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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 2:02:45 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pidepiper7

quote:

I suspect this ain't your first time at the rodeo. I don't know what your motive here is but I'm not buying what you're trying to sell, so I'm out.


No you're right. I've been on your site for four hours. Not just got here. And I know more about sadism and masochism than you'll ever know sugar. I know the REAL shit. Why don't you try that out then get back to me when you've learned about it? That's the difference between you and me. For you it's just some fantasy. I see it everywhere.


You want to swap childhood abuse stories? I'll see your physical/mental abuse and add in sexual abuse. I was real cute when I was young. Even my cousin and uncle thought so as well as the principal of my grammar school when I was in third grade. My mother was usually too much into her sauce to notice that she hadn't been home for a couple of weeks. You know what the first thing CPS does when they pick you up from wandering the streets with your brother when you're 8 and it's 3 AM in the morning? They take you to a room, strip you and set you, naked, on a metal table with holes in the top of it so when they delouse you with a big canister of bug spray the liquid has a place to drain ... then they give you a sunsuit that belonged to someone else and you wait and see if you'll get picked up this time.. surely you will.. because mom, eventually, picked you up ever other time and in the back of your mind, you kind of hope that maybe she won't.. but for some reason, that's a scary thought, too.

You want to talk 'real' shit, dude. How about hoping that the next time you're hit it's with the belt instead of the metal rod that hangs by the washing machine.

You ever freak out over seeing a hairbrush?

Yeah.. the real shit.

A hairbrush. How in the hell can that cause anyone to freak out? How about when you go to try out for the baseball team even though you don't think you're very good at anything because it's what you've been told you're whole fucking life but you try out anyway and you come home, dirty, your long tangled hair but you're absolutely beaming because you made the team.. then your mom takes one look at your messy hair, gets pissed and cuts it all off. A little thing... but you're 12 and your mom has just butchered your hair so you start crying.. and that can't be tolerated.. don't fucking CRY.. cause that gets you hit across the face with a hairbrush and that causes a bruise and the one place you love more than any other place is school and you're not allowed to go until the bruise goes away. That takes 6 days. And because of all the drama you've caused .. you're not even allowed to play on the team because your attitude, in addition to getting you beat also gets your grounded for three months.

Hangers were real popular in our house, too. If you want to know how popular, just ask my brother what happens when you forget to brush your teeth before you go to bed. You get yanked off the top bunk of the room you share with your sister and get the crap beat out of you with it. I tried not to be too loud when I cried for him or I would have been next. I learned from his mistakes, too. I NEVER forgot to brush my teeth, but then talking too much at the dinner table .. when dinner was actually provided.. that's gets you the hanger, too.. or sometimes the belt. It depended on what weapons was the most handy. Never a fist though. I'll grant you that one. It was always with some weapon.. that way there's no dirty can get on you from hitting a little piece of filth even if you gave birth to it.

I never got a growth spurt. I didn't develop muscles and stuff to be able to defend myself against my attackers. Kudo's to you on being able to stop it. I never could so I ran away from home, married the first man who would have me who also happened to be an alcoholic but hell, he beat the crap outta me and that's a sign of love don't ya know. That was cool... it was all I knew anyway. I was used to it. Oh, I did a whole lot of shit to try to cope. Never drank.. but drugs, sex.. yeah. That was my 'escape' from my fantasy, white picket life with the 2.4 kids, loving parents and idyllic life that you seem to believe I have lived. Except we didn't have a picket fence. Mostly we crashed at whatever boyfriend or husband happened to be banging good old Donna Reed Mama at the time. Sometimes we slept in a car. Sometimes we didn't sleep at all. Mommy Dearest and Daddy Darling divorced when I was two.. didn't see Daddy Darling again until I was 14.

Everyone has a horror story.. mine is worse than some but not nearly as bad as others .. and I'm alive. I made it out. I quit drugs, left my husband, put myself through school with two babies to care for and found a support network that I could count on. They're not my blood.. but I consider them my family and I consider that as all I can do is repent my own sins and pay forward their support, that's what I try to do. So when I see someone come on here and write as if they are clueless about SM when CLEARLY they are not.. yeah, it smells to me. THAT's why I said it wasn't your first time at the rodeo. It had nothing to do with this site. It had to do with your knowledge. You know too much, you know the lingo too well, so no.. I didn't believe your OP was without agenda. I still don't.

Since you know the 'real' shit .. know more than I'll ever know.. well, that just goes to show you that my instinct was spot on. It ain't your first time at the rodeo.. and you just proved it. Thank you for validating my instincts.

You'll find my name in the Leather Archives. I'm the founder of UPEX. Founding member of Conservative Kink, former member of Janus and Apex, contributing author to Exchanges which was the newsletter for Janus, had my own column in Dom Sub lifestyle magazine for several years, was recruited by Crystal Bridges, have demo'd for Aton's Leather, TIES, APEX and other organizations. I've been pierced by Fakir Musofar and Cleo DuBois, got to tell WhipMaster Bob that he hits like a girl, did my first suspension with a protege of Fakir, was invited to attend and participate in a Sun Dance and have written over a million words over the last couple of decades on the subject of BDSM and I've published books and have THRIVED.. and mended fences with my dad who, for the longest time, I held accountable for not rescueing me.

So you know what, Mr. Vanilla.. you go ahead and have your little temper tantrum and think you know more than anyone else on the subject because your old man beat the snot out of you until you got big enough to hit back.

You, Sir, have learned nothing.



Now, to the thread..

I apologize for the drift. That was my bad and I had nothing to base my post on except my instinct and if I had kept my mouth shut, none of the drift would have happened. I take full responsibility for that. I am truly sorry that such occurred especially as good threads are so few and far between. I hope that the discussion can continue.. and while I won't promise that I'm not going to say fish stinks when I think fish absolutely stinks, I'll make the effort to control my tongue and will stay out of this thread from now on.

I'm putting myself on [awaiting approval] for a few days and will put more thought into my posts.






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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 3:05:47 AM   
GreedyTop


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*hugs Celeste*

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 3:11:06 AM   
areallivehuman


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OP, perhaps you should sit back and think carefully about your pre conceived definition of a dominant male. It is possible to be a Dominant and a gentleman at the same time. Dominance does not have to equal abuse. It can actually be quite fun. You do have to have mastery of yourself first.

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 3:18:38 AM   
LadyPact


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Using fast reply.......

I gave up reading right around page two. Usually, when you see somebody come on here and they get the "this ain't your first rodeo" line, something's up. I did see that some folks went to great lengths to explain things. Yeah, I'm not actually going to do that.

If I were you, OP, I don't think I'd be wondering if she can live without it. I'd be asking Myself if I could have a long term, primary relationship with someone who wants to engage in activities that obviously bother *you* so much. From what I'm gathering here, you don't have a chip on your shoulder about consensual S/m. You've got the whole potato! Yes, it's because of your abusive past, but even in a casual conversation, that YOU initiated, you're getting upset and venting out your issues. I can see the resentment brewing within just a few replies on a thread. I don't think you can do well with a person who enjoys consensual kink at this time in your life. Not if she wants to engage in it and probably not even if she just wants to talk about it. I believe you won't handle it well and it will cause strife in your relationship.

Personally, I think you should bring that possibility to the table and let her decide if she's willing to deal with that perspective from you. Shoot, I can give up anything. I don't know if I'd be willing to deal with somebody who can't separate consensual activities from abuse in their own head.


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 4:10:32 AM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
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Okay, I lied.. well, reconsidered actually but, whatever.. semantics. I'm not staying out of this thread.

I feel very foolish right now but I wouldn't take back my post even if I could. I meant every word of it and I'll own it but it doesn't convey the totality of my childhood and that's not right. I got to spend three months of every year away from California in my home state of Texas and being in Texas rocked. I got to go horseback riding almost every day and swim in the lake behind the little house and my brother and I just ignored the water moccasins that were under the boat dock. We had lazy days, good days. We had fun. We had amazing grandparents who made us appreciate hard work and production and laughter and pro-wrestling.. We picked apricots (ate more than we ever split though!) and got to drive tractors and trucks from the time we were about 12. I fell out of the back of a truck once in the middle of a sugar cane field.. bounced right out of that sucker and, yeah, it hurt at the time but my brother maintains to this day it was the most comical sight he'd ever seen and his laughter back then makes me laugh now. My brother and I, we also always had each other and that, too, is a lot more than most folks. Sometimes I forget that sort of stuff and how really blessed I am and how much my current life means to me. I gotta remember that good stuff, too.. it's way more important.

So, fuck.. I'm sorry, folks.

And piedpiper, I'm sorry to you as well. I don't know your story either and to compare and contrast does nothing to further discussion. I hate when other people do that so when I do it myself, it's quite hypocritcal and I'm not proud of that.. for what it's worth.







_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 4:19:51 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

That's sort of where you're at: you don't like the game, and you hate the stuff used to play it, but your girlfriend really likes baseball. And now you've just had an argument with baseball fans about how you know the real use for baseball bats and what all sports are really about, leaving the baseball fans somewhat perplexed and less than impressed, at which point you say you've learned all there is to know about baseball and leave. I'm thinking there's a lot of room for improvement in both aspects of this situation.


Great analogy!

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 4:21:01 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

JustDragonflies,

That was a fucking awesome post.

<tips hat>


+1


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 4:43:33 AM   
DarkSteven


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Sorry, fella, but Celeste's been into the lifestyle far longer than most of us have. M/s, not just D/s. If you're not willing to listen to and respect her, there's no point in me chiming in.

Good luck.

< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 9/26/2012 4:44:11 AM >


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 4:44:47 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I feel very foolish right now but I wouldn't take back my post even if I could.


I am glad you posted and glad you can't take it back. Thanks for sharing :)

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 6:00:41 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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Using FR:

BitaTruble is not the only one who smells a rat. I just read this entire thread, and I agree with her.

I do not believe the OP came here for advice about his girlfriend. I think he's here to tell us how enlightened he is and how enlightened we're not.

Here's some examples:

quote:

Besides, all of life is role play. There's nothing different about BDSM from any other type of relationship in this regard. And in fact, every "vanilla" relationship I've ever seen is also about control and control games. No different really as far as I can see. You can even find asshole fathers to beat sons, redneck men to beat wives .... Its all there.


quote:

A real Master wouldn't let you off so easy ... ;) and I suspect the BDSM community would be as uncomfortable about exploring these boundary-less regions as any other self-identified group.

If you really want to give up control it seems you need to give up domination and submission. Give it ALL up if you dare. That's genuine submission. That would actually be something different.

I'm not sure what BDSM is .... But it doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with submission ... and nobody seems to actually be in control ... so what is it? I've been trolling tese forums trying to figure it out..


When called on his crap, the OP had the obligatory hissy fit:

quote:

I know more about sadism and masochism than you'll ever know sugar. I know the REAL shit. Why don't you try that out then get back to me when you've learned about it? That's the difference between you and me. For you it's just some fantasy. I see it everywhere.


I noticed the OP ignored Janah's contribution (Gawd I love me some Janah), which was as usual, very focused and informative:

quote:

Its about a lot of things. And no - youre not going to "just" understand it. There is so many branches to the tree - that when you finally think you know whats going on - you find out something new. It took me years to educate myself about all the different shit that goes with the BDSM title. What you think you know about it usually isnt anything like what the reality of it is. Basically - its what you make it.



No one with any intelligence thinks we invented dominance or submission or sadism or masochism. The only reason to imply that is to provoke an argument. To have such strong feelings about the subject does seem to indicate the OP has more knowledge and exposure than he has stated.




< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 9/26/2012 6:01:37 AM >


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 6:57:55 AM   
pidepiper7


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Joined: 9/25/2012
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quote:

To have such strong feelings about the subject does seem to indicate the OP has more knowledge and exposure than he has stated


I DO have strong feelings about the subject.

I have never read about sadomasochism prior to yesterday. I read on Wikipedia. I read other sites. I came here. If you honestly believe I have some special knowledge or exposure, then know that everything I've said is true. I DO know abusive, controlling relationships. Any insight I have comes from real life. You should think about that. Maybe I'm not so off-base ...

I read one of your threads here from submissives who WANTED to bear their Master's marks. I know exactly what they're talking about - I had my share of "marks". What freaks me out is that someone would want this on purpose and would feel pride to have these marks. I just can't compute. You can. I can't.

I DO have anger issues. I was a VERY heavy drinker for a long time. I am freaked-out by the thought of hitting or being hit by my girlfriend for pleausre. I DO NOT associate this with pleasure and simply cannot comprehend that someone would. I've seen TOO MUCH of it! WTF!?

And I'm very saddened by this sudden "kink" in the relationship. Maybe I feel so compatible with my GF b/c I understand masochism on a visceral level and she seeks it out consciously. I have no idea. I only know that I REALLY like her.

And now I know that this is DEFINITELY going to be a serious issue between us from multiple posts on this forum. And now I know that it would be wrong for me to push her. I should just walk away ....

And for that I thank you ...

< Message edited by pidepiper7 -- 9/26/2012 7:11:19 AM >

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 7:06:22 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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I agree, I think you should walk away from her, not because of the BDSM issue, but because you appear too damaged to pursue any relationship at this point in your life. Perhaps your time would be better spent in therapy.

I'm not saying this to be mean or to bait you in any way. I understand you all too well, as I did not experience the best childhood, and have had my own issues with substance abuse. I know from experience that sort of background does not make you good relationship material unless and until you get yourself sorted.


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 7:24:09 AM   
pidepiper7


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Joined: 9/25/2012
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quote:

I agree, I think you should walk away from her, not because of the BDSM issue, but because you appear too damaged to pursue any relationship at this point in your life. Perhaps your time would be better spent in therapy.


I could and do say the same to you. See a therapist (how does that make you feel??)

I am an extremely considerate and sharing person. I dealt with my drinking and I have a stable, healthy, and very balanced life. I AM capable of genuine intimacy (I'm not talking about physical). And I'll walk away not because I can't have a relationship and not because I can't have a relationship with a masochist. I can. But I'll walk away because of the BDSM issue and because you all are saying this is a big deal to her. That's the only reason. I won't get into a pissing contest with her about this (I like her too much to add to whatever issues she's dealing with).

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 7:34:23 AM   
kalikshama


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We don't know her. It may or may not be a big deal to HER. It would be a big deal to ME, but talk to HER.

Oh, one need not have to have "issues" to enjoy BDSM, in fact, the prevalence is the same as in the general population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM#Psychology

There are only a few studies researching the psychological aspects of BDSM using modern scientific standards. A pivotal survey on the subject was published by US-American psychotherapist Charles Moser in 1988 in the Journal of Social Work and Human Sexuality.[67] His conclusion was that while there is a general lack of data on the psychological problems of BDSM practitioners, some fundamental results are obvious. He emphasizes that there is no evidence for the theory that BDSM has common symptoms or any common psychopathology; Clinical literature, though does not give a consistent picture of BDSM practitioners. Moser emphasizes that there is no evidence at all supporting the theory of BDSM practitioners having any special psychiatric problems or even problems based solely on their preferences.

Moser's results were supported by data presented to the 2007 World Congress of Sexology by Juliet Richters, Richard De Visser, Andrew Grulich, and Christopher Rissel. The researchers found that BDSM practitioners were no more likely to have experienced sexual assault than the control group, and were not more likely to feel unhappy or anxious. The BDSM males reported higher levels of psychological well-being than the controls. It was concluded that "BDSM is simply a sexual interest attractive to a minority, not a pathological symptom of past abuse or difficulty with normal sex."[94]



< Message edited by kalikshama -- 9/26/2012 7:38:37 AM >


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 7:40:21 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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What makes you think I haven't seen a therapist? What makes you think I don't have one on speed dial?

How does it make me feel? Like a person who's smart enough to know *anyone* with my family background is going to have issues they can't sort themselves. And that I'm insightful enough to know when I need help.

That's how it makes me feel.

So, you say you have your stuff dealt with, great, that's not what it sounds like from the tenor of your posts, but what do I know? It seems as if you want to have an argument here, but I'm not going to oblige. You think BDSM is abuse, well, join the party.

Anyone into this has had to come to terms with close-minded people thinking that long ago. You are entitled to your opinion; the people on this board disagree with it.

The thing you do not appear to comprehend is that we do not need or even desire your validation.

You want to walk away from your gf because she's a masochist or a switch or a whatever, do that. Or work on trying to open your mind and understand her. Whatever floats your boat.





< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 9/26/2012 7:42:50 AM >


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 7:46:55 AM   
pidepiper7


Posts: 12
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quote:

"BDSM is simply a sexual interest attractive to a minority, not a pathological symptom of past abuse or difficulty with normal sex."


Ok. I accept this. To each his own. Again, thanks. Most of you were actually pretty helpful and considerate.

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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 8:32:10 AM   
evesgrden


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To the OP:

I'm going to take your concerns at face value.

There are as many ways to doing this as there are people doing it. There are vanilla couples who tie each other up and play tap and tickle and then drink toddies in a heart shaped tub after wards. There's Ward and June Cleaver where Ward was boss, and June looked great wearing her pearls while doing the dishes.

Pied, perhaps what you can't get your head around is voluntarily being in a relationship where you can't wait to get out of that relationship and never see that person again. Or your thoughts of that person entail some sort of justice. Where you are or have been seriously afraid of that person. Where you want nothing to do with that person.

On the flip side, what you can't get your head around is bearing malice and behaving maliciously in what's supposed to be a loving relationship.

Of course these things are difficult to fathom.But that ain't this.

You did touch on something which has certain element of truth, but you used the term "roleplay" which offends many. But what we do here does entail a good deal of behaving "as if". If it didn't, none of us would ever have discussed the temporary suspension of disbelief. Safewords would not exist. And when someone wants to leave you and you really don't let them, it's kidnapping.

When a slave agrees to become a slave, they have basically said "I will behave as if I do not have any rights". But they have "inalienable" rights. That's why Sharia law is prosecuted here. It doesn't matter what you believe at home, humans have rights in this country even when they say they don't.

Back to your post and gf:
She says she's a masochist. That means that there are sensations that she likes, typically related to play, but I doubt she gets wet when she stubs her toe. You are assuming a problem because you are presuming what masochism means to her. There are as many ways of doing this as there are people doing it. (I don't think I can say that too often, frankly. Besides, onetruewayism annoys me.) So what makes you think she'd like to experience what you experienced as a kid? Did you know that some floggings feel like a thudding back rub, some feel like you're getting a great back scratch, some spanking just gets all the blood flowing to your parts and makes everything feel wonderful, some "ouches" paired with some stroking or a deep kiss are incredibly erotic....

and now I have to catch myself, because I wonder if I'm just feeding the trolls (reminds me of the old ACLU d/s board). If you've read so much about this, why do you think what you experienced as a kid, is what masochists want or experience? Do you really think that bottoms who play with tops are truly terrorized, or experience loathing?

Why do you think that the headspace, or even the behavior of a dominant bears any resemblance to what your father did to you? I'm a dominant and have never struck anyone in anger in my life. Ever.

That said, can things get too extreme? Horrific, illegal?
You bet.. anyone remember gmyourgod?

Can absolute power corrupt absolutely. Sure. We dominants start buying our own press, it sure can.

You need to talk to your girlfriend. You need to find out what submission looks like to her. You need to find out what masochism means to her. You come in here with a bit of Chicken Little and the sky is falling and you should call the whole thing off, and she just might want you to grab a fistful of her hair and kiss here like she's never been kissed before, smack her ass a bit and you're good to go and that's it.

But you come in here and ask US if you should leave her? Ask HER.

edited for mucho typos.. sheesh

< Message edited by evesgrden -- 9/26/2012 9:05:16 AM >


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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/26/2012 12:44:34 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Yes, but that's because you've not done much programming in C or C-derived programming languages ;-)


That's hardly the only place it's used, though I must admit my first impulse was "ah, a hacker".

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Sorry about the quote, I am sleepy and being lazy...LOL


Haha, no worries.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
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RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 9/29/2012 2:13:13 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pidepiper7

Ok. I accept this. To each his own. Again, thanks. Most of you were actually pretty helpful and considerate.


Most people will not be very vulnerable with random strangers on the Internet, nor go the extra mile to be constructive. In a relationship, these two factors are usually reversed. However, the net result is similar. It's likely that your relationship will end up with some snags that will be difficult to deal with for both of you. And in the long run, it will probably have an outcome not dissimilar to this thread. In short, it's a near certainty that you'll have more challenges than most relationships, and most relationships don't last in the first place.

I stand by my earlier suggestions, as I think it can be worthwhile to try, but the default in this case should probably be to abort before it gets too serious.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to pidepiper7)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Non-BDSM man with SM girlfriend - 10/1/2012 2:30:38 PM   
ghettomonkey69


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/13/2012
Status: offline
You know when you get into a fight with a man and then after you feel really good like an incredible stress has been relieved?well,its kiind of like that with her an incredible orgasm as a bonus for her lol unless you are drunk and beating her ass for the hell of it against her wishes...you arent abusing,just take baby steps,talk with her.see what she wants to what level she wishes to be a pain slut and start smal and build up as she goes into subbie mode,her brain changes gears and sometimes they will cry tears of joy once they reach their subbie frame of mind.some willl get sick if they ever even think they are in control of anything.just keep a stern look on your face even if you are laughing inside and pretend to abuse her.roleplay-just talk to her like you would a dog,"come here!" "sit!" and make shit up,toss a crumb on the floor after she cleans house and accuse her of not doing what she was told.then chain her hands behind her back while she is naked and shove her face in the corner for an hour ,ocasionally walking past and smacking her ass with your belt:-)thenmake her beg to be let up and come to bed lol and whallah!its on like donkey kong lmfao......but seriously-just find out what she needs and work out creative ways t make it happen,sounds like you love her,and she obviously likes being with you.I have been told someone not knowing can gain insght by reading 50 shades of gray-actually its a trilogy that might help you uderstand a little more,though i found it lacking....but read them with her and do a questions and answer session,you might really see its not as drastic as it seems :-)good luck

(in reply to pidepiper7)
Profile   Post #: 80
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