawfully.

If Zimmerman didn't try to detain Martin, what was Martin's MOTIVATION for as you cast it, 'mauling' Zimmerman?

Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin was tested for the presence of drugs, and didn't have any in his system to affect his behaviour, so we have to assume that Trayvon Martin's actions were logical and reasonable -- absent any clear evidence to the contrary.

So, you have evidence to support your hypothesis that Trayvon Martin's actions weren't logical and reasonable given the circumstances?

He was 17 so we have to assume his actions were illogical.

I know many 17 year olds and younger that act more logically than adults. Your assumption is seriously flawed.

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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 10/6/2012 8:49:05 AM

Raiikun

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Funny thing btw, there's another case recently in Florida. A guy calls 911 to report a speeding vehicle. Dispatch asks for the license plate number, so the caller follows the vehicle to get it, arriving at their home. One of the guys gets out of the truck and attacks the caller for following them, so the caller shoots the guy in the head in self defense.

He was given immunity from prosecution.

Following is clearly not considered an act of aggression in Florida.

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