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Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 5:16:17 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Solar? Curious how people view it.

Also, post your state and how much you pay per kw.
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RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 6:33:14 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Im in the TVA area. I don't have a power bill handy but I have some of the best rates in the nation because of the fact that we have a lot of hydroelectric.
My plan, if I can get ahead cashwise is to install about 4000 SF of solar on a south facing roof of my commercial building. Payback is now about 7 years and the rest is gravy.
As for how I feel about solar, lots of folks have heard it before but here I go again.
Oil is finite. We wont run out this year or in 10 years or even 40 but we WILL run out.
Civilization as we know it depends on petrochemicals. No oil, no civilization. There are just too many cool things we can do with oil that don't include burning it.
This country has the brains and industrial base to develop a program to get us mostly independent of oil based energy within a decade (Think NASA moon program).
If we directed our national will toward someting like this, it would have several consequences.

1. Between Solar, wind and nuclear (fission and fusion) we would obtain energy independence plus hundreds of thousands of American jobs.
2. We would once again be the premier technological/industrial force on the planet.
3. We would have enough oil within our borders to maintain our lifestyle for centuries or millenia, not just decades.
4. We could let those people in the Middle East who have been sodomizing us over an oil barrel for the last 60 years go back to eating dirt and rocks and cheerfully slaughtering each other as they have done for centuries. FUKUM

What stands in our way?....Exxon/Mobile, Shell, BP and their Billions.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 6:38:45 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, here is the pricing guide from Southern California Edison.

Five-Tier Price Structure Sample* Tier
Cents per kWh

Tier 1 Tier 2 Tier 3 Tier 4 Tier 5

13¢ 16¢ 24¢ 28¢ 31¢


I like solar energy. I'm not a huge fan of the industrialization of the countryside, or running high-tension power line towers across every hill, but I love parking lots covered with shade structures, and panels on top. The southern exposure on this house was a selling point, and I'm sure the panels will go up there at some point, but it isn't there yet for us.

We had a salesman by the house a couple weeks ago to talk about doing it, but when he ran the numbers, he saw that we weren't going to be interested. Our bill just doesn't run high enough, and there is zero benefit in buying before they will be a cost effective upgrade.

*tried to fix the formatting on the chart, but I figure the smart folks will figure it out.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 11/13/2012 6:42:09 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 7:34:36 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Solar? Curious how people view it.

The Myth of Renewable Energy

• Solar power. While sunlight is renewable -- for at least another four billion years -- photovoltaic panels are not. Nor is desert groundwater, used in steam turbines at some solar-thermal installations. Even after being redesigned to use air-cooled condensers that will reduce its water consumption by 90 percent, California's Blythe Solar Power Project, which will be the world's largest when it opens in 2013, will require an estimated 600 acre-feet of groundwater annually for washing mirrors, replenishing feedwater, and cooling auxiliary equipment...

Unfortunately, "renewable energy" is a meaningless term with no established standards. Like an emperor parading around without clothes, it gets a free pass, because nobody dares to confront an inconvenient truth: None of our current energy technologies are truly renewable, at least not in the way they are currently being deployed. We haven't discovered any form of energy that is completely clean and recyclable, and the notion that such an energy source can ever be found is a mirage.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/13/2012 7:36:33 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 7:35:55 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/13/2012 7:36:17 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 7:42:08 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Solar? Curious how people view it.

The Myth of Renewable Energy

• Solar power. While sunlight is renewable -- for at least another four billion years -- photovoltaic panels are not. Nor is desert groundwater, used in steam turbines at some solar-thermal installations. Even after being redesigned to use air-cooled condensers that will reduce its water consumption by 90 percent, California's Blythe Solar Power Project, which will be the world's largest when it opens in 2013, will require an estimated 600 acre-feet of groundwater annually for washing mirrors, replenishing feedwater, and cooling auxiliary equipment...

Unfortunately, "renewable energy" is a meaningless term with no established standards. Like an emperor parading around without clothes, it gets a free pass, because nobody dares to confront an inconvenient truth: None of our current energy technologies are truly renewable, at least not in the way they are currently being deployed. We haven't discovered any form of energy that is completely clean and recyclable, and the notion that such an energy source can ever be found is a mirage.

K.


From your link.

"Even dams are typically designed to last only about 50 years."

HUH? The Dam closes to my house was built in 1912. Concrete structures typically gain strength for the first century.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 7:50:14 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Solar? Curious how people view it.
Also, post your state and how much you pay per kw.


Responding from the Glass Capital of the World (or at least it used to be; not sure anymore), and one of the leading solar manufacturing and research areas, solar energy is part of the answer. There are many different forms of solar energy, though. I wish my house was a N/S facing house, but it isn't. I have essentially no South-facing roof area, and that side of the house has a lot of shade from trees (neighbors and my own). I'm still interested in using what space I do have, though. I'm looking at using my rooftop for possible solar water heating. I'm also considering rigging up a solar heater to heat some sort of liquid and then circulating it as a driveway heating system to make snow control easier. There's also a possibility of using solar to heat either air or a transfer liquid to help heat the house in the winter.

My electrical cost is $0.054630/KWH. The mix of electric generation is nuke and coal (both clean and dirty) with some backup of oil-fired.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 7:51:45 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

"Even dams are typically designed to last only about 50 years."

HUH? The Dam closes to my house was built in 1912. Concrete structures typically gain strength for the first century.

Dams can last for centuries, but not without expensive maintenance.

The average age of America’s 80,000 dams is 51 years. More than 2,000 dams near population centers are in need of repair, according to statistics released this month by the Association of State Dam Safety Officials.

Last year, 140 dams were fixed, but inspectors discovered 368 more that need help. That’s why the American Society of Civil Engineers gave our dams a grade of "D" in its 2009 report on the nation’s infrastructure. There are just too many aging dams and too few safety inspectors...

The Association of State Dam Safety Officials estimate that $16 billion would be needed to fix all high-hazard dams... the number of high-hazard dams has increased from less than 9,000 in 2001 to more than 10,000 now.

Link

Note: that "now" was in 2009.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/13/2012 7:53:20 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 7:55:46 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

"Even dams are typically designed to last only about 50 years."

HUH? The Dam closes to my house was built in 1912. Concrete structures typically gain strength for the first century.

Dams can last for centuries, but not without expensive maintenance.

The average age of America’s 80,000 dams is 51 years. More than 2,000 dams near population centers are in need of repair, according to statistics released this month by the Association of State Dam Safety Officials.

Last year, 140 dams were fixed, but inspectors discovered 368 more that need help. That’s why the American Society of Civil Engineers gave our dams a grade of "D" in its 2009 report on the nation’s infrastructure. There are just too many aging dams and too few safety inspectors...

The Association of State Dam Safety Officials estimate that $16 billion would be needed to fix all high-hazard dams... the number of high-hazard dams has increased from less than 9,000 in 2001 to more than 10,000 now.

Link

Note: that "now" was in 2009.

K.

That sounds more like it. When I saw the "Even dams are typically designed to last only about 50 years.", the first thought that went thru my head was "What the FUCK does the author know?"

They didnt say 50 years without maint, they just said 50 years. That's basically saying after 50 years, it's toast.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:26:12 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
"Even dams are typically designed to last only about 50 years."
HUH? The Dam closes to my house was built in 1912. Concrete structures typically gain strength for the first century.

Dams can last for centuries, but not without expensive maintenance.
The average age of America’s 80,000 dams is 51 years. More than 2,000 dams near population centers are in need of repair, according to statistics released this month by the Association of State Dam Safety Officials.
Last year, 140 dams were fixed, but inspectors discovered 368 more that need help. That’s why the American Society of Civil Engineers gave our dams a grade of "D" in its 2009 report on the nation’s infrastructure. There are just too many aging dams and too few safety inspectors...
The Association of State Dam Safety Officials estimate that $16 billion would be needed to fix all high-hazard dams... the number of high-hazard dams has increased from less than 9,000 in 2001 to more than 10,000 now.
Link
Note: that "now" was in 2009.
K.


Too bad none of the dams that need fixed 3 years ago were "shovel-ready."

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:34:24 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
That sounds more like it. When I saw the "Even dams are typically designed to last only about 50 years.", the first thought that went thru my head was "What the FUCK does the author know?"

They didnt say 50 years without maint, they just said 50 years. That's basically saying after 50 years, it's toast.

You've never owned a house with a basement or a swimming pool, have you.

K.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:38:48 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		The lifespan of dams is less the dam, than the rate of sediment deposit which tends to reduce their capacity.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:42:54 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Solar right now, at least in California can be had for .26 a kw, flat rate for 20 years.. That is a zero down lease.

Buying it outright it can be had for $4/6 a kw.

Considering panels have a useful life of 20/30 years, that is a lot better for a homeoner than buying all their energy at retail.

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:43:49 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don't think solar is very efficient, at least for large scale generation. I takes far too much room for the return in power.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:47:54 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Google and Apple just sunk nearly $700,000,000 into powering their operations with solar.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:54:39 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		I don't know what our KW rate is without a search.

Here in east San Diego county, we're prime for solar...and we're planning on installing on our house eventually.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 8:56:33 PM   
switchdavid69


Posts: 53
Joined: 11/7/2012
Status: offline 		Works ok when the sun is out. Not so well in Wisconsin when it is cloudy in the coldest months of the year.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 9:01:04 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Now power a medium to large city and see how much real estate it takes. hmmmm...$700,000,000... just a little steep don't you think for mass generation of power?

Other means of generation are more efficient...take less room and are far more economical...At least right now but new innovation in the field may change everything.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 9:09:52 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Solar right now, at least in California can be had for .26 a kw, flat rate for 20 years.. That is a zero down lease.




That sounds like the number our salesman had. The thing is, we already live an energy efficient enough lifestyle that we almost never even get into the tier 3 range of comparable cost to that, much less the tier 4 and 5 pricing where solar is already cheaper. It's only a matter of time, of course, before those utility rates rise, and adding panels becomes the good choice. By then, the cost of solar may have come down a bit lower, and the technology will certainly have advanced.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 9:11:39 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I don't know what our KW rate is without a search.

Here in east San Diego county, we're prime for solar...and we're planning on installing on our house eventually.


I grew up in Lakeside...

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 20
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