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RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/9/2012 9:02:35 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		It adds emphasis, and again, it I believe it adds context, i.e., the old style, "Himself", or the lord of the manor, "He" would be capitalized, as would "She", the mistress of the house - the scullery maid would be "she". "Her" is more third person, and I don't believe would be capitalized, and would always be "her", unless it is referring to personal possessions or traits possibly: "Her <chingas/s>", but this is mainly a hunch, again, it would simply connote her status without having to give her the long title.

Words are defined by usage, and mostly, I find any hint of casteism that isn't merely a depreciated, archaic classicalism, to be offensive, and in case where I suspected it, I might be inclined towards mockery.

I'm an American, fuck you.

< Message edited by xssve -- 11/9/2012 9:03:10 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 12:26:41 PM   
trelaford


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford

Just stop it already. Really, it's just silly.




IMO this is you trying to impose your will on everyone who posts in this forum which is even sillier than them capping or not capping personal pronouns.





Now, now. Let's be clear here - my intent was to poke fun, not to impose my will. After all, I didn't move that those who capitalize personal pronouns be banned - that, in contrast, would indeed represent an attempt to impose my will.

No, I merely called the practice silly - and I was, of course, thoroughly and undeniably correct in doing so.


(in reply to TheLilSquaw)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 1:55:43 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford


Now, now. Let's be clear here - my intent was to poke fun, not to impose my will. After all, I didn't move that those who capitalize personal pronouns be banned - that, in contrast, would indeed represent an attempt to impose my will.

No, I merely called the practice silly - and I was, of course, thoroughly and undeniably correct in doing so.




Good grief, for someone who put so much thought into this post, you seriously have no clue. First off, the practice of capitalization was merely a short-cut to knowing who was dominant or submissive when speaking through print medium. You could tell at a glance what orientation they were by the upper or lower case of their name or personal reference. Not for respect, not dominance by proxy. This is how the old schoolers learned, and most still carry on this today. To call it silly is insulting as it mocks how they learned. You personally might feel it, but decorum dictates keeping certain opinions to yourself. No one is forcing you to engage in it

(in reply to trelaford)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 2:18:26 PM   
trelaford


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/31/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford


Now, now. Let's be clear here - my intent was to poke fun, not to impose my will. After all, I didn't move that those who capitalize personal pronouns be banned - that, in contrast, would indeed represent an attempt to impose my will.

No, I merely called the practice silly - and I was, of course, thoroughly and undeniably correct in doing so.




Good grief, for someone who put so much thought into this post, you seriously have no clue. First off, the practice of capitalization was merely a short-cut to knowing who was dominant or submissive when speaking through print medium. You could tell at a glance what orientation they were by the upper or lower case of their name or personal reference. Not for respect, not dominance by proxy. This is how the old schoolers learned, and most still carry on this today. To call it silly is insulting as it mocks how they learned. You personally might feel it, but decorum dictates keeping certain opinions to yourself. No one is forcing you to engage in it




A. Exactly how much thought do you think I put into this post?

(anticipating the reply - probably not much, chortle chortle)


B. As for "old-school" media vis-a-vis d/s correspondence - was it really that hard to tell? Were people particularly slow-witted in olden times? If somebody's orientation wasn't obvious from the content of what they wrote, did it really matter? Does it matter now?


C. Decorum dictates keeping these opinions to myself? Whose decorum? Not mine, not that of the half-dozen or so who have explicitly agreed with me here. Perhaps we're just not old-school enough.


D. I'm not forcing anyone not to engage in it, I'm just expressing the opinion that it is in fact silly (and finding that I'm not alone in said opinion.)


If this is a problem for you.......so be it. Your moral outrage is.....what's the word......it's hilarious to me.






< Message edited by trelaford -- 11/10/2012 2:22:01 PM >

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 3:44:32 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
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quote:


A. Exactly how much thought do you think I put into this post?

(anticipating the reply - probably not much, chortle chortle)


The fact that you made a top line forum post, and your continuing defense of the subject, proves you put thought into this

quote:


B. As for "old-school" media vis-a-vis d/s correspondence - was it really that hard to tell? Were people particularly slow-witted in olden times? If somebody's orientation wasn't obvious from the content of what they wrote, did it really matter? Does it matter now?


Yes, if you talked on a bbs chat forum in the 70s or 80s, it was hard to tell, hence why this was practiced. No pictures to speak of, hours if not days between replies, etc. The fact that you know nothing of the traditions involved speaks volumes.

quote:


C. Decorum dictates keeping these opinions to myself? Whose decorum? Not mine, not that of the half-dozen or so who have explicitly agreed with me here. Perhaps we're just not old-school enough.


Social interaction decorum. I could say your hairstyle was silly, even though it was how you've worn it that way for years. Does that sound like a public forum polite statement, hell even private one?

quote:


D. I'm not forcing anyone not to engage in it, I'm just expressing the opinion that it is in fact silly (and finding that I'm not alone in said opinion.)


You are more than welcome to have your own opinions about the world, we all have them. But when you take those opinions into a public forum, you have to recognize that others will not see things as you do. That is why you mete out what you say, i.e. decorum

quote:


If this is a problem for you.......so be it. Your moral outrage is.....what's the word......it's hilarious to me.


I don't see where you reasoned I had a moral problem with your statements, just pointing out simple facts. And I am glad you find the humor, you will do famously in conversations with others in future


(in reply to trelaford)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 4:48:22 PM   
trelaford


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline 		A. Yes it does. You still did not answer the question. Not important in any event, you've got me really thinking about this now.

B. This speaks volumes about what? My age? You list yourself as 39 years old! How were you participating in the BBS chats of the 80s, much less the 70s? More to the point, I can honestly say that in all the posts I've read on these forums, every single time the sexual orientation of the writer was relevant to the message of his/her post, it was blatantly obvious from context. So if it's not so hard for me, and it's not so hard for others (if others opine that wading through this site is impossible without the benefit of the distinctions spelled out by capitalized/uncapitalized pronouns, I'll consider bowing out of the debate), what is the point? We need to continue the tradition because you apparently did so when you were 16 years old? If the utility has been lost (and I still question whether it ever existed), what is the point? And what's so wrong with those of us who were not in our diapers on the BBS chat in '78 opining that in today's world, it is silly?


Also directly to the point, and as someone else pointed out in this thread - what is the justification for addressing a forum community (i.e. not just one's sub/slave) with the arrogance and self-importance of capitalized personal pronouns?

C. If my hairstyle was outdated and foolish, you'd be doing me a favor. If I responded, "why you oughta have seen the hairstyles back in the 80s - know your history son!" I'm sure you'd smirk, possibly even laugh at me.


D. I'm not going to hesitate to take my opinions about the world into public forums for fear that somebody will disagree or I will hurt somebody's feelings. Really, if anyone is so fragile that this is a problem for them - I dont know, I don't care. Fuck them. Fuck them in their fragile little behinds.


E. Sorry if I misinterpreted you....when somebody tells me I'm acting contrary to 'decorum' and urges me to keep such opinions to myself, it does register to my ears as moral outrage.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 4:53:56 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		There are people on here who I have talked to on the forums here for years. I still have no idea whatsoever what their gender or orientation or relationship is because I'm in a relationship and I just don't really give a damn. So you must have on helluva detector to determine what they are just from what they type on the screen.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 5:16:28 PM   
trelaford


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

There are people on here who I have talked to on the forums here for years. I still have no idea whatsoever what their gender or orientation or relationship is because I'm in a relationship and I just don't really give a damn. So you must have on helluva detector to determine what they are just from what they type on the screen.




If you couldn't tell from context and didn't care enough to ask, did it matter to you? Was it important in the context of your correspondence?

This is my point; in a discussion like the one in this thread, IT DOESN'T MATTER unless somebody is explicitly trying to give a specific POV on the matter at hand. Hence my comment about relevance.

A question for you - you list yourself as a slave (this was not relevant to my previous point, but it is relevant to the following): how would you feel if I wrote to you and capitalized all the "Me's" and "My's" in my message? I'm certainly not your master, and you're certainly not my slave - would it be appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not? (This is a case where I am indeed looking for a specific POV on the matter.)



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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 5:27:24 PM   
OsideGirl


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Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford

A question for you - you list yourself as a slave (this was not relevant to my previous point, but it is relevant to the following): how would you feel if I wrote to you and capitalized all the "Me's" and "My's" in my message? I'm certainly not your master, and you're certainly not my slave - would it be appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not? (This is a case where I am indeed looking for a specific POV on the matter.)


I'm obviously not LW, but I can say that from my POV, it wouldn't matter to me unless that person expected me to follow their protocol.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 5:40:08 PM   
trelaford


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Joined: 10/31/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford

A question for you - you list yourself as a slave (this was not relevant to my previous point, but it is relevant to the following): how would you feel if I wrote to you and capitalized all the "Me's" and "My's" in my message? I'm certainly not your master, and you're certainly not my slave - would it be appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not? (This is a case where I am indeed looking for a specific POV on the matter.)


I'm obviously not LW, but I can say that from my POV, it wouldn't matter to me unless that person expected me to follow their protocol.




OK - do you have any preference whatsoever on the matter?

If this is simply an archaic way of distinguishing between subs/slaves and masters, as seems to have been established, why should you address anyone but your master (or be addressed by anyone but your master) in this manner? Wouldn't it be disrespectful to your master? To you?

If you don't think so, that's fine, I'm not trying to speak for anybody here.

To me, it just reeks of insecurity on the part of the dominant. That's just my interpretation.

Again, I can't speak to how things were on the BBS chats in the 70s. Maybe it was life-and-death necessity. I doubt it, but I just can't be sure.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 6:09:35 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford

A question for you - you list yourself as a slave (this was not relevant to my previous point, but it is relevant to the following): how would you feel if I wrote to you and capitalized all the "Me's" and "My's" in my message? I'm certainly not your master, and you're certainly not my slave - would it be appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not? (This is a case where I am indeed looking for a specific POV on the matter.)


I'm obviously not LW, but I can say that from my POV, it wouldn't matter to me unless that person expected me to follow their protocol.




OK - do you have any preference whatsoever on the matter?

If this is simply an archaic way of distinguishing between subs/slaves and masters, as seems to have been established, why should you address anyone but your master (or be addressed by anyone but your master) in this manner? Wouldn't it be disrespectful to your master? To you?

If you don't think so, that's fine, I'm not trying to speak for anybody here.

To me, it just reeks of insecurity on the part of the dominant. That's just my interpretation.

Again, I can't speak to how things were on the BBS chats in the 70s. Maybe it was life-and-death necessity. I doubt it, but I just can't be sure.



I don't think it's disrespectful to myself or Master if someone feels the desire to capitalize those words. Where it would become disrespectful would be if they expected/demanded me to do the same. They don't have the authority over me to request or demand that.

Personally, I think it's kind of a silly internet affectation, but not nearly as silly as slashy speak or the random capital people who type liKe ThiS.

I don't really view it as insecurity. To me it just means that they came into this through the internet. Insecurity, IMO, comes into it when the demand is made that others follow suit. The same as some guy that thinks that I should address him as "Sir" in the first email.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 11/10/2012 6:11:54 PM >

_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 6:26:06 PM   
trelaford


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline 		A silly internet affectation??? Shame on you, learn your history!!!


Seriously - thanks for sharing your perspective.


I'm afraid I won't be able to check back in for the next day or two - should be interesting to see how this develops in the meantime.






(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 8:13:36 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:


A. Yes it does. You still did not answer the question. Not important in any event, you've got me really thinking about this now.


Ignored, as I did answer your question. You still continue to defend your initial post, proves this all the more

quote:


B. This speaks volumes about what? My age? You list yourself as 39 years old! How were you participating in the BBS chats of the 80s, much less the 70s? More to the point, I can honestly say that in all the posts I've read on these forums, every single time the sexual orientation of the writer was relevant to the message of his/her post, it was blatantly obvious from context. So if it's not so hard for me, and it's not so hard for others (if others opine that wading through this site is impossible without the benefit of the distinctions spelled out by capitalized/uncapitalized pronouns, I'll consider bowing out of the debate), what is the point? We need to continue the tradition because you apparently did so when you were 16 years old? If the utility has been lost (and I still question whether it ever existed), what is the point? And what's so wrong with those of us who were not in our diapers on the BBS chat in '78 opining that in today's world, it is silly?


Actually I am 43 now, but I made no comment about age. Just your lack of knowledge on the subject you consider silly. The fact that some of us were typing over modem connected by phone lines made it easy to recognize orientation. And yes, I have been doing this since I was 17. My point, again, is that whatever your views on the subject, those of us who learned the convention don't think it silly. For you to call it so in public is in bad form. I don't really care how you feel, but calling others beliefs silly is insulting in any venue

quote:


Also directly to the point, and as someone else pointed out in this thread - what is the justification for addressing a forum community (i.e. not just one's sub/slave) with the arrogance and self-importance of capitalized personal pronouns?


Again ignored as I have already stated capitalization had nothing to do with arrogance or self importance. Some people just learned it that way, and choose to continue.

quote:


C. If my hairstyle was outdated and foolish, you'd be doing me a favor. If I responded, "why you oughta have seen the hairstyles back in the 80s - know your history son!" I'm sure you'd smirk, possibly even laugh at me.


You have a strange way of viewing polite conversation between strangers. In no way is it appropriate to belittle or mock someone for what they believe, in public. If you know the person, or are in private, insult away. But there are accepted ways of speaking to people whom you do not know

quote:


D. I'm not going to hesitate to take my opinions about the world into public forums for fear that somebody will disagree or I will hurt somebody's feelings. Really, if anyone is so fragile that this is a problem for them - I dont know, I don't care. Fuck them. Fuck them in their fragile little behinds.


And this is why you will have lots of problems talking to people. You can whole heartedly believe in "Fuck the World", but taking that attitude with strangers will get you into trouble. People get very defensive when someone they don't know insults them, whether real or perceived. Hence why decorum dictates a civil tone when discussing things in public. But hey, you either learn from others or learn from doing


(in reply to trelaford)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/10/2012 9:13:56 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: trelaford


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

There are people on here who I have talked to on the forums here for years. I still have no idea whatsoever what their gender or orientation or relationship is because I'm in a relationship and I just don't really give a damn. So you must have on helluva detector to determine what they are just from what they type on the screen.




If you couldn't tell from context and didn't care enough to ask, did it matter to you? Was it important in the context of your correspondence?

This is my point; in a discussion like the one in this thread, IT DOESN'T MATTER unless somebody is explicitly trying to give a specific POV on the matter at hand. Hence my comment about relevance.

A question for you - you list yourself as a slave (this was not relevant to my previous point, but it is relevant to the following): how would you feel if I wrote to you and capitalized all the "Me's" and "My's" in my message? I'm certainly not your master, and you're certainly not my slave - would it be appropriate? If so, why? If not, why not? (This is a case where I am indeed looking for a specific POV on the matter.)






It wouldn't bother me one bit. I probably wouldn't even notice it. Why should it bother me? It's online. I find it funny when people get upset over online stuff. It makes no sense to me.



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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/11/2012 7:23:38 AM   
plushiecat


Posts: 109
Joined: 12/18/2005
Status: offline 		First off, why does orientation even matter if you are just having a conversation with someone? I don't give a rat's behind if a person is dom or sub if I choose to speak to him/her. That person will get treated like everyone else. Not my dom = orientation doesn't matter, and they won't receive some affected title from me either. Likely that's not 'old school' either...and I have been around since the days of BBSes and dial-ups. I fully agree with trelaford. I find it arrogant, and full of self-puffery. *shrug* Not a popular view? So what. I don't believe in not sharing a view because its not popular. "Social interaction decorum" means I will treat a person politely and respectfully---as I do *everyone* else, until the person gives me cause not to. Further, stating something is silly (like capping pronouns in mid-sentence) is hardly the same as stating that a person is dumb for doing it. If a person wants to do it? Fine, whatever. As others have said, don't expect me to, or then I will laugh at you.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/11/2012 8:53:41 AM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: plushiecat

First off, why does orientation even matter if you are just having a conversation with someone? I don't give a rat's behind if a person is dom or sub if I choose to speak to him/her. That person will get treated like everyone else. Not my dom = orientation doesn't matter, and they won't receive some affected title from me either. Likely that's not 'old school' either...and I have been around since the days of BBSes and dial-ups. I fully agree with trelaford. I find it arrogant, and full of self-puffery. *shrug* Not a popular view? So what. I don't believe in not sharing a view because its not popular. "Social interaction decorum" means I will treat a person politely and respectfully---as I do *everyone* else, until the person gives me cause not to. Further, stating something is silly (like capping pronouns in mid-sentence) is hardly the same as stating that a person is dumb for doing it. If a person wants to do it? Fine, whatever. As others have said, don't expect me to, or then I will laugh at you.



Another one... If you were around during the BBSs and dialups, and actually talking in kink oriented forums, then this statement is quite bogus. If you haven't, and are making these on assumption, then you are as bad as trelaford. It doesn't matter two copper pennies what you believe, its what the people you are talking to believe. Go into a christian religious forum and start a thread about how god does not exist, say in big bold print god is silly, if you don't believe that statement. This proves that no matter how you feel someone's practice is, if you speak out on it in a public forum there are things one just doesn't do. But go ahead, prove me wrong. See if they wouldn't find it insulting

(in reply to plushiecat)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/11/2012 9:20:45 AM   
plushiecat


Posts: 109
Joined: 12/18/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, yeah, I was on some of those BBSes. What *is* bogus is that you are comparing two utterly different things. At NO point did I state that capping of pronouns didn't exist (to attempt to further your rather silly God metaphor). Sure it does. And, as has also been shown. I am hardly the only one that feels it is silly. People can believe what they want to. I happen to believe it is silly. I'm not jumping on you and 'feeling insulted' because you disagree with me. You are welcome to if you want to, but that wasn't my intention. It is a forum. Opinions will be shared, for and against things. It's quite simple, really. If there were no dissenting views this place would boil down to little more than an old AOL board with the hordes of 'me too!-ers'. No thank you. You go have fun with that. I find it's silly. I always have, and have been on boards, IRC, and BBSes for quite some time, likely as long as you have.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/11/2012 1:34:54 PM   
trelaford


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


Actually I am 43 now, but I made no comment about age. Just your lack of knowledge on the subject you consider silly. The fact that some of us were typing over modem connected by phone lines made it easy to recognize orientation. And yes, I have been doing this since I was 17. My point, again, is that whatever your views on the subject, those of us who learned the convention don't think it silly. For you to call it so in public is in bad form. I don't really care how you feel, but calling others beliefs silly is insulting in any venue




Maybe you should worry less about what constitutes polite conversation online (and imposing your views re: 'decorum' on those who disagree) and show respect by editing your posts and expressing yourself more clearly. I don't know what your second and third sentences here mean and so it's difficult for me to form a response. (I have an inkling that your third sentence expresses the exact opposite of your intended meaning, but surely it would be bad form on my part to assume so without confirmation from the writer.)


Bottom line, if being challenged with different viewpoints is a problem for you - the problem is yours, and I very politely and humbly suggest that maybe this is the wrong place for you if a small disagreement such as this one is too much for you to take. You call it bad form - fine, that's your right - I call it an honest expression of a completely reasonable opinion, and I offer no apologies.


Anyway, plushiecat put it better than I could. Thanks, plushie.

< Message edited by trelaford -- 11/11/2012 1:45:56 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/11/2012 1:55:26 PM   
MsLadySue


Posts: 2254
Joined: 12/18/2004
Status: offline 		nm



< Message edited by MsLadySue -- 11/11/2012 2:01:58 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Capitalization of personal pronouns - 11/11/2012 2:06:08 PM   
trelaford


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsLadySue

Op, this one's for you.






Is it not obvious? My point is that the practice is silly and outdated at best, arrogant at worst.


Is this a topic of urgent, life-and-death importance? No it isn't - correct me if I'm wrong; I thought this was a forum for off-topic casual banter. If only issues of world-historical implications are to be discussed here, I apologize and ask that this thread be deleted immediately.

(in reply to MsLadySue)
Profile   Post #: 60
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