RE: Solar Energy

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Solar Energy

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Solar Energy

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 9:14:28 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Solar right now, at least in California can be had for .26 a kw, flat rate for 20 years.. That is a zero down lease.

That sounds like the number our salesman had. The thing is, we already live an energy efficient enough lifestyle that we almost never even get into the tier 3 range of comparable cost to that, much less the tier 4 and 5 pricing where solar is already cheaper. It's only a matter of time, of course, before those utility rates rise, and adding panels becomes the good choice. By then, the cost of solar may have come down a bit lower, and the technology will certainly have advanced.

I am in the solar biz, who was it that pitched you?

As for the cost dropping, its flattening out and the technogy is fairly stable at this point. More relevant is the loss of tge 30% tax credit in 2016 meaning. No matter what improvements we see, it will not equal that tax credit.

But you are right, if you dont go out of tier 2 and dont see your usage increasing, the bottom two tiers are subsidized, stick with em!

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 11/13/2012 9:18:20 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 21

RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 9:22:09 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Solar? Curious how people view it.

Also, post your state and how much you pay per kw.

In TX where i am right now, it can vary, people can sign contracts with various power providers so it really depends on when you do that and what prices are quoted and how long you are willing to be locked in.. so i dont know what the cost is (apparently summer is the worst time to negotiate cuz thats the highest use time of year)..

I view solar as expensive. If you want to diy to save some money, then from what i have read, you wont get any state "incentive$" cuz one requirement seems to be that the system must be "professionally installed"..

I know in some cities/counties in CA, the permit fee to be allowed to install solar on your property can be quite high, one city was something like $14,000 (way up there for a reasonable sized system) just for the permit.. there was some bad press about the fees so some cities dropped their prices.. considerably in some cities.. so these greedy cities were gouging people! In CA being green aint cheap..

Also, with the latest building code changed in CA (Jan 2012), its required for new construction to prewire for solar to be installed even if the system never is..

I know panel mfrs will claim their panels have a certain number of years of life.. but i take their claims with lots of grains of salt.. If mfrs told the truth, Consumer Reports wouldnt be in business trying to keep em honest and telling consumers the truth..

I also dont like those solar lease arrangements.. I see those as scam-ish.. I dont like leasing anything anyway..

If I were to do solar, I would buy peel & stick panels and "install" them on a metal or flat roof myself.. I can peel n stick as good as any "pro" solar installer!

It would really depend on the cost of the panels and if I felt the pay back was good enough for me.. i cant say at this point.. it is something I plan to look into in the near future tho, just not right now..

Why do you ask??

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 22

RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 9:27:50 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
That sounds more like it. When I saw the "Even dams are typically designed to last only about 50 years.", the first thought that went thru my head was "What the FUCK does the author know?"

They didnt say 50 years without maint, they just said 50 years. That's basically saying after 50 years, it's toast.

You've never owned a house with a basement or a swimming pool, have you.

K.

One of each, never both at the same time.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 23

RE: Solar Energy - 11/13/2012 11:39:29 PM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

I like solar to a point. It's fine for camping and a few of the projects I've put together on my workbench. I would not want to have to rely on it year round for all my electrical needs, though.

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 24

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 6:50:22 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

I like solar to a point. It's fine for camping and a few of the projects I've put together on my workbench. I would not want to have to rely on it year round for all my electrical needs, though.

-SD-

Most folks into home Solar aren't into that either and that is misunderstood. My commercial building could accomodate 4000SF +/- of panels on the roof. I would be a net producer. That's right kids, I'd be able to produce a lot more KWh than I used in a given year. The bean counters tell me that the payback is about 7 years and the total local life span is at least coupla decades.
Any time you can invest in real property or an improvement that pays for itself in 7 years and lasts significantly longer, it's a very good investment.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 25

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 7:16:46 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

I like solar to a point. It's fine for camping and a few of the projects I've put together on my workbench. I would not want to have to rely on it year round for all my electrical needs, though.

-SD-

I have been using solar photo voltaic and solar water heater for the past 25 years that I have lived off grid.

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 26

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 7:25:25 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Solar produces energy during peak demand when it is most expensive to buy or produce. What has made solar a cost effective solution for SOME homeowners is what is clalled "grid tied systems" meaning the homeowners system can flow excess production back onto the utilities grid, using it like a battery. So, they now have the stability of their old utility plus independence.

In California, most utilities charge a homeowner more per kw as their usage rises, the opposite of Costco. So someone with low usage might be paying $.13/15 per kw. For them, solar makes little sense. However, many, because of high usage, pay up to $.35 per kw. For them, solar can make sense.

Most cities in CA now charge less than $500 for a permit and issue them in one day.

Buying verses leasing all depends on how you use your money, both have advantages. CA used to be 90% purchase, its now flipped and most are leased. We can lease a system for less than a high average bill, so no debt, flat rate, and the resale value of a solar home. So, if you play with your money, expect to move in less than 10 years, etc. leasing is the way to go. At the same time the ROI of taking what was money you had to give the utilities and now you can leverage it with a fat tax credit and invest in your home makes sense too. People with CDs earning 2% love buying solar.

As to cost of buying, spending $14,000 would get a system that would produce 300/360 kw plus you get at $4,200 tax credit. So if you are in a high tier, that system is producing $1,300 worth of electricity a year. Factor in a 6% rise in rates which is the average, so in 10 years, thats about $18,000 (tax free too!) for a $9,700 investment, plus equity gained in the house (also tax free) due to value of the system. Not bad. Leasing isnt as dramatic a savings but you dont have to spend cash, or incure any debt, just pay less. I just put a 6kw system on a house in San Francisco, thats about $30,000 and they didnt have to lay out any cash or have the debt.

However, if you are not in the high tiers, the math isnt as good.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 11/14/2012 7:33:13 AM >

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 27

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 9:19:23 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Most cities in CA now charge less than $500 for a permit and issue them in one day.

Then that took a couple of years to get those cities to come to their senses.. what does that say about the people running them? No wonder CA is in such bad shape.. Just sayin'

And actually, that cost is still high cuz the company that studied the permit fees to the cost for the cities/counties said it should be about half that $500.. that company was the one that raised hell about the ridiculous fees they were charging people.. I wonder how many sheeple just paid tens of thousands in fees tho..

ok, I plugged in a TX zip code into www.powertochoose.org & got rates of 5.5 cents for a short 3 month winter contract to 15.1 cents with 289 "offers"/choices.. Compared to your tied grid thingie of 35 cents

I guess these are low rates (I got the impression tho that people here were bitching tho about the free market system making their rates too high from the previous govt controlled system)..

eta- soon it could be cheap to do solar, solar paint is in development and also solar printing (like on a 3D printer or inkjet type printer)..

Solar Pocket Factory lets you print solar panels in just a few seconds http://www.ecochunk.com/2931/2012/10/08/solar-pocket-factory-lets-you-print-solar-panels-in-just-a-few-seconds/

MIT demos flexible solar panels printed on paper http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20078431-1/mit-demos-flexible-solar-panels-printed-on-paper/

< Message edited by tj444 -- 11/14/2012 9:53:43 AM >

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 28

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 10:05:31 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Considering panels have a useful life of 20/30 years, that is a lot better for a homeoner than buying all their energy at retail.

My parents have one or two of them on their roof....don't know the cost side on it but from spring to autumn they only get warm water via that....so on rainy days with less or no sun they are either lucky at times to still have a lil bit left from the day before...or just hurry up with getting their cold shower over....during the rest of the year they add the normal power supply to it....

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 29

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 11:26:26 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't think solar is very efficient, at least for large scale generation. I takes far too much room for the return in power.

Butch

Actually it could be very efficient. It just doesn't make sense to cover acres with nothing but panels. Why not shade parking lots with panels? Why not put panels on top of every flat roofed commercial and industrial structure (think strip malls, Wal-Marts and supermarkets)?

Even if that doesn't make every structure energy independent think how much less energy production would be required by big power plants.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 30

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 12:10:37 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don't think solar is very efficient, at least for large scale generation. I takes far too much room for the return in power.

Butch

Actually it could be very efficient. It just doesn't make sense to cover acres with nothing but panels. Why not shade parking lots with panels? Why not put panels on top of every flat roofed commercial and industrial structure (think strip malls, Wal-Marts and supermarkets)?

Even if that doesn't make every structure energy independent think how much less energy production would be required by big power plants.

Nanosolar Completes 10.63 MW Solar Installation in Valencia Region of Spain

San Jose, Calif. – November 14, 2012 – Nanosolar Inc. today announced its largest solar photovoltaic (PV) installation to date, a 10.63 MW project in the town of Alfarrasi, which is located in the Valencia region of Spain. Developed by Smartenergy Invest AG and Advanta Capital Ltd., the new solar field is now the region’s largest PV power plant to date. The plant was energized earlier this month and is expected to produce energy to power 4,000 households per year.
http://www.nanosolar.com/detail_press/nanosolar-completes-10-63-mw-solar-installation-in-valencia-region-of-spain/
About Nanosolar
Nanosolar designs, engineers, and manufactures innovative thin-film solar cells and panels based on printing CIGS (Copper, Indium, Gallium, Selenium) proprietary inks on low-cost aluminum foil. The company’s current product, the Nanosolar Utility Panel, enables competitively priced peak power and installed system economics at utility-scale. Nanosolar operates the industry’s first roll-to-roll solar cell printing factory at its headquarters in San Jose, Calif., and a panel-assembly factory in Luckenwalde, Germany.

< Message edited by tj444 -- 11/14/2012 12:11:49 PM >

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 31

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 4:21:45 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Considering panels have a useful life of 20/30 years, that is a lot better for a homeoner than buying all their energy at retail.

My parents have one or two of them on their roof....don't know the cost side on it but from spring to autumn they only get warm water via that....so on rainy days with less or no sun they are either lucky at times to still have a lil bit left from the day before...or just hurry up with getting their cold shower over....during the rest of the year they add the normal power supply to it....

The day/night water heater company(a very large nationwide company) got their start by putting insulated tanks to store solar heated water overnight so one could have a hot shower in the morning. This was in the days before cheap electricity and natural gas was available to every household. When it did become available the day/night water heater company began making powered water heaters.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

Post #: 32

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 5:23:59 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Actually it could be very efficient. It just doesn't make sense to cover acres with nothing but panels. Why not shade parking lots with panels? Why not put panels on top of every flat roofed commercial and industrial structure (think strip malls, Wal-Marts and supermarkets)?

Even if that doesn't make every structure energy independent think how much less energy production would be required by big power plants.

Dom there are many problems still with solar power on a large scale… It is clean but not efficient…40 percent power conversion in most cases which means large areas are required. Solar panels are still very expensive and high maintenance. They are made of fragile materials and must be constantly maintained.

I am just saying... now... solar on a large scale is not practical. But I hope in the near future there will be breakthroughs. I read where there is a paint being developed that will collect energy and convert to electrical power…shingles as well so maybe it will not be long until what you envision will be practical.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 33

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 5:33:20 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

The plant you are talking about will power 4,000 homes yet take 50,000 panels and 65 acres of land. On a small scale such as this it will work even if not cost effective... Now imagine powering a city of 250,000... do you think 2,625,000 panels and 4,063 acres practical? What about a city of 4,000,000? You got 65,000 acres handy 50,000,000 panels you can afford?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 34

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 5:35:03 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Dom there are many problems still with solar power on a large scale… It is clean but not efficient…40 percent power conversion in most cases which means large areas are required.

What is the effeciency of fossil fuel powered plants?

quote:

Solar panels are still very expensive and high maintenance.

What is the roi on solar pannels vs. fossil fuel powered plants? High maintainance....what maintainance do they need?

quote:

They are made of fragile materials and must be constantly maintained.

I have been using them for the past 25 years and I have had no maintainance at all as for fragil I often get winds in the 50 mph range and no damage. I hae had hale storms and snow still no damage to my photovoltaic pannels or my water heater pannels. Someone has been pulling your leg.

quote:

I am just saying... now... solar on a large scale is not practical.

This is just pure unmitigated bullshit.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/14/2012 5:38:22 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 35

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 5:40:34 PM

JMG05

Posts: 16
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

If you need proof that solar panels are effective and can work on a large scale go visit Germany. The German government subsidized solar panels years ago and today they are widely used, reducing the cost of energy and because of the wide range use have become affordable to the point of not having to be subsidized any longer. They are made to last years so there truly is no maintaince involved.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 36

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 5:50:25 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

If it were efficient it would already be with us... If you are telling me your system powers your home 100 percent 100 percent of the time and was low cost you are full of crap and you know it.

I just gave an example of a large scale solar energy production facility and the material and area needed. Do you deny these facts?

I am talking large scale not an individual home...thousands of homes... it makes a difference.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 37

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 5:57:21 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I believe most of those solar parks are huge... hundreds of acres... millions of panels...but you are right I understand solar and wind will soon they will be producing almost half of their power. I do wish we could afford to do it as well... but still too expensive for bottom line utilities to forgo cheaper fuels in America. It just does not make sense to them yet.

I don't agree but I don't own a utility. I'm always for green renewable energy but I think we will be more likely to stick with wind if anything in the near future.

I am not putting down solar... I think it great...I am just a realist and understand the dynamics of power production in the US as opposed to Germany.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/14/2012 6:02:45 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to JMG05)

Post #: 38

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 6:02:38 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If it were efficient it would already be with us... If you are telling me your system powers your home 100 percent 100 percent of the time and was low cost you are full of crap and you know it.

I live more than 6 miles from the nearest power line so yes my system powers my home 100 percent of the time. My cost was 100% recovered in just under four years. I have been using this system for the past 25 years.

quote:

I just gave an example of a large scale solar energy production facility and the material and area needed. Do you deny these facts?

Your example is flawed.

quote:

I am talking large scale not an individual home...thousands of homes... it makes a difference.

Butch

No it does not.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 39

RE: Solar Energy - 11/14/2012 6:09:14 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Your example is flawed.

In what way...I am not flawed if we are talking the large scale facilities such as those in Germany... But I do agree with you in that solar has a place in individual homes and if enough people were to install them the price would come down...and new industry would start up to cover demand.

I would love to see more government aid in this area but thompson you know as well as I that will not happen in this political climate.

Germany has been subsidizing the construction of solar power stations do you see our government doing it?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Solar Energy

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109