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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: igor2003

as ignoring the fact that the location where Martin was killed doesn't match Zimmerman's account of how things transpired

Yes, it does match up if you pay attention to the witnesses and evidence. George says the encounter started at the T, and there was southward movement as he ended up on the ground. W11/20 heard the encounter start at the T and move south past their house. W6 first heard the screams for help coming from a distance then move closer until they ended up in his back yard.

It's all consistent.

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as well as ignoring the witness that said he saw one man chasing another as they ran by.

That witness retracted her statement of seeing a chase. She later said she saw just one person and had taken her contacts out so wasn't sure of even that. She probably saw Martin going back to confront George.

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I'll take DeeDee's statement, body location, and witness account over Zimmerman's tall tale with made up B-movie dialog any time.

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Deedee's statment is inconsistent with the evidence and has many signs of being coached; and the body location and witnesses back up George's story. The more the witnesses saw and the more detail they can give, the more they match up with George.

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, and again gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being highly suspect.

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ORIGINAL: mons
When someone has you on hide they can not see me?

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

And another update, there is a hearing Oct. 19th in regards to subpoenas in regards to Trayvon's school records, and Trayvon/Deedee's twitter and facebook pages.

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ORIGINAL: igor2003
Z: I ... walked back through to my street, the street that loops around

Z: So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes.

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ORIGINAL: igor2003
And he said, “What the fucks your problem, Homie?”

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ORIGINAL: igor2003
And I got my cell phone out to call 911 this time,

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ORIGINAL: igor2003
And he goes, “No, now you have a problem,” and he punched me in the nose. At that point I fell down. Uh, I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face, and, uh, I started screaming for help, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t breath. Then he started taking my

Z: It was dark. I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. As soon as he punched me I fell backwards, um, into the grass, and then he grabbed m, uh, he was wailing on my head, and I s…then I started yelling, “Help!” When I started yelling for help he grabbed my head and he started hitting my head into the …I, I tried to sit up and yell for help, and then he grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk. Um, when he started doing that I slid into the grass to try and get out from under him and so that he would stop hitting my head into the sidewalk. And I’m still yelling for help…………

According to George's own words, he fell down immediately. He said it twice. This happened at the "T" in the sidewalk. This does NOT match the witnesses that said they heard the fight moving south. This does NOT match with where the body was eventually found.

Now, let's say the fight did move south, such as is supported by the witnesses and the body location. If George did fall down IMMEDIATELY after being punched, then he had to have been punched AFTER they moved, so this means that the story of Martin walking up to George, telling him he has a problem, then sucker punching him is a total lie along with the whole "Yo Homie, you got a problem?" nonsense.

So, did Zimmerman get sucker punched at the "T" like he claims, and which is totally unsubstanitated? Or did the arguement move south before Martin punched him, which indicates that Zimmerman was most likely trying to detain Martin before Martin punched him? One way or the other. You can't have it both ways. The evidence, AND the witnesses, AND DeeDee points to it being the second version, and again gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being highly suspect.

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ORIGINAL: igor2003

According to George's own words, he fell down immediately. He said it twice. This happened at the "T" in the sidewalk. This does NOT match the witnesses that said they heard the fight moving south. This does NOT match with where the body was eventually found.

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Now, let's say the fight did move south, such as is supported by the witnesses and the body location. If George did fall down IMMEDIATELY after being punched, then he had to have been punched AFTER they moved, so this means that the story of Martin walking up to George, telling him he has a problem, then sucker punching him is a total lie along with the whole "Yo Homie, you got a problem?" nonsense.

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ORIGINAL: erieangel

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, and again gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being highly suspect.

Really the only thing that gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being suspect is the fact that he has already lied in court, under oath.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I think Zimmerman's level of fear has to be called into question as well. Does it make sense to leave the safety of a vehicle to follow someone you are afraid of? I do believe I read somewhere that Z claimed he was fearful when sitting in his vehicle.

There's a difference there though. You can tell on the NEN call where Zimmerman is nervous at Trayvon circling the vehicle, after he tells the dispatcher he's approaching him and has a hand in his waistband. He talks over the dispatcher at that point to urge him to get an officer there.

At the point he is getting out of the vehicle though, Trayvon is running. I think any fear Zimmerman had prior to that was mitigated by not believing he would run into someone who had just run away.

But really, under Florida law, the only point where George's fear has legal relevance, is at the moment he pulled the trigger. Did George reasonably believe at that moment he needed to use deadly force to prevent serious bodily harm? If so, it was a justified homicide, no matter what level of fear George may have had when getting out of the vehicle.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: erieangel

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, and again gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being highly suspect.

Really the only thing that gives reason to hold anything Zimmerman says as being suspect is the fact that he has already lied in court, under oath.

Untrue.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Zimmerman didn't directly lie to the court.

Zimmerman lied to his attorney. And then his attorney lied to the court on his behalf.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle
All this is why Zimmerman was TRAINED TO NEVER PURSUE ANYONE. So, the question now becomes, "Why did George Zimmerman violate the training he received, KNOWING that he shouldn't follow that course of action?"

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And of course, that ties into the "Reasonableness" standard. Would a REASONABLE PERSON, BEING TRAINED NOT TO FOLLOW OR PURSUE ANYONE LEAVE THEIR PLACE OF SAFETY TO FOLLOW OR PURSUE SOMEONE???

And of course, the answer being "No" indicates to us that George Zimmerman's actions were not reasonable and prudent. Bye-Bye self-defense claim.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Getting off point, Farglebargles position is that because of diallo and a lynching in 98 a white man acused of killing a black man must automatically be guilty.

Actually, my point is that Trayvon Martin had plenty of reason to fear for his safety from the man who killed him, and that defending himself from his killer was clearly justified. And then I showed a court case to illustrate the issue at hand, where people reacting to a similar situation were judged not guilty.

The real double-standard here is that if Travyon Martin was a woman, NO-ONE would be defending George Zimmerman's choices that night.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Zimmerman didn't directly lie to the court.

Zimmerman lied to his attorney. And then his attorney lied to the court on his behalf.

No evidence of this.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

Getting off point, Farglebargles position is that because of diallo and a lynching in 98 a white man acused of killing a black man must automatically be guilty.

Actually, my point is that Trayvon Martin had plenty of reason to fear for his safety from the man who killed him, and that defending himself from his killer was clearly justified. And then I showed a court case to illustrate the issue at hand, where people reacting to a similar situation were judged not guilty.

The real double-standard here is that if Travyon Martin was a woman, NO-ONE would be defending George Zimmerman's choices that night.

May have been your point but it sure wasn't what you said. And you still fail to understand that while Martin may well have thought he was defending himself that has no bering on wether Zimmerman thought he too was was defending himself. I see that you are abandoning for the moment a race based argument for a sex based one which is just as unrelated to the case.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: igor2003

According to George's own words, he fell down immediately. He said it twice. This happened at the "T" in the sidewalk. This does NOT match the witnesses that said they heard the fight moving south. This does NOT match with where the body was eventually found.

Yes, he punched and fell. Where did he land? When punched/shoved to the ground, you don't generally crumple in a heap; your legs generally do try and recover your balance. If I was punched, managed a step or two, and landed say 8-10 feet (or more) away, I would still describe that as "being punched and falling down immediately."

He got punched at the T, that does not mean he ended up on the ground there; he never says that. That's the kind of detail an investigator needs to ask for clarity on...and once they do, Zimmerman then gives it.

No inconsistency there.

Wrong no evidence or witness to Zimmerman being bunched or even shoved. Just what Zimmerman says...and he a lair.

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Now, let's say the fight did move south, such as is supported by the witnesses and the body location. If George did fall down IMMEDIATELY after being punched, then he had to have been punched AFTER they moved, so this means that the story of Martin walking up to George, telling him he has a problem, then sucker punching him is a total lie along with the whole "Yo Homie, you got a problem?" nonsense.

Nope. I pointed out that W6 heard the screams for help coming from a distance, then coming closer. He also noted that their positions moved, with Trayvon remaining on top. George also describes trying to shimmy away from Trayvon. W11/20 heard the grunts and scuffling through the grass past their house.

No proof it was Zimmerman screaming, grunts scuffling...could have been a dog buring a bone.

You put it all together and it quite fits George's story. He gets hit at the T, lands on the ground between the T and where the shot happens, the fight moves along the ground from that point with George screaming for help until it ends up where the shot happened.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
All this is why Zimmerman was TRAINED TO NEVER PURSUE ANYONE. So, the question now becomes, "Why did George Zimmerman violate the training he received, KNOWING that he shouldn't follow that course of action?"

As covered before, there's no evidence this "training" was covered.

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And of course, that ties into the "Reasonableness" standard. Would a REASONABLE PERSON, BEING TRAINED NOT TO FOLLOW OR PURSUE ANYONE LEAVE THEIR PLACE OF SAFETY TO FOLLOW OR PURSUE SOMEONE???

And of course, the answer being "No" indicates to us that George Zimmerman's actions were not reasonable and prudent. Bye-Bye self-defense claim.

The only place the "reasonable" standard applies to George's self defense claim is the moment he pulled the trigger, under Florida law.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

The Washington Post is a newpaper, a very good one if you had read was reporting on the finding of the same report you claim, interesting that you only seem to focuse on just one test when others were taken that go on to show the lack of any proof Martin even touch Zimmerman but then again, that would not be something you want to believe, who biased?

You're entirely spinning things again. I'm pointing out that there were ZERO tests done on Martin's hands, except for the scrapings under the nails. That's it. No other tests on his hands were done, therefore you can only speculate what was or was not on his hands.

This was long known before that blogger at the Post wrote those posts completely misinterpreting the evidence.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

But what could be relevant is anything that shows a reputation for violence on Trayvon's part (swinging on a bus driver for instance, according to his cousin), or certain tweets from Deedee that put a major kink in her story (her tweets on the day of Trayvon's funeral in which she was supposedly in the hospital are interesting reading).