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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 8:03:44 PM   
TheHeretic


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By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

By the President: Abraham Lincoln



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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 8:07:53 PM   
LonDom61


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Jeez, should we (atheists, I mean), be...what? allowed?? (or allow ourselves) to celebrate Thanksgiving?

Whatever the origin (pilgrims, Washington's proclamation), it's essentially a harvest festival. As celebrated by many cultures around the world. By people holding to different currently popular superstitions--er, I mean religions--and older outmoded ones too (ie "pagan"...but that's not just one group...unless you mean "followers of gods other than Jehovah).

I'm sure there are harvest festivals in Europe and Asia, so only the name Thanksgiving and some of the trappings are specific to the North American holiday.

So...can or should we atheists be able to celebrate the fact that there's apparently gonna be enough to eat for another year?

Hell yes.

As I read through the thread I thought I'd quote in agreement with a number of posts. But this one gets my vote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

There is an argument that thanksgiving should be exclusively for atheists.

As an atheist I give thanks to all of the wonderful people in my life that have made the previous year bearable.

I celebrate thanksgiving by telling my friends and family how much they mean to me. God has nothing to do with my reason for giving thanks - they do.

If you want to pray to your imaginary friend, fill your boots. But I believe, deeply, that your thanks are going in the wrong direction.

And as for Christmas 2012 having anything to fucking do with the birth of Jesus... get a fucking grip. These days the religious significance of Christmas is buried deep beneath an orgy of deeply irreligious consumerism.

Which is, of course, what makes it so fucking awesome, and why as an Atheist I have no bother celebrating it.



Not just the people in my life, though. The people who make up this great, complex society of ours. I heard an excellent article read on a podcast. How we should give thought and thanks to the farmers, the soldiers, the scientists, the doctors, etc. etc. for actually bringing us the benefits that God too often gets the credit for.

And religious folks...you could do worse than at least sharing the thanks you aim at the sky with that list of people.


= = =

And Christmas? Christians didn't invent having a party at the end of the year. They DID co-opt the date and a lot of the fixings (all part of slapping their label on something folks were gonna celebrate anyway).

Both harvest time and solstice (yay, the nights aren't gonna keep gettin' longer & longer! Let's party!) are good opportunities that we, as humans, have for millenia chosen to gather with friends and family. I'm cool with both. I'll just do my best to ignore the Xian overlay on both.




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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 8:13:23 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Now we know that atheists get their panties in a bunch over Christmas, but shouldn't a holiday established specifically to give thanks to the Divine bother them even more?


No. There is plenty of value in being thankful for what you have and participating in a cultural experience, quite apart from religion.

ETA: Actually, the "cultural experience" argument also applies to Christmas, which is why I celebrate that holiday too, instead of getting my panties in a bunch.

Pam

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 11/22/2012 8:15:48 PM >


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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 8:15:58 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The question is; should atheists, those who disbelieve the existence of ANY God, in ANY form, partake in a holiday created by the government specifically to recognize and give thanks to Almighty God?


It wasnt created by the government. Its been officially sanctioned by the government. Thanksgiving is a name of a holiday that has been around longer than the US government.

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 8:20:15 PM   
metamorfosis


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FR

I dunno. Should atheists use U.S. currency, which bears the words "In God We Trust"? It seems kind of silly to argue that they shouldn't.

Pam

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 11/22/2012 8:23:16 PM >


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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 8:54:48 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Regarding the OP.
There have been harvest festivals as long as there has been agriculture.

Saying that only christians Should support the celebration of Thanksgiving makes about as much sense as saying that no Christians live anywhere but the US and Canada. (Yaknow, the ONLY 2 places where it is celebrated?)

I mean if you think about it, it's really a nonsensical question.



What's nonsensical, Hill, is claiming that the original post made any mention of Christianity. Are you defining atheism strictly according to a rejection of Christian belief? Then by your standard, I would be one, because while my grandfather being a preacher, and a couple teenage years incarcerated in a baptist school, left some lingering marks (or scars), I don't consider myself to be a Christian. I'm a casual Deist, who will lift what works for me from any system of belief that speaks to me. I was an atheist only briefly, and found it be incompatible with the spiritual aspect of my character.

The question is; should atheists, those who disbelieve the existence of ANY God, in ANY form, partake in a holiday created by the government specifically to recognize and give thanks to Almighty God?

Please see the following post, where I'll be adding Lincoln's Proclamation on the subject.

The OP is "Should Aetheists participate in Thanksgiving"
I say they can if they want to. There have been harvest festivals practiced by every agrarian civilization on the planet for thousands of years. "Thanksgiving" was celebrated on this continent for well over a century before there was a US.
Are you saying that because some Deist president said "OK, The harvest festival is now officially 'Give Thanks to God Day'" they should stop celebrating it?
Think about it. If they stopped celebrating because someone said it's now a Religious holiday, that would imply that they care about the tenets of that religion.

It's a paradox. You approach an Aetheist and say "AHA, you're celebrating Thanksgiving which is a religious holiday you hypocrite" and the Aetheist looks and says "Since I don't believe in your God, It is, by definition, not a religious holiday to me.

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 8:59:28 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Now we know that atheists get their panties in a bunch over Christmas, but shouldn't a holiday established specifically to give thanks to the Divine bother them even more?


If we are an atheist that does not get her panties in a bunch over Christmas (umm. . . there is a Charlie Brown Christmas movie on right now in fact), can we just go ahead with our Thanksgiving enjoyment and enjoyment in the meaning of the upcoming holidays (peace on Earth and goodwill to all men) and be left alone instead of having to do all of this existential teenaged angst?
 
Charlie Brown: Isn't there anyone who knows what Christmas is all about?
Linus Van Pelt: Sure, Charlie Brown, I can tell you what Christmas is all about.
Linus Van Pelt: Lights, please.
Linus Van Pelt: "And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, 'Fear not: for behold, I bring unto you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the City of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.' And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God, and saying, 'Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.'"
Linus Van Pelt: That's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown.

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 9:07:05 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS

Oh, and will someone please explain the CHRISTMAS PICKLE?



I LOVE the Christmas Pickle!

I would have to look at the little tag to tell you about it.  My mother has it on her tree and she is 800 miles away. 

Personally I think that it came about because some kids were saying they were bored and so the parents. . . well. . . you get the idea. 

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 9:34:36 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Oh, and will someone please explain the CHRISTMAS PICKLE?


http://german.about.com/library/blgermyth11.htm

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 9:38:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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Hill, all this negativity is just the filter the easily offended (and those forever looking to be offended) are applying on their own. I've quoted two Mt. Rushmore rated Presidents linking the holiday specifically to giving thanks to the Divine.

If atheists don't like being described as having their panties in a bunch, then they need to rinse the sand out of their vaginas, about that too. Hell, we've got one guy posting in here who can't even use the name of the central figure in one of the planet's most popular religions. That's corncob up the ass territory.

Should atheists participate. Simple enough question.

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 9:48:06 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Hill, all this negativity is just the filter the easily offended (and those forever looking to be offended) are applying on their own. I've quoted two Mt. Rushmore rated Presidents linking the holiday specifically to giving thanks to the Divine.

If atheists don't like being described as having their panties in a bunch, then they need to rinse the sand out of their vaginas, about that too. Hell, we've got one guy posting in here who can't even use the name of the central figure in one of the planet's most popular religions. That's corncob up the ass territory.

Should atheists participate. Simple enough question.

sheesh.. the world does not revolve around what 2 former Presidents said.. Canada has Thanksgiving and Christmas (as do other countries) also but nothing to do with US Presidents opinions.. Canadas Thanksgiving is in October so its even on a totally different day..

eta- btw, your previous link to fargles War on Christmas thread has nothing to do with atheists since fargle is Jewish, not an atheist..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 11/22/2012 10:00:24 PM >


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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 9:54:25 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If atheists don't like being described as having their panties in a bunch, then they need to rinse the sand out of their vaginas, about that too.


Well, technically I didn't say that I disliked being described as "having my panties in a bunch". I simply explained that it isn't true, and why.

For the record, I'm not so much insulted as amused that you think so (as, I'm confident, you would be if I were to describe all theists as having three heads.) I'm also left wondering where are all these atheists getting so upset about Christmas, because I've never met one.

But in case my answer wasn't clear enough before: atheists should participate in Thanksgiving, or any other U.S. holiday (religious or not) if they want to.

Pam


< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 11/22/2012 10:07:24 PM >


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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 9:55:55 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Oh, and will someone please explain the CHRISTMAS PICKLE?


http://german.about.com/library/blgermyth11.htm

so its a fake legend??? A marketing gimick!..

My mother was from Germany and there was no pickle on our tree.. (all pickles were in jars in the cold room)..

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/22/2012 11:40:40 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Should atheists participate. Simple enough question.

Not if they're going to bitch about it.

K.

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/23/2012 2:49:05 AM   
DomKen


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Yesterday I was gratefull that this country allows me the freedom to not believe in religion and allows me to say just how ignorant people who attack me for my lack of faith truly are.

It is too bad that the moderators here won't allow me that as well.

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/23/2012 5:29:31 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Hill, all this negativity is just the filter the easily offended (and those forever looking to be offended) are applying on their own. I've quoted two Mt. Rushmore rated Presidents linking the holiday specifically to giving thanks to the Divine.

If atheists don't like being described as having their panties in a bunch, then they need to rinse the sand out of their vaginas, about that too. Hell, we've got one guy posting in here who can't even use the name of the central figure in one of the planet's most popular religions. That's corncob up the ass territory.

Should atheists participate. Simple enough question.


My answer was based on a pure philisophical argument of logic.
It doesn't matter who says "This century plus old holiday is as of today officially to celebrate X"
If you don't believe in X, then for you, the holiday still holds its previous meaning.


Remember, in the OP, you said " but shouldn't a holiday established specifically to give thanks to the Divine bother them even more?"

Actually, harvest festivals are thousands of years old and celebrated worldwide and the celebration of "Thanksgiving" vastly predates both presidential proclamations.

Ergo, your statement in quotes above is invalid. It was not established to give thanks to the Divine. It was proclaimed (hijacked some would claim) a coupla centuries later.


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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/23/2012 6:14:00 AM   
TheHeretic


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And how old is the belief in God or gods, as opposed to the "just happened," philosophy, Hill?

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/23/2012 6:22:23 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And how old is the belief in God or gods, as opposed to the "just happened," philosophy, Hill?

Nearly every known culture has a "Creation Myth". As they tend to be mutually exclusive, one of them might be true but the rest obviously must be myths.

I'm not certain what you are asking. I'm assuming you are asking when modern Cosmology emerged as an alternative to religious dogma.
I guess that would be Copernicus in 1543. His initial idea was published as early as 1514.

One thing you have to realize is that a lot (probably most) of the cultures who celebrated a harvest festival were not monotheistic. To some of them, they would make an offering to an appropriate deity but in some, the harvest festival was kind of like a TGIF for another backbreaking year of raising enough food to make it thru the winter.
On friday after work, most guys don't "Give Thanks" to their boss when they belly up to the bar and yell "Harry, gimme a cold one, it's been a rough damn week".
To a lot of folks the harvest festival was a case of "It's been a rough summer but we got the crops in. Let's party."

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 11/23/2012 6:33:52 AM >


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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/23/2012 7:12:28 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
To a lot of folks the harvest festival was a case of "It's been a rough summer but we got the crops in. Let's party."

Wasn't that the original meaning of the "harvest festival" before the religious enclaves hi-jacked it and turned it into something to fit their beliefs?

For many millenia, long before most 'modern' religions ever came into being, people celebrated the hard work of the farmers and those that toiled to bring in the goodies for everyone in the community to enjoy.

Alas, these days, it's either labelled as Pagan or so embroiled in some religion as to have lost it's real meaning (ie: Praise to a god rather than praise to the people who grew and harvested it).

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RE: Should atheists participate in Thanksgiving? - 11/23/2012 7:13:49 AM   
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quote:

Actually thanksgiving was started after the slaughter of a tribe celebrating the Green Corn Celebration. These people were shot and clubbed to death. The women and children that huddled in the long house were burned alive. The next day the Governor of the Massachussets Bay Colony declared a day of thanksgiving because over 700 people had been slaughtered. Days of thanksgiving where held after each massacre. George Washington finally said only 1 day of Thanksgiving per year should be held. Later Lincoln declared a national holiday to lift moral during the Civil War.

There is no religious basis for thanksgiving, nor moral basis for it either IMO.


While I do enjoy a more typical American Thanksgiving (sans football), the Thanksgiving that means the most to me was the one my mother, brother and I participated in the National Day of Mourning in Plymouth, MA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Mourning_%28United_States_protest%29

...The United American Indians of New England (UAINE) organized their protest to bring publicity to the continued misrepresentation of Native American and colonial experience. They believed that people needed to be educated about what happened when the Pilgrims arrived in North America.

A century ago heavy immigration brought millions of southern and eastern Europeans to the United States. Educators and civic groups thought it necessary to assimilate the new citizens. The new arrivals were taught to view the Pilgrims as models for their own families. The tale of the "First Thanksgiving" was an essential element of this curriculum. The story of the Native Americans and Pilgrims sharing a meal of turkey became part of United States tradition. The story tells of the mutually beneficial relationship between these groups.

UAINE, by contrast, says that the Pilgrims did not find a new and empty land. Every inch of land they claimed was Indian land. They also say that the Pilgrims immigrated as part of a commercial venture and that they introduced sexism, racism, anti-homosexual bigotry, jails, and the class system.[1]

Governor John Winthrop proclaimed the first official "Day of Thanksgiving" in 1637 to celebrate the return of men that had gone to Mystic, Connecticut to fight against the Pequot, an action that resulted in the deaths of more than 700 Pequot women, children, and men, which their people called a massacre. In 1863, during the American Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln authorized that the fourth Thursday of November be set aside to give thanks and praise for the nation's blessings. Thanksgiving became part of American culture.

UAINE believes that the Native American and colonial experience continue to be misrepresented. It asks why the "First Thanksgiving" was not celebrated or related back to the first colony at Jamestown. According to UAINE, the circumstances at Jamestown were too terrible to be used as a national myth. The settlers turned to cannibalism to survive. The UAINE used the National Day of Mourning to educate people about the history of the Wampanoag people. UAINE representatives say the only true element of the Thanksgiving story is that the pilgrims would not have survived their first years in New England without the aid of the Wampanoag.[2]


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