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RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 11:22:14 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddyplsfindme

I read thru most and not sure if anyone brought up this point yet, but it is not ALL vaccines, there were studies done that proved it is only the ones made using tissue from aborted fetuses that cause such issues, and any parent needs to do their research and your pediatrician MUSTgive you the info for the companies they purchase their vaccines from, then as the parent you do the research needed.
I went to alot of conferences on such things, as I used to work with children with autism, on many levels of the spectrum. I surely did the research before I agreed to have my now 2 yr old vaccinated. People need to be better informed, and our government isnt going to do it for us.
I provied a link, but there are many more out there as well

http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2011/07/10/maximum-nondisclosure-research-contends-aborted-fetal-tissue-in-vaccines-causes-autism


A link to Helen V. Ratajczak's study

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/theoretical-aspects-of-autism-causes-a-review1.pdf

A critique of the study here....

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/02/11/sloppy-science-a-perfect-example-of-how-the-anti-vaccine-crowd-will-listen-to-anything/



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RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 1:05:50 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

It is highly likely that my youngest has mild Asperger's. He is very....Sheldon Cooper-like. ;) I have wondered about the merit of having him tested since he functions so well overall.



Sheldon Cooper, off of "The Big Bang Theory," does not have autism.  OCD, that is possible.

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RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 1:36:27 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U
I would question the genetic connection of aspergers as well. Why would one twin have full blown aspergers & the other merely be a finctioning person with periodic bouts of asshole-itis?

Old roomie & twin only time I've personally encountered aspergers...twin was a trip to be around literally zero filter

That is interesting as well. It raises the question "What is Asperger's?"

I have only once met a person diagnosed with Asperger's as well; and of course there was Albert Einistein. From what I read, they are much like me, though my condition is acquired and in my opinion is more extreme.

As for those twins, I would have to study them and question them in person, and even then I might not get a clue.


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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 2:25:42 PM   
cordeliasub


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Status: offline 		I thought this was interesting from Psychology Today

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/aspergers-diary/200904/sheldony-or-aspergery-the-big-bang-theory

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 2:47:02 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I find myself in an odd situation where generally I very much believe in science and fact over wishful thinking and religion.


That is odd.

quote:

These studies which all point to the lack of a connection... are they trustworthy?


The lack of a connection to vaccines at a population level among Caucasians seems well established.

For other groups, we might entertain the notion of a connection, if disinclined to learn more.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 3:03:06 PM   
needlesandpins


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Status: offline 		autism, like many other things has been around for along long time. well before vaccines. to put this in prospective;

my brother is 36 and nearly died twice from summer colds. had it not been for our family dr driving him in his own car to the hospital he'd have died. he actually had asthma. i do too, but to a much lesser degree than my brother. we both also suffer with hayfever. for me this also manifests in digestion problems as i am allergic to all cereals. i blister when touching them in extreme, i can eat them but in small doses. it has nothing to do with taste as i love the taste of most cereals, it's just that they screw up my stomach.

these days it's common to be diagnosed with hayfever, and/or asthma. back when my brother was finally diagnosed with it no-one had heard of it in our village, or those where our families lived. i have a cousin with hayfever, my mum developed asthma rather late in life, my ex has asthma too. you'd think my son would be really bad with it but he's not it's only very mild if at all.

autism at one time saw you shut up in assylums, as has been mentioned, and had a huge stygma attached to it as all mental illness did. children were hidden away, or misdiagnised.

when i was at school there was no such thing as adhd and the like. we were taught manners and to do as you're told. i'm sorry to say that America has a huge tendency to diagnose naughty kids as having a problem and doping them up. it's fast becoming the popular thing here too. i'm damn sure that most attention disorders are totally parent created.

now here is something else that seems to get over looked; our population is blowing up out of proportion. it stands to reason that as a genetic pool gets bigger so does its diagnosed problem. that doesn't mean it has anything to do with vaccines.

i vaccinated my son, and still would if i had to choose again in spite of the so called possible link. i'd rather risk that than my son dying. i think people that don't vaccinate their kids are down right selfish to risk their child, and possibly someone else's child too.

needles

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 3:05:11 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

Where do the vaccine companies get the cells for these vaccines? They get them from companies like Coriell Cell Repositories, 403 Haddon Avenu, Camden, New Jersey 08103, 800-752-3805. This company has many cell lines, which are cultures of self-perpetuating cells. Each culture of cells is continually reproducing, making more cells. Those cells are sold to researchers, drug companies, and other medical technology firms. The specific cell lines used in vaccines are the MRC-5 and WI-38 cell lines1, and they have been supplying medical research of all types for more than 35 years. Where do these cell lines come from? That's where the grain of truth in this lie comes from. Both of these cell lines were cultured from cells taken from two abortions, one (MRC-5) that was performed in September,19662 and one (WI-38) that was performed in July, 19623.


http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion


quote:

Some vaccines, including the Mumps Measles Rubella (MMR) vaccine, contain killed viruses. The viruses are cultured in aborted fetal tissue. Regarding the MMR vaccine, the CDC states:

The rubella vaccine virus is cultured in human cell-line cultures, and some of these cell lines originated from aborted fetal tissue, obtained from legal abortions in the 1960's. No new fetal tissue is needed to produce cell lines to make these vaccines, now or in the future. Fetal tissue is not used to produce vaccines; cell lines generated from a single fetal tissue source are used; vaccine manufacturers obtain human cell lines from FDA-certified cell banks. After processing, very little, if any, of that tissue remains in the vaccine.


http://autism.about.com/od/medicalissuesandautis1/f/vaxfetal.htm

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/07/22/thermonuclear-stupid-about-vaccines-from/


There is not aborted fetal tissue in any vaccines.

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 3:13:48 PM   
Aswad


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You know you're far out left field when the Pope is less skeptical of the baby content of your vaccines than you are.

This is no different than any other cell line, and it's used to combat some of the most serious viruses out there, that cannot be incubated in any other way under current rules. People use these cell lines because they provide consistent results, taking out all the X factors that you don't want in your equations when making stuff that goes into people's bodies.

Big pharma does a lot of funky stuff, but this doesn't seem to be one of them.

Now, what I would like to see, is a complete sequencing of these cell lines, compared to a population level sample in a single shotgun run, to verify that the cultures are reasonably close to being representative and that there aren't any anomalies that could theoretically cause a problem at some point in the future, such as prion genes that could trigger under certain circumstances.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 3:20:06 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddyplsfindme

I read thru most and not sure if anyone brought up this point yet, but it is not ALL vaccines, there were studies done that proved it is only the ones made using tissue from aborted fetuses that cause such issues, and any parent needs to do their research and your pediatrician MUSTgive you the info for the companies they purchase their vaccines from, then as the parent you do the research needed.
I went to alot of conferences on such things, as I used to work with children with autism, on many levels of the spectrum. I surely did the research before I agreed to have my now 2 yr old vaccinated. People need to be better informed, and our government isnt going to do it for us.
I provied a link, but there are many more out there as well

http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2011/07/10/maximum-nondisclosure-research-contends-aborted-fetal-tissue-in-vaccines-causes-autism

No. The evidence is overwhelming. No vaccine causes autism.

The journal article in question is a review of existing research and the stuff about human DNA is rank speculation with no data to support it.
http://www.vaccineinitiative.org/?p=328

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 6:49:39 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
when i was at school there was no such thing as adhd and the like. we were taught manners and to do as you're told. i'm sorry to say that America has a huge tendency to diagnose naughty kids as having a problem and doping them up. it's fast becoming the popular thing here too.

And usually they are the youngest children - with the least developed brains - in the class, I read once.

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
i'm damn sure that most attention disorders are totally parent created.

Indeed. Or due to stress.

But there truly are people with attention disorders.

On the other hand people that have no attention disorder can also be distracted. Sometimes during a conversation I am more preoccupied with my own thoughts and have to ask "Would you please repeat that?"

I do think that the attention disorder is not the problem, but how the world at large meets the (educational) needs of those people. Swallowing a pil is the easy - but far from the optimal - solution.

< Message edited by Rule -- 11/26/2012 6:50:13 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/26/2012 7:05:23 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
quote:

Both of these cell lines were cultured from cells taken from two abortions


quote:

The rubella vaccine virus is cultured in human cell-line cultures
...
After processing, very little, if any, of that tissue remains in the vaccine.

There is not aborted fetal tissue in any vaccines.

The immune system does not care what the origin of an antigen is. That these cell lines were derived from fetuses therefore is not relevant, nor that the fetuses were aborted.

What might be relevant is that the viruses are cultured in human cell lines. And it is admitted that some proteins from those cell lines might contaminate the vaccine. If so, conceivably the immune system of some people might start a defense reaction to those proteins and if such proteins are also present on some nerve cells, those cells might be destroyed.

It is for precisely to prevent such an immune defense reaction that the adjuvant in all vaccines is a protein from sea urchins, which are evolutionary at such a remote distance that their protein is unlikely to ever trigger an auto/immune response.

Nevertheless, though an option, I do not think that such human tissue is responsible for autism. But I will keep it in mind.

_____________________________

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 5:05:59 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
i'm damn sure that most attention disorders are totally parent created.

Were you aware that that's another reason for the rise in autism diagnosis?
A child psychologist published that autism was largely the result of bad parenting in the '50s. I'm unsure if this notion has since been disproven, or if his argument was unsubstantiated in the first place, but it was taken very seriously for a long while in either case. One result of this, of course, is that it made psychiatrists extremely reluctant to diagnose a child with autism if they could possibly describe their problem as something else, as until this repellant idea that it was caused by a failure in their child's early upbringing went out of fashion around the turn of the '70s, diagnosing a kid as autistic sounded like a criticism of the parents.

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 6:35:53 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have often wondered if autism isnt a recessive trait somehow.

Did some research and it appears pretty certain it is not a classsic single recessive gene, the pattern of who gets it is not consistent with that.

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RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 8:26:22 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Were you aware that that's another reason for the rise in autism diagnosis?


Yeah, as you say, there's a lot of politics in diagnosis, and the now debunked "refrigerator mom" theory was part of the reason for that, and probably played a part in spurring the antimedicine movement and its derivates (e.g. antivax, etc.). So, yes, there are periods where a diagnosis is less popular, or more popular, and it influences the prevalence over time.

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 8:35:26 AM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins
i'm damn sure that most attention disorders are totally parent created.


Indeed. Or due to stress.

But there truly are people with attention disorders.

On the other hand people that have no attention disorder can also be distracted. Sometimes during a conversation I am more preoccupied with my own thoughts and have to ask "Would you please repeat that?"

I do think that the attention disorder is not the problem, but how the world at large meets the (educational) needs of those people. Swallowing a pil is the easy - but far from the optimal - solution.


To needles: Attention disorders are not necessarily taught. I won't say never, it's too heavy a word. However, I can say from firsthand experience that my son isn't frequently distracted because of anything from myself or his mother. He can't remember what was said after two minutes on bad days; frequently pauses during basic tasks like brushing his teeth trying to remember what he's doing, and how to do it; and yet he can quote nearly every line ever said by Winnie the Pooh (his fixation).

As a parent I'll be the first to say yes! That is frustrating. And there are times when he does remember something and lies, to avoid getting a consequence (typical kid stuff). Perhaps I passed on something genetically, but this isn't a social conditioning for him. It's a daily struggle that makes his life hard, and it frustrates him.

If by created you meant genetically, I won't disagree; but if you're saying it happens because parents are ignorant, then you need to meet more parents of children with acute ADHD. The reality takes a little of the armchair guessing out of the picture.

To Rule: I agree that a pill isn't the solution. It can help, but frequent reminders and lessons on how to be more aware also go a long way towards making a life more productive and happy.

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 9:21:03 AM   
needlesandpins


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Status: offline 		no i don't mean genetic. i did say most as i am well awear that some chilren/adults have problems. i do mean that kids are developing into disruptive little shits because some parents allow them to be. i have worked with lots of children with learning disabilties, and adults. far too many children just need to be taught to respect their elders, and have some manners. they are lumped in to having attention disorders because it's easy and makes money. also a dr doesn't have to tell a parent that they are the one creating the monster because they are neglecting their duty to their child.

as for arm chair guessing, not a chance. it's something i've worked with on and off for 23yrs. and just so you know; alot of what you have explained about your son is exactly what my son was like when younger. however, he was brought up with manners, taught to respect his elders, taught it's wrong to be disruptive just because you are having a hard time. he did not have drugs, he did have alot of support through our dr, his school (which i had to fight like a bitch to get), and a child psyc. he could quite easily have been diagnosed with adhd, but he doesn't have that. in fact no-one was quite sure what he has. asperger's was suggested, as was mild autism, but he doesn't show enough signs to be truely classified in those two groups. he was starved of oxygen when born as he was born with the cord around his neck, and he got rather stessed during a long hard labour. he still has problems now, but he has learnt how to deal with them.

so, like i said, i'm not saying that it never occures, i'm saying that alot of the time it's bullshit and down to bad parenting....as well as being let down by the system because it's easier.

needles

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RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 9:40:37 AM   
LizDeluxe


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Status: offline 		And saccharine causes cancer in rats if you give them the equivalent of drinking 100 sodas a day. As was the case in that study, you have to follow the money.

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 9:47:59 AM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

no i don't mean genetic. i did say most as i am well awear that some chilren/adults have problems. i do mean that kids are developing into disruptive little shits because some parents allow them to be. i have worked with lots of children with learning disabilties, and adults. far too many children just need to be taught to respect their elders, and have some manners. they are lumped in to having attention disorders because it's easy and makes money. also a dr doesn't have to tell a parent that they are the one creating the monster because they are neglecting their duty to their child.

as for arm chair guessing, not a chance. it's something i've worked with on and off for 23yrs. and just so you know; alot of what you have explained about your son is exactly what my son was like when younger. however, he was brought up with manners, taught to respect his elders, taught it's wrong to be disruptive just because you are having a hard time. he did not have drugs, he did have alot of support through our dr, his school (which i had to fight like a bitch to get), and a child psyc. he could quite easily have been diagnosed with adhd, but he doesn't have that. in fact no-one was quite sure what he has. asperger's was suggested, as was mild autism, but he doesn't show enough signs to be truely classified in those two groups. he was starved of oxygen when born as he was born with the cord around his neck, and he got rather stessed during a long hard labour. he still has problems now, but he has learnt how to deal with them.

so, like i said, i'm not saying that it never occures, i'm saying that alot of the time it's bullshit and down to bad parenting....as well as being let down by the system because it's easier.

needles


My son does have Asperger's as well as the ADHD. I'm glad your son was able to cope with a combination of counselling and social reinforcement. I would very much like to be able to do the same with my own son. He has been taken off the vyvance and carbamazepine before, both had disastrous results.

I'll retract the armchair guessing and replace it with, generalisms make unfair/inaccurate labels. If CC has proven one thing time and again, slapping a label on a group is detrimental to the individuals, and not wholly representative.

I'll agree that the system generally fails in almost every aspect where ADHD and autism is concerned (at least it does in Canada). That puts more on parents, not less; and then scapegoating the parents who don't have that support is unfair. There will always be idiots who just shouldn't have kids, let alone handle ones with mental issues. That doesn't strike me as the majority, however, and is certainly not indicative of the people I know in the Niagara Region where I live.


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RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 10:06:00 AM   
needlesandpins


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Status: offline 		the trouble is RM is that you are putting your own lables on my opinions/knowledge. nothing i have said is inaccurate, or unfair. it's true. i am talking as a mother with a child who has problems, and was at first ignored as having nothing wrong, but just being lazy, and/or being unintelligent. then he was labled as having a problem, but pushed to one side and ignored by his school. i really do understand the struggle, and fight parents have to go through with children that do have real problems.

however, the blanket diagnosis pisses me off as it trivialises what the genuine children, and parents are going through. i think that this blanket cover stops true progression in studying the problems, and helping the genuine cases. instead of drugs being dished out to kids they should send parents on courses to learn how to teach their kids boundaries, and routine in their lives. all this 'let tarquin express himself how he wishes' is exactly what sets the ball rolling. it pisses me off when i see a dog in charge of the household, and it pisses me off when i see some little brat in charge of adults.

there will always be genuine cases, and there will continue to be a vast amount who are being failed by their parents, and the professionals taking a quick cash route with the drug trolly.

i understand your defenciveness, but it doesn't stop what i am saying being true in alot of cases. maybe if a was a parent of a 'normal' child with no experience at all you'd be more justified in what you are saying against me. however, that is not the case.

needles

needles

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RE: Baby monkeys develop autism symptoms after obtainin... - 11/27/2012 11:20:23 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

the trouble is RM is that you are putting your own lables on my opinions/knowledge. nothing i have said is inaccurate, or unfair. it's true. i am talking as a mother with a child who has problems, and was at first ignored as having nothing wrong, but just being lazy, and/or being unintelligent. then he was labled as having a problem, but pushed to one side and ignored by his school. i really do understand the struggle, and fight parents have to go through with children that do have real problems.

however, the blanket diagnosis pisses me off as it trivialises what the genuine children, and parents are going through. i think that this blanket cover stops true progression in studying the problems, and helping the genuine cases. instead of drugs being dished out to kids they should send parents on courses to learn how to teach their kids boundaries, and routine in their lives. all this 'let tarquin express himself how he wishes' is exactly what sets the ball rolling. it pisses me off when i see a dog in charge of the household, and it pisses me off when i see some little brat in charge of adults.

there will always be genuine cases, and there will continue to be a vast amount who are being failed by their parents, and the professionals taking a quick cash route with the drug trolly.

i understand your defenciveness, but it doesn't stop what i am saying being true in alot of cases. maybe if a was a parent of a 'normal' child with no experience at all you'd be more justified in what you are saying against me. however, that is not the case.

needles

needles


I am extremely fortunate in that both of my kids are "normal" (whatever that is. lol) and my heart goes out to all those who have genuinely problematic kids in one way or another as I know in myself that I probably wouldn't be able to cope with them.
Kudos to RM, needles, and others on here for their patience and perseverence.

But to take up the point that needles is saying in that there are many kids (certainly here in the UK) where they are just left to run riot with virtually no parental control whatsoever. The parent(s) convince the family GP that they deserve the title of ADD or ADHD and claim lots of disability benefits on the back of that.

Perfect case in point is my immediate neighbour...
She has already said that because she had a very strict upbringing that she would not chastise her kids in any way. They are nothing more than unruly terrors that nobody would want to be near.
They call her all the names under the sun (including the C-word, frequently) if she tries to get them to behave. She is often refered to as a bitch, a whore, a c**t, and every other derogatory word you can think of just in their 'normal' turn of phrase and everyday speech.
They are no better when speaking with anyone else. They are also very LOUD! They shout and scream at anyone and everyone they see - I don't think they even know the meaning of 'quiet' and they communicate everything at 120 decibels or more.
Their normal speech is 90% swear words - and not of the mild variety either.
She has convinced her GP that they are ADHD and claims almost £400 a week just for their condition.
She recently had a visit from the social services and someone from the housing people about the noise and behaviour/language of her kids and miraculously, we have barely heard a peep from any of them in the last few weeks - I think there have been too many complaints from other people living in the street.
Genuine sufferers don't just suddenly shut up; which makes me believe she is just one of those lazy parents who are playing the system for every penny they can get.
How old these monsters?? They are 5, 6 and 8, all by different fathers!!!

I'm not saying there aren't any genuine cases but I think there are too many (usually single mums) that are jumping on the band-wagon using the ADD/ADHD label to excuse their lack of parenting skills. Also, too many doctors not bothering to get the kids properly tested for the condition and just throw pills at the problem. It's just an easy way out.

I think that every ADD/ADHD claim should be refered to a specialist in the field to ascertain if the kids are really suffering from the condition (or something similar) or whether it's just a lazy parent that can't be assed to control their kids.

Just my

(in reply to needlesandpins)
Profile   Post #: 160
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