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RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 8:14:03 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Actually it could be very efficient. It just doesn't make sense to cover acres with nothing but panels. Why not shade parking lots with panels? Why not put panels on top of every flat roofed commercial and industrial structure (think strip malls, Wal-Marts and supermarkets)?

Even if that doesn't make every structure energy independent think how much less energy production would be required by big power plants.


Dom there are many problems still with solar power on a large scale… It is clean but not efficient…40 percent power conversion in most cases which means large areas are required. Solar panels are still very expensive and high maintenance. They are made of fragile materials and must be constantly maintained.

I am just saying... now... solar on a large scale is not practical. But I hope in the near future there will be breakthroughs. I read where there is a paint being developed that will collect energy and convert to electrical power…shingles as well so maybe it will not be long until what you envision will be practical.

Butch

Do the math. For a commercial building the times when it draws the most power is during bright sunny summer days, for cooling, that is also when the cost of power for them is highest. Solar panels would reduce or eliminate their draw off the grid during those peak demand periods.

That alone is enough to make them desirable right now. As the cost per square foot comes down and the MTBF goes up it will become ever more cost effective. 

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 8:21:06 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I would never call you a liar but I would call me skeptical. I wanted to believe you then I could ask what unit you had…how much it cost…and where I could get it…feel free to provide that information so we could look it up online.

I got out my electric bill stubs and checked my average kilowatt hours per month …keep in mind this is electric only not my heating by natural gas. Then I searched the net and checked out 4 different solar power contractors that would show price by KWH per month.

The best below:

My cost would be $27,000 initial outlay for panels...40 panels were needed, if they would fit on my little roof and if I cut down three big oaks shading my house...wonder what that would cost... hate to loose the local oxygen and shade though. Then $75 each for brackets and $650 for controller. I would have to pay for installation... I'm not sure if that was included in the panel prices so unknown... and a maintenance contract if I desired. Hmmm I wonder how much they would charge to remove and re-install if i need to replace the roof.

This for 100 percent of needs 5 hours per day average.

As far as I can tell this does not include storage of any kind... I would think that would add a whole bunch to the cost. I'm guessing the power just goes back in the grid through my system and if I produced more than I used the utility would pay me...and if i used more I would pay.

I would love to know what unit you are using because the above is way too much for me and I am a little above average in income.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/14/2012 9:03:44 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 8:24:24 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The plant you are talking about will power 4,000 homes yet take 50,000 panels and 65 acres of land. On a small scale such as this it will work even if not cost effective... Now imagine powering a city of 250,000... do you think 2,625,000 panels and 4,063 acres practical? What about a city of 4,000,000? You got 65,000 acres handy 50,000,000 panels you can afford?

Butch


For a solar project, that one seems pretty darn big to me... i cant say how cost effective that project is, Nanosolar is foil imprinted so its one of the cheapest solar panels on the market right now.. and i have no idea what energy costs in Spain.. but if it didnt make economic sense, then i doubt they would have done it.. Nanosolar only does big projects or commercial projects, it doesnt do residential (yet?)..

I also never said solar such as this would power entire cities.. But look at a city from above, in many areas its 30 to 40% roofs, you put solar on most of them and that would cut energy consumption by quite a bit.. and combine that with some wind power, some geothermal, etc etc.. then that reduces energy consumption even more.. In 5 or 10 years add in solar panel window shades or solar in windows or solar paint on the sides of homes once new developments are viable and come to market.. you can also put solar panels on vehicles now.. new energy efficient houses are replacing the old leaky ones that are being torn down... etc..

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 8:27:45 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don't know DomKen...check my post to thompson... Pretty rich for my blood... Maybe I just picked the wrong contractor.

I'll bet a lot of the cost is retrofitting existing homes. I'm surprised there are not more new homes built with solar and wind and earth assist heating.

I know there are incentives with tax deduction but not enough to really help. Maybe big corps can afford the luxury of solar power but the vast majority of homeowners can’t. At least me anyway…how about you?

Maybe we can get thompsons’ unit if he would give us some specs to see if it would power our homes.

I'm not stubborn and i truly want to be wrong...just show me the money.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/14/2012 8:28:38 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 8:34:40 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I would love to see more government aid in this area but thompson you know as well as I that will not happen in this political climate.

Germany has been subsidizing the construction of solar power stations do you see our government doing it?

Butch

I dont see that either (other than the tax credits it has in place now), but it could have happened, had the US govt not decided to use all that taxpayer $$$ to start a fraudulent war with Iraq & some of the other waring its done.. Two different countries, two different priorities (or lack thereof)..

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 8:49:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I agree with you as well... I once researched and posted the US defense budget, represented as a percent of GNP, compared to our European allies. If they would raise theirs one percent and we lowered ours one percent the cost savings two America was staggering. At the time of the research Obama gave an estimate of the yearly cost of his new healthcare plan. The savings in our defense budget in ONE year if Europe would pick up their fair share, would pay for 10 years of healthcare.

Wars are expensive.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 9:33:10 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Most of the Utilities in California are contracting with private solar farms. In fact, they are buying it before shovels hit dirt.

However, solar bypasses the old model of centralized production for peak power. Solar is not yet practical for base load. However, it is far cheaper than utilities for those with high usage.

Nobody with any brains is trying to power their house 100% with solar. The goal is to size a system that provides enough power so a homeowner is only buying electricity at the lower two tiers. So the buy all the $.12 & $.14 cent electricity from.the utility but generate their own for the rest so they never have to pay $.30 or $.35.

Now I could talk about time of use billing and get really geeky.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 9:43:37 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I got out my electric bill stubs and checked my average kilowatt hours per month …keep in mind this is electric only not my heating by natural gas. Then I searched the net and checked out 4 different solar power contractors that would show price by KWH per month.

The best below:

My cost would be $27,000 initial outlay for panels...40 panels were needed, if they would fit on my little roof and if I cut down three big oaks shading my house...wonder what that would cost... hate to loose the local oxygen and shade though. Then $75 each for brackets and $650 for controller. I would have to pay for installation... I'm not sure if that was included in the panel prices so unknown... and a maintenance contract if I desired. Hmmm I wonder how much they would charge to remove and re-install if i need to replace the roof.

This for 100 percent of needs 5 hours per day average.

Butch

That is a massive system, how many kw are you using? Are you on a flat rate or tierrd and what are the rates?

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 10:01:24 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		And on the flip side of Michael's question, Butch, how much juice must you be wasting vs. using, that you need something that size?

Maybe you should look at the costs and programs to do some serious energy efficiency upgrades to the house first. Windows, doors, another foot of sprayed in attic insulation, maybe new appliances. I bet you'd see a lot more bang for the buck, when you do find a solar system that would be right for you.



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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 10:09:18 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have seen people cut bills by huge amounts just upgrading ligh bulbs to florecent and led.

We still find people with single pane windows but that isnt a cheap upgrade but it makes a huge improvement on a house.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 10:12:09 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		Agreed. I've probably saved around $30/month by switching to LED's 3 years ago. May not sound like much per month, but that's around $1080 over the course of that 3 years I've saved. Sure, a little pricey to buy, but they have entirely paid for themselves many times over already. Not to mention, I don't need to change them every time I turn around. The things last forever! Well, 15+ years. Good enough for me. :)

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 10:24:46 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I got out my electric bill stubs and checked my average kilowatt hours per month …keep in mind this is electric only not my heating by natural gas. Then I searched the net and checked out 4 different solar power contractors that would show price by KWH per month.

The best below:

My cost would be $27,000 initial outlay for panels...40 panels were needed, if they would fit on my little roof and if I cut down three big oaks shading my house...wonder what that would cost... hate to loose the local oxygen and shade though. Then $75 each for brackets and $650 for controller. I would have to pay for installation... I'm not sure if that was included in the panel prices so unknown... and a maintenance contract if I desired. Hmmm I wonder how much they would charge to remove and re-install if i need to replace the roof.

This for 100 percent of needs 5 hours per day average.

Butch

That is a massive system, how many kw are you using? Are you on a flat rate or tierrd and what are the rates?


Germany was able to forgo building another nuke plant(to meets it`s ever growing levels of consumption)by using that money instead to fund tens of thousands of solar-photo voltaic panels on the southwest facing roofs of customer`s homes.

I built a super-insulated home in NY state with the intention of staying off the grid(at the time NYSEG did`nt even have poles near me anyway) and worked with a Cali company called Realgoodsolar.

A modest system, that met my needs as calculated by them was somewhere between 5 and 10 grand(('1998' dollars).

It would cover a section of my southwest facing roof about 20x20 square.

That and about 50 hours a year of generator driven electricity to top off and maintain the fork-lift batteries would have been enough to live comfortably.

I figured I could live with 1 hour a week of generator noise and add more panels as I could afford them.....lessening the need to run the genny.



http://realgoodssolar.com/newjersey/index.php?Campaign_ID=70160000000XU2O&utm_medium=Advertisement%20-%20Online&9gtype=search&9gkw=real%20solar&9gad=25800582461.1&9gpla=&9gag=4571904581&_kk=real%20solar&_kt=91a7e015-6a1b-401a-be8d-6628d1e595eb&gclid=CNOAxJep0LMCFY-d4AodxiMA5g

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 5:19:51 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I don't know DomKen...check my post to thompson... Pretty rich for my blood... Maybe I just picked the wrong contractor.
I'll bet a lot of the cost is retrofitting existing homes. I'm surprised there are not more new homes built with solar and wind and earth assist heating.
I know there are incentives with tax deduction but not enough to really help. Maybe big corps can afford the luxury of solar power but the vast majority of homeowners can’t. At least me anyway…how about you?
Maybe we can get thompsons’ unit if he would give us some specs to see if it would power our homes.
I'm not stubborn and i truly want to be wrong...just show me the money.
Butch


Save up and start small. From what I've read, the initial installation costs have to do with the electrical system, and not so much with the physical structural system. That might be something you can do yourself and have an electrician come in for the electrical hook up. It's entirely possible that you would be able to add to the system yourself after the initial install.

If you really want to go solar, and don't have $27k to drop, don't drop $27k. Every $$ you drop into a system is another $$ closer you get to solar being your main supply. As you continue to earn your pay and your utility bills start showing a savings, more panels can be installed. There is nothing requiring you to set up a massive system right off the bat. If you were talking geothermal, then, yeah, that's not really something you can easily add to over the years. But, solar can be a patchwork job, adding as you go. Just make sure that you size the electrical system for the initial install to take into account the upgrades/additions. If your roof isn't brand new, you might want to start there, and work in any structural upgrades that might be necessary to handle the weight of a system added to your current structure. I don't know how old you are, but a new roof should last 20-40 years, and perhaps even longer when you consider that it'll be shielded, eventually, by solar panels. It may not be a concern of yours once it's done.

Something else to look at: generation reimbursement from the utility. If you produce more than you use at any given time, you either need a battery bank to store it for use at lower production/higher use times, or you send it back to the grid, pulling from the grid when your demands are lower than your generation. I don't know if anything has changed, but years ago, power companies would only reimburse for generation costs, and not pay you for the distribution. So, your effective reimbursement may not be the effective rate you are paying. For instance, at the house I'm renovating (not living there... yet), my October cycle charge was $28.89 for 216 KWH. That breaks down to $0.13375/KWH. My power generation charge was only $11.80 ($0.54630/KWH). The rest, $17.09 ($0.07912/KWH) is distribution-related. If I were to have used 216 KWH from the grid over the course of the month, but over-generated 216 KWH during sunlight hours, sending the rest back to the grid, I'd only be reimbursed $11.80.

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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 6:51:12 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't know DomKen...check my post to thompson... Pretty rich for my blood... Maybe I just picked the wrong contractor.

I'll bet a lot of the cost is retrofitting existing homes. I'm surprised there are not more new homes built with solar and wind and earth assist heating.

I know there are incentives with tax deduction but not enough to really help. Maybe big corps can afford the luxury of solar power but the vast majority of homeowners can’t. At least me anyway…how about you?

Maybe we can get thompsons’ unit if he would give us some specs to see if it would power our homes.

I'm not stubborn and i truly want to be wrong...just show me the money.

Butch

So it might not be effective for you at this time. Now think, how much of suburban and urban areas have no trees that shade the roofs and are not limited by smallish roofs. Consider the roof of the grcoery store or Wal-Mart type store you shop at..

It seems like you're obsessed with can a residence go off grid without a lot of hassle. The answer is no and likely will remain no for some time. However a reasonable cost solar installation can let many people substantially reduce their energy bills and their carbon footprint right now.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&keyword=solar%20panel&Ns=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=SEARCHALL

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 8:45:20 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Nobody with any brains is trying to power their house 100% with solar


thompsonx does what are you saying...lol

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 8:48:19 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		According to my bills I averaged a little over 1,000 KWH a month... If my 42 year old daughter that moved in with me would turn off a light now and then I'm sure i would be around 900...

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 8:56:02 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		DomKen... if it cost me $27,000 could the local grocery store afford it?

Look I do believe in the next ten years new advances in solar power and the continued reduction in cell reliability size and cost will make it economical. Just not now.

As a side note I wonder how utility donations to politicians have and will in the future slow alternate energy advances? It seems to me if cheap free power generation becomes readily available it would destroy profits for them.

The above is why we as Americans seem to be always a step behind more progressive nations.

But if the Federal Government tries to subsidize alternate energy directly they will be opposed by the Republican party…so no hope there in the near future.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 8:57:58 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, the easy peasy way right now is use more natural gas and propane, cuz we have so much of it, and fracking is releasing the stores, so thats what is gonna be concentrated on.

The American people are not going to give a fuck until it is way past time to do something about something before they do something about something. 

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 9:02:16 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I've A 90 % furnace....14 seer air...max blown cellulous attic insulation. I could benefit from new windows and water heater that’s for sure.

As far as the usage… I think I’m just a little over average...not sure.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/15/2012 9:10:40 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Solar Energy - 11/15/2012 9:08:35 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The American people are not going to give a fuck until it is way past time to do something about something before they do something about something.


I agree... why the hell is that. I've personally been harping on energy Independence and alternate energy since the 1970's. None of my friends seem to be interested in making a sacrifice to achieve it.

Now I’m too old to recover an outlay…lots of people my age in that situation…but I am thinking of my children and grand children

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 60
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