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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 9:18:46 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen... if it cost me $27,000 could the local grocery store afford it?

Look I do believe in the next ten years new advances in solar power and the continued reduction in cell reliability size and cost will make it economical. Just not now.

As a side note I wonder how utility donations to politicians have and will in the future slow alternate energy advances? It seems to me if cheap free power generation becomes readily available it would destroy profits for them.

The above is why we as Americans seem to be always a step behind more progressive nations.

But if the Federal Government tries to subsidize alternate energy directly they will be opposed by the Republican party…so no hope there in the near future.

Butch

If it reduced their draw by 25% or more especially during the highest cost part of the day? You bet they could.

You're obessing over a very high estimate you got from someone. I pointed you to home depot where they sell gear that would produce a significant chunk of your power usage for around $10k of materials. And that stuff has warranties of 10+ years and is marketed as needing no/little maintenance. getting the installation done shouldn't add 15k in costs.

you say you drew 1000kW/hrs. last month. This unit costs with mounting hardware right about 10K and should produce between 2kW/hr and 5kW/hr per year. So it would reduce your bill by between 1/6th and 1/2 with a 10 year warranty for all the material and at least 90% power output so it is reasonable to figure that as the life of the panels. The question becomes can you get it installed for less than 17k (including removing the trees). At the full 27k you would need to save $225/month on electricity to break even. So look at your bill and figure it out.

However unless you live in a huge old house 1000kW/hr a month seems like a pretty high draw. Maybe get some LED's or CFL's and think about getting more/better insulation.

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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 9:44:13 AM   
SimplyMichael


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1,000kw is a hell of a lot of energy. Do you have an all electric house?

You still havent posted how much that electricity is costing you and is it one rate or a tier?

If you lived in CA, you would be buying most of,your energy at $.35. Your bill would be around $230. You would be paying $70 for your first 450kw and $160 for 550kw. That second half of your need is the smart play to do with solar. Combine that with Pacific Gas & Elec announced 15% rate hike and an average increase of 6% a year...

So, my company would lease a 20 year, all maint inc system for a FLAT 20 year rate of around $140. So next year, PG&E is at $184...your bill would still be $140... no deposit, nada. Or buy a $30,000 system, get $9,000 back from the feds.

Either way makes more sense than being exposed to energy costs and inflation.


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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 9:50:59 AM   
SchrodingerSock


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Scotland

Solar out-put fuk all kilo watt hour - damn u sun
Wind - 2574 MW of installed capacity as of April 2011

25% - A quarter of all Europe’s wind energy crosses the Scottish landmass and its surrounding seas
i forget how much we generated in 2011 as a % of our 5 million population 20ish % i think


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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 9:54:39 AM   
kdsub


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Maybe so...but I believe if it were as economical as you are making out to be it would already be main stream. No need for me to comment further because i will readily admit i am far from an expert.

I do know this...at my age and as cheap as energy is here in Missouri it would not pay me to outlay even $10,000 and expect to recoup the money in my lifetime...maybe i am just chicken to give it a chance.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 10:05:54 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Butch, your attitude is exactly why more dont,go solar. However, if you areaying less than $.20 per kilowatt it doesnt make sense and your production there isnt all that good.

As a side not, here is a map of solar in San Francisco...20 megawatts of solar and will double in the next two years.
Solar in SF

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 10:18:56 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Some good discussions about solar energy.

But, I don't think it will ever become 'mainstream' for most people.
Firstly, most of us don't live in a sensible enough climate to make it pay.
Secondly, if it became too popular and cheap enough for the masses, some politition will make a law banning it or some huge energy company will buy the patent and shelve it.

Does anyone remember the car engine designed to run on nothing but water and made of some sort of self-lubricating plastic??
It was featured on a program here called 'Tomorrows World' in the 60's.
It was supposed to almost eradicate the dependence on fossil fuel and make motoring affordable to the masses.
What happened to that idea? It got bought out by an oil company and the patent was deliberately shelved indefinitely.
Why? because it was more profitable to buy the idea and make $zillions on oil sales.

Then there was the tyre that was invented that wouldn't harm someone if they got run over - even by a mega-heavy truck (semi to our US cousins).
What happened to it? The patent was bought by a tyre/rubber company and shelved.


In a utopian world, it would be nice for every home to have solar and wind/wave energy and save everyone a fortune.
The power companies won't ever let it become too popular and neither would any government who likes the tax revenues the power companies pay them.
If you are going to have more renewable energy sources, the masses will only get it through the power companies who will still regulate the price and make huge profits.



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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 10:37:06 AM   
SimplyMichael


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The cat is out,of the bag and the world has changed, energy is a strategic asset, that is why China is investing trillions, Google and Apple are leveraging it.

The goal with solar and wind isnt to power everyone, its to produce power where it is most effective. Reduction of peak power demands and that is why germany now produces over 20% of their energy from solat.

Here is a grossly simplified way power is produced.

  • baseline is made with large nuke, coil, natural gas,plants. Cheap but inflexible
  • mid demand with smaller natural gas plants than can be turned on and off.
  • peak load uses gas turbine jet engines to produce energy for more than utilities sell it for.


That is why electricity at night is si cheap, pg&e pumps water uphill. During the day they run that same water downhill to generate mid level power.

Solar generates energy during peak demand and for thst use it rocks.

As for solar getting cheaper or better technologies just around the cirner? Apple and Google bet that there isnt...want to bet against those two on a tech issue?

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 10:45:51 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Butch, your attitude is exactly why more dont,go solar



Michael I don't mean it as a dismissive or disdainful attitude...more a practical attitude at my age...at least for me.

If I were younger I would be much more likely to make an outlay when I had years to recoup it… Just not now.

I am all for development and use of alternate energy sources.

Butch



< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/15/2012 10:46:58 AM >


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 10:55:19 AM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Butch, your attitude is exactly why more dont,go solar



Michael I don't mean it as a dismissive or disdainful attitude...more a practical attitude at my age...at least for me.

If I were younger I would be much more likely to make an outlay when I had years to recoup it… Just not now.

I am all for development and use of alternate energy sources.

Butch




Oops, sorry, I didnt mean to sound that way. I think your rates are low so for YOU solar would be a bad idea.

I was speaking of that attitude in general. Solar is a bad idea for many and a great idea for some. Lots of valid reasons for both. Clearly, as I laid out above, your same bill in californua wiuld make a lot of sense because our energy costs more.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 11:08:51 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

DomKen... if it cost me $27,000 could the local grocery store afford it?

Probably not the grocery store itself (if leased) but the building landlord might, or the many apartment owners/landlords might as another income stream.. IF they could sell all the power to the grid at a good rate.. not sure if it would be legal to sell that power to the tenant tho, depends on laws regarding that cuz the owner/solar producer might be considered a "utility company" then.. in some areas it seems you need to be govt approved to become a utility company or some govt hoops to jump thru..

Also, if its a big industrial, commercial, residential rental complex, I expect they get a much better price than homeowners would.. I really doubt Apple & Google will pay the same retail rate for solar installs that we would...

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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 11:13:50 AM   
JeffBC


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How do I view solar power?
I see generating my own power as highly desirable given how I feel about the power companies. I have not, to date, seen any sort of solar installation that can do so at an economically attractive price point. Wind suffers similar issues. Nowadays it's not very relevant seeing as I rent.

My state?
I'm in British Columbia now so not very relevant to you. 6.5 (Canadian) cents per kilowatt hour up to 1,350 then 10.19c thereafter.

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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 11:38:24 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Germany may have 20% of energy from solar sources.

But.... how much of that is actually not in control of a power utility??

We have wind farms, both onshore and offshore.
But pretty much all of those are owned and run by some power company, not individuals.
There are some odd few people that have managed to put up their own wind turbine but they are a tiny handful. Most of those that have tried to do that in any sort of suburban/housing area has met with some very stiff opposition from immediate neighbours and the town planning councils and are frequently refused permission to erect one.

I have seen quite a lot of houses with solar panels here even though we really don't have the proper climate for it to be really as efficient as it could be.
From what I've seen in adverts here (had some leaflets dropped in the door recently), a lot of those installations appear to be in the form of heating water or producing cheaper heat in some form rather than a pure power substitution.
It's a nice idea if you own your own home, are fairly young, and have the money to pay for the installation so that you can recoup the outlay and the upkeep over a longer period of time. For the majority of people, they either rent their homes or the initial outlay is cost prohibitive even for the cheapest systems on the market.

There are plenty of solar products on the market, like solar powered garden lights and small water features, but nothing really affordable for any decent home application.


I think solar power will become a little cheaper as technology gets better at solar conversion.
Will it reach the point at where it's affordable by the masses??
I doubt it - and certainly not in my lifetime nor my children's lifetime.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 11/15/2012 11:42:38 AM >

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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 12:17:16 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Solar? Curious how people view it.


Too expensive for me at the moment, given the local level of insolation.

quote:

Also, post your state and how much you pay per kw.


My state is N/A, seeing as I live in Norway.

Probably about 7¢ per kWh.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 12:56:11 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Well, the easy peasy way right now is use more natural gas and propane, cuz we have so much of it, and fracking is releasing the stores, so thats what is gonna be concentrated on.
The American people are not going to give a fuck until it is way past time to do something about something before they do something about something. 


Has the book been closed on the safety and environmental concerns regarding fracking?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 1:09:04 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Germany may have 20% of energy from solar sources.
But.... how much of that is actually not in control of a power utility??
We have wind farms, both onshore and offshore.
But pretty much all of those are owned and run by some power company, not individuals.
There are some odd few people that have managed to put up their own wind turbine but they are a tiny handful. Most of those that have tried to do that in any sort of suburban/housing area has met with some very stiff opposition from immediate neighbours and the town planning councils and are frequently refused permission to erect one.
I have seen quite a lot of houses with solar panels here even though we really don't have the proper climate for it to be really as efficient as it could be.
From what I've seen in adverts here (had some leaflets dropped in the door recently), a lot of those installations appear to be in the form of heating water or producing cheaper heat in some form rather than a pure power substitution.
It's a nice idea if you own your own home, are fairly young, and have the money to pay for the installation so that you can recoup the outlay and the upkeep over a longer period of time. For the majority of people, they either rent their homes or the initial outlay is cost prohibitive even for the cheapest systems on the market.
There are plenty of solar products on the market, like solar powered garden lights and small water features, but nothing really affordable for any decent home application.
I think solar power will become a little cheaper as technology gets better at solar conversion.
Will it reach the point at where it's affordable by the masses??
I doubt it - and certainly not in my lifetime nor my children's lifetime.


I guess the question becomes, how much is it worth to you? How important is it to you to reduce your reliance on power companies? Even if you only go for the solar heaters (air or water), how much can that save you? Not using PV cells makes solar heating solutions a shit ton cheaper. I saw plans for a solar air heater that you install in a ground floor window in the colder months and take it out in the summer. A rough guesstimate would put the cost at <$500. It won't heat your entire house, but it can reduce the demand on your furnace. You won't get the same results, though, if you don't have an adequate location to install it, though.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 1:38:58 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Most homes here aren't built like many in the US and people only ever replace windows (nearly all double or triple glazed) when they fall out or get broken.

Also, we don't have systems here that get installed into windows - it's usually into the brickwork and they aren't designed to be removed.

And as I said, most here rent their homes and most private landlords (and certainly anything owned by social housing groups) wouldn't allow such installations.
Heck, it's bad enough convincing landlords to get a friggin shower installed let alone anything of this magnitude.

And another point - being able to warm-up one room when a good number of our homes are centrally heated would be counter-productive and wasteful.
It doesn't cost any less to turn the radiators off in one room to fit such a device if the rest of the house is being heated.
If, on the other hand, you live out in the sticks in your own property that doesn't have anything more than a single fireplace in the main room, it might make some sense. But there again you'd have to find a system that doesn't fit into a window.

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RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 3:34:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Well, the easy peasy way right now is use more natural gas and propane, cuz we have so much of it, and fracking is releasing the stores, so thats what is gonna be concentrated on.
The American people are not going to give a fuck until it is way past time to do something about something before they do something about something. 


Has the book been closed on the safety and environmental concerns regarding fracking?

No.

At present there are very bad ways of doing it, see exploding water wells in PA, and ways in which very little is known about their short term and long term problems. The newer methods are meant to be less damaging to the environment but most people who aren't in the industry still hav doubts.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 9:03:44 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Most homes here aren't built like many in the US and people only ever replace windows (nearly all double or triple glazed) when they fall out or get broken.
Also, we don't have systems here that get installed into windows - it's usually into the brickwork and they aren't designed to be removed.
And as I said, most here rent their homes and most private landlords (and certainly anything owned by social housing groups) wouldn't allow such installations.
Heck, it's bad enough convincing landlords to get a friggin shower installed let alone anything of this magnitude.
And another point - being able to warm-up one room when a good number of our homes are centrally heated would be counter-productive and wasteful.
It doesn't cost any less to turn the radiators off in one room to fit such a device if the rest of the house is being heated.
If, on the other hand, you live out in the sticks in your own property that doesn't have anything more than a single fireplace in the main room, it might make some sense. But there again you'd have to find a system that doesn't fit into a window.


It's not an issue of taking a window out, but opening it up for the device. You don't have to turn your radiators off in that room. The point is that you'll use less heating fuel because you'll be gaining some heat from the sun. You can set the solar heater in the room you use most (if possible), and allow the other rooms of the house to be cooler.

I'm going to look into a geothermal system in the Spring. Currently, my house has one thru-the-wall air conditioner, which isn't even in a room that will be used the most. If I can cool my house using a geothermal system, it's possible that I'll be capable of not using any A/C other than that.

Not every solution is a solution for everyone. The orientation of my house, the trees around me, and my location make PV cells a losing proposal at this point. Electrical rates would have to skyrocket and PV prices would have to plummet exponentially to make it likely for me to recoup my investment. Wind power may be viable, but I am limited by Township zoning laws regarding the size and placement of any wind generators.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Solar Energy - 11/16/2012 2:10:55 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It's not an issue of taking a window out, but opening it up for the device. You don't have to turn your radiators off in that room. The point is that you'll use less heating fuel because you'll be gaining some heat from the sun. You can set the solar heater in the room you use most (if possible), and allow the other rooms of the house to be cooler.

I don't know how your central heating works but in all the places I have lived over here, if I put extra heating into one room it won't make a jot of difference to the boiler (furnace) at all unless the thermostat is in that room and thus fooling it into thinking the house is warmer than the rest of it actually is and therefore not burn so much fuel because it doesn't have to produce so much heat.
In the the house we're in at the moment, each individual radiator has been set according to what each of us needs in the way of heat. If my son or daughter decides to stay away for a few days or so and they turn their radiators off, it doesn't make a single penny's difference to the boiler because it is using the thermostat (which is in the front hallway) for the overall temperature setting and the heat measured in the water pipes to determine how much heat to generate and thus how much fuel to burn.
So in essence, we save nothing at all by adding a heat source to any room except the one where the thermostat is mounted.

As far opening a window for the device, I haven't lived in any house where the windows are the same size as the windows in any other house I've lived in. Also, each window in each house I've been in is a different size to the other windows of the same house.
So, if there was a device that fitted into a window, the gaps around it would need to be filled in or the heat would escape faster than the device could generate it - thus completely negating the point of having it fitted in the first place. And, being a temporary addition and having to leave an otherwise secure window open and unlocked would also make any household insurance invalid.
No, any sort of window-mounted device just isn't feasable over here - it would have to be a permanent fixture into the brickwork and securely cemented in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I'm going to look into a geothermal system in the Spring. Currently, my house has one thru-the-wall air conditioner, which isn't even in a room that will be used the most. If I can cool my house using a geothermal system, it's possible that I'll be capable of not using any A/C other than that.

I think that's where the major difference is between where you are and our climate over here.
Unless we get an unusual heatwave, we need heating 90+% of the time, not cooling.
It's not common for people to have an A/C unit here at all except for those tiny little portable things and I would say that more than 95% of the time for those of us that do have one it wouldn't even get plugged in let alone used in ernest.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Not every solution is a solution for everyone. The orientation of my house, the trees around me, and my location make PV cells a losing proposal at this point. Electrical rates would have to skyrocket and PV prices would have to plummet exponentially to make it likely for me to recoup my investment. Wind power may be viable, but I am limited by Township zoning laws regarding the size and placement of any wind generators.

I think, if there were a sensible solar unit at an affordable price AND if we had the climate to utilise it at near full capacity, it could work for a few people here. But I can't see it working for most. For those projects I've seen on TV where they've tried to use solar and wind turbines in new eco-buildings to lower the power bills it hasn't been overly successful. You also have to think that for the most part, your return credit for pumping your excess power (if you have any) back to the utility grid is pretty pitiful this end. We aren't geared for people to be able to give power back to the grid in any sensible or usable quantity.

And like you, a lot of our by-laws prevent the erection of wind turbines so the alternatives to power from the national grid is rather limited.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Solar Energy - 11/16/2012 4:46:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It's not an issue of taking a window out, but opening it up for the device. You don't have to turn your radiators off in that room. The point is that you'll use less heating fuel because you'll be gaining some heat from the sun. You can set the solar heater in the room you use most (if possible), and allow the other rooms of the house to be cooler.

I don't know how your central heating works but in all the places I have lived over here, if I put extra heating into one room it won't make a jot of difference to the boiler (furnace) at all unless the thermostat is in that room and thus fooling it into thinking the house is warmer than the rest of it actually is and therefore not burn so much fuel because it doesn't have to produce so much heat.
In the the house we're in at the moment, each individual radiator has been set according to what each of us needs in the way of heat. If my son or daughter decides to stay away for a few days or so and they turn their radiators off, it doesn't make a single penny's difference to the boiler because it is using the thermostat (which is in the front hallway) for the overall temperature setting and the heat measured in the water pipes to determine how much heat to generate and thus how much fuel to burn.
So in essence, we save nothing at all by adding a heat source to any room except the one where the thermostat is mounted.


Whatever room the heater is in, the radiator can be turned down, reducing the heat demand from that radiator. The furnace will see less of a temperature drop, which requires less fuel to heat back up to whatever temperature it needs to keep the water. If you put the window unit in the room that is either the coldest, the one used most during the day, or the one that is kept the warmest, you reduce the demand on the furnace.

quote:

As far opening a window for the device, I haven't lived in any house where the windows are the same size as the windows in any other house I've lived in. Also, each window in each house I've been in is a different size to the other windows of the same house.
So, if there was a device that fitted into a window, the gaps around it would need to be filled in or the heat would escape faster than the device could generate it - thus completely negating the point of having it fitted in the first place. And, being a temporary addition and having to leave an otherwise secure window open and unlocked would also make any household insurance invalid.
No, any sort of window-mounted device just isn't feasable over here - it would have to be a permanent fixture into the brickwork and securely cemented in.


I don't know how often you move, but you build the unit yourself. Thus, you size it to whatever window you are putting it in. The window is only opened <12"(this works with up/down opening style windows, not necessarily side-to-side opening windows). It isn't too difficult to figure out how to secure a partially open window.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I'm going to look into a geothermal system in the Spring. Currently, my house has one thru-the-wall air conditioner, which isn't even in a room that will be used the most. If I can cool my house using a geothermal system, it's possible that I'll be capable of not using any A/C other than that.

I think that's where the major difference is between where you are and our climate over here.
Unless we get an unusual heatwave, we need heating 90+% of the time, not cooling.
It's not common for people to have an A/C unit here at all except for those tiny little portable things and I would say that more than 95% of the time for those of us that do have one it wouldn't even get plugged in let alone used in ernest.


This may not work so well for radiator heating. Geothermal units will generally give a constant 10-15ºC, so heating return air (presumably colder than what you want it to be) would be easier if your return air is lower than that. You can use this to pre-heat your water for your hot water tank (feed incoming water into a transfer "tank" so that coils of geothermal heated liquid heats it to 10-15ºC before it hits your hot water tank. This would be something you'd do to your own home, though. It's a bit invasive and pretty much requires going through walls.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Not every solution is a solution for everyone. The orientation of my house, the trees around me, and my location make PV cells a losing proposal at this point. Electrical rates would have to skyrocket and PV prices would have to plummet exponentially to make it likely for me to recoup my investment. Wind power may be viable, but I am limited by Township zoning laws regarding the size and placement of any wind generators.

I think, if there were a sensible solar unit at an affordable price AND if we had the climate to utilise it at near full capacity, it could work for a few people here. But I can't see it working for most. For those projects I've seen on TV where they've tried to use solar and wind turbines in new eco-buildings to lower the power bills it hasn't been overly successful. You also have to think that for the most part, your return credit for pumping your excess power (if you have any) back to the utility grid is pretty pitiful this end. We aren't geared for people to be able to give power back to the grid in any sensible or usable quantity.
And like you, a lot of our by-laws prevent the erection of wind turbines so the alternatives to power from the national grid is rather limited.


I know the return credit used to be (I looked at solar generation years ago but found out my ROI would be horribly long) paltry, and only for the "generation" portion (for me, that's <40% of the /KWH rate).

There is a solution, if you look hard enough and are skilled enough (that's still a question I haven't answered for myself). Go DIY-ing and you might be surprised.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
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