RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 4:27:43 AM)


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ORIGINAL: theRose4U


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


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ORIGINAL: FilmWithMistrix

My definition?

If you call to book a session, and request forced bi.. and then pay extra for it... no matter how much we role play 'force'... you're bi... get over it.

If I am playing with you on a personal level, and I surprise you with a cock & you acquiesce & suck it, but havent requested/indicated an interest in doing so prior... then its forced regardless of the amount of force (mental/physical/whatever) required to get you to do it.


This ^ and if you put in your likes and wants on your profile 'forced bi' you are bi.

By that logic because I like to jump & put it in profile...I'm a kangaroo!!!!


What are you talking about?!?! If you like to jump then you like to jump. If you enjoy or fantasize about consensual forced bi then you are bi.



MariaB -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 5:04:33 AM)


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ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

~fr

“what's the point of forced bi, and does it even exist?”
Nope, doesn’t exist. They could always refuse.

Totally agree

quote:



Even in prison, you can fight to the death before getting raped. So it is a voluntary choice.


Its quite disturbing that you think like that. Are you saying that men can't be raped by other men? that really its consensual?
What if its three or four men holding him down?
Did you know that when a woman gets raped she often doesn't fight because she fears death? does that make it consensual?





FrostedFlake -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 6:49:07 AM)

With a hat tip to Lady Pact, let's not overlook the Kinsey Scale.

Kinsey Website.

Some folks are Straight, some are Gay, most are some of each. There must be huge numbers of people with an extremely minor interest in the same gender. Something they wouldn't pursue for its' own sake, but which might make a clever and interesting game...

I'd go on, but why.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 7:47:42 AM)

Using FR:

I have serious some issues with the concept that because a person has (more or less) absolute power over another, that automatically means the one in power is going to use it to the detriment of their s-type.

All good dominants know that *because* you have that power, you have to use it wisely.

Although it may seem to some that a female s-type having sex with another female is a soft limit (no one is physically harmed in the process), unless you know the person well, you really don't have any idea of what kind of psychological damage you could inflict.

And although I understand Kana's perception of forced bi as being a power trip for the dominant, for a submissive, it could be extremely humiliating. And as most of us know, humiliation can be extremely damaging.

For example, Himself and I share limits for the most part, but I do have some soft limits that have to do with humiliation. (I either love humiliation, or hate it.)

He knows me well enough to know that although it is pathetically easy for him to get me to a point I would do anything for him, he can't push those limits, b/c to do so would be damaging to me.

It's nothing I have to worry about in the least, b/c he's not interested in damaging me, I know that.

That lw and mos have established relationships where they share their d-types limits does not mean they feel "so deep a need to be with someone I would do anything they asked." It's not an issue of being needy, it's an issue of TRUST.






Kana -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 8:14:48 AM)

quote:

All good dominants know that *because* you have that power, you have to use it wisely.

And with caution. Don't go running willy-nilly into shit. Think about the ramifications, the long term effects down the road. Ask yourself, "Is the risk worth the payoff?"
Am I willing to gamble everything in our relationship for this one thing. And if so, what's the price I'M gonna pay, because sure as hell, I'm gonna pay one too.
It might not be anything readily visible, but the internal dynamics of the relationship are gonna change, and that means I'm gonna change too



kdsub -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:03:38 AM)

Just my personal opinion that I am sure has been expresses here already…but one for those who tally scores.

I am a firm believer that no one will do anything with free will that they do not deep down desire. Some have spoken of not wanting sex with the same gender but do it because their dominate other demands it. Will to me this is a cop out… the act of submission to the dom’s desire is no different than the desire for same sex. Both want the contact even if for different reasons.

Sooooo the point is mutual pleasure and damn the syntax.

Butch



LadyPact -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:12:54 AM)

Wholeheartedly agreed with Kana. (And a thanks for the tip of the hat as well.)

Earlier in the thread, there was a statement that CP even admitted may be a little gender biased about finding males, rather than females, to do this stuff with. Here's another one. Due to cultural and societal influences, I may tend to have more concerns about putting a male slave into the scenario than I would a female. I absolutely do believe that some males could have a great deal of issues even engaging in certain acts and feel that it might be a reflection of their manhood. Sorry, but we aren't past treating things like same gender sexual acts in the same light.

There's seriously something to be said for knowing who you are dealing with and knowing what they can handle and what they can't. I won't speak for any of the other Dominants who get into this, but personally, I don't consider this something that I do in one giant leap. It's not like there are never any conversations about it or other methods to see how the person reacts. If it was a hard limit that would never have any possibility of moving, that would be something that I would look at *before* the collar ever went on them. I've had that scenario before. Sometimes it changed. Sometimes it didn't. I've never told anyone that the latter wasn't acceptable.

For what it's worth, I think it would surprise a lot of people just what kinds of things some men will do in bed just because of how much it turns a chick on. Encouragement in the heat of passion is a very powerful tool. Erotic suggestion at just the right time is another. Something that drives a female wild in bed? More men than you think will at least consider the venture.


ETA who I was agreeing with since a post came in while I was typing.



SimplyMichael -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:21:37 AM)

There are a few dimentions to being dominant. There is a vast difference between being dominant and being an EFFECTIVE dominant. Then there is the difference in how you structure your relationships. Some want a parade of partners, others, like myself, seek an ever deepening, mutually benificial relationship.

So, when I do something, I am looking to see how it will affect our future. I am more interested in tomorrow because I have only one today but a lifetime of tomorrows. So, if forcing someone to do something is going to be detrimental, I am unlikely to do it. If I am determined to do it, I work on building her the emotional support, the bridge to get her where I want her to go.




myotherself -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:23:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub



Sooooo the point is mutual pleasure and damn the syntax.

Butch


I get your drift, Butch, but my question would be in what you mean by pleasure?

Is it pleasure from the act itself, for example orgasm?

Or is it hating the act, but getting pleasure from pleasing the dominant?

Because to me, that still does not make a sub/slave/whatever bisexual, just willing to do anything to please their dominant.



kdsub -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:39:37 AM)

Hi myotherself

Whatever brings pleasure is the point and reason for actions and is what is important. The labeling of straight or bi is irrelevant as a point.

I do understand people saying if you have sex of any kind with the same gender deep down you are bi or you would not do it. I think this is not necessarily true but true in most cases….BUT…if it is done to please another then it is also pleasing yourself no matter what your sexual orientation. So there is no difference as a bottom line as to whether one is gay bi or straight when it comes to the pleasure derived.

Butch



LizDeluxe -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:42:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
There is a vast difference between being dominant and being an EFFECTIVE dominant.


The key element of being an effective dominant is recognizing that what is effective with one submissive may not be so with the next submissive. One size does not fit all.

Not to muddy the water, mind you.



SimplyMichael -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:47:53 AM)

One last point on the bit about being "bi" if you enjoy the pleasure but dont desire men.

Men have fucked sheep for millenia but dont know of any who date them...



myotherself -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:49:29 AM)

Thanks for the clarification Butch.

Seems we are on the same page [:D]



chatterbox24 -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 9:57:54 AM)

I personally think if someone is routinely being "forced bi" and genuinely do not like it, its abuse. What good dom will do this to someone, and have any real care for that person? If that same sub is performing this and hates it, I think he/she is pretty confused. Sounds desperate, and sounds damaging. Playing with fire always ends up with someone getting burnt. Either someone comes out with more strength and smarter, and thinks I dont think I will be doing that anymore! Or they become weaker, and damaged and play the same game over and over and never recover.



SimplyMichael -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 10:03:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Either someone comes out with more strength and smarter, and thinks I dont think I will be doing that anymore! Or they become weaker, and damaged and play the same game over and over and never recover.


Wow, what a terribly limiting view. If this is true, what do you think of masochists who love pain? Or people who get off on humiliation? We do stuff we hate all the time for hosts of reasons.



myotherself -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 10:08:08 AM)

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

In my opinion you simply don't understand the mindset of a slave or a Master, or the strength of the relationship between them.




LadyPact -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 10:08:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I personally think if someone is routinely being "forced bi" and genuinely do not like it, its abuse. What good dom will do this to someone, and have any real care for that person? If that same sub is performing this and hates it, I think he/she is pretty confused. Sounds desperate, and sounds damaging. Playing with fire always ends up with someone getting burnt. Either someone comes out with more strength and smarter, and thinks I dont think I will be doing that anymore! Or they become weaker, and damaged and play the same game over and over and never recover.
Oh, bullshit!

Go read the boards and find out how many s-types hate crops, but their D-type loves using crops. Have a chat with the people who take pain because it's what their M wants to do to them to do and they don't have a shred of masochist in them. Do you think everybody who has a punishment dynamic wants to be punished when a transgression of magnitude warrants it?

Take My word for this one. YOU don't get to decide what constitutes abuse in other people's dynamics.

And for what it's worth, not every person who engages in fire play gets burnt. The idea is for the top to burn the fuel, not the person.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 10:31:08 AM)

Your continued lack of understanding of the M/s dynamic is truly appalling at this point.

I do all kinds of things for Himself that I don't like to do, and some of them I actually hate. Want an example? Cleaning the toilets. In our relationship, that's my job. If I want to stay here, I have to accept that and do it, even though I hate it.

Now, who thinks that's abuse?

Since it's housework, most will tut tut and say it's "old fashioned."

Toss some sex in there, add some power and control, and all the sudden it's abuse.

The idea of people doing things they hate to stay in a relationship is not even a kink thing. Most vanilla couples do it too, and it's not abuse, or being overly needy, or any other crap. It's about making sacrifices for the one you love.

Loving someone is easy if they never, ever, expect you to do something you don't like. Shesh, the test of *any* adult relationship is a person's ability to put their other ahead of themselves some of the time.

Forced bi is for some perhaps an extreme example of that. But dang, give some people credit here, both doms and subs please, for having some idea of what they are doing in their relationships.

Sure, we get a lot of people asking for advice that *are* in abusive situations. You were in one. But don't color everyone and everything with that brush. B/c now that starts making YOU the abuser.






DesFIP -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 11:01:05 AM)

I'm with the bunny. If he demanded it, I probably wouldn't have the strength to refuse right away. I don't handle pressure well and probably would cave. What he couldn't do is make me enjoy it. He couldn't make me distrust him afterward. He couldn't prevent me from feeling nauseous and crying the whole time. He couldn't force me to tell her that I enjoyed it and wanted to repeat the experience in a believable manner.

But doing this would change the relationship for the worst. Because if he orders me to start lying, then that means I will doubt his honesty and I will feel that lying to him is now acceptable. For me, being a little bit dishonest is like being a little bit pregnant. As time goes on, it gets bigger. Same with distrust.

He couldn't prevent me from finding all sex unpleasant afterwards, especially with him when I would associate him with this traumatic experience. He couldn't order me not to have flash backs. And so on.

However, I do understand people requesting forced play. Because I've had things I wanted to try but literally couldn't do on my own. And found much easier to do the first time while restrained.



Kana -> RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? (11/4/2012 11:35:27 AM)

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The idea is for the top to burn the fuel, not the person.

Oh man, I like this (Would be a great sig line).

I know you are saying it re fireplay in specific, but this is an idea that cuts across lots of lines, especially internally, spiritually, and most of all, emotionally.



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